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1 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 7:41:58am

1. INN is a crappy racist ultra-right source.

2. Carlos Latuff is an antisemite but not a proven Holocaust denier.

2 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 7:45:05am

re: #1 Wash Rush's mouth with a soap.

3. Also, for what it's worth: [Link: freebeacon.com...]

Rae Abileah, a spokeswoman for Code Pink, which is organizing the Occupy AIPAC protest, claims ”Latuff in no way is working for Occupy AIPAC. He submitted some cartoons that were posted to our site because of their clear messaging about AIPAC and war on Iran. We had no idea about his participation in an International Holocaust Cartoon Contest, and in fact before today I was unaware such a horrific competition ever existed. This is problematic and we obviously condemn any Holocaust-denial. May the memory of my relatives who perished in the Shoa be a blessing.” She stood by her organization’s criticism of AIPAC.

Occupy AIPAC is still a bunch of doofuses, but let's be accurate.

3 Randall Gross  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 7:47:43am

Good info as we try to track the prop and the agit.

4 RoadWarrior  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 10:29:08am

Randall, you are engaging in sophistry.

If the cartoonist made a submission to the Holocaust denial competition in Iran, then the cartoonist has chosen to move the burden of proof to himself.

Common sense.

5 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 10:34:32am

re: #4 RoadWarrior

Randall, you are engaging in sophistry.

If the cartoonist made a submission to the Holocaust denial competition in Iran, then the cartoonist has chosen to move the burden of proof to himself.

Common sense.

First of all, it's probably not Randall you would want to address. (Duh.)

Second, stating a plain fact that there is no evidence of Latuff being a denier is not engaging in sophistry. The cartoons he submitted were not of a denial nature. So his participation in the "International Holocaust Cartoon Competition" does not prove him to be a denier. Only an antisemite.

Common sense.

6 RoadWarrior  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 11:21:00am

Apologies, Randall.

Yes, I should have addressed my remarks to Sergey.

Yes, "Wash Rush", his cartoons did not deny the Holocaust.

However, if he supported the event by participating in it, that is enough to squarely place the burden of proof on him.

Again, common sense...and fair play.

7 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 11:23:02am

re: #6 RoadWarrior

I agree, it is common sense and fair play not to call him a Holocaust denier, just an antisemite.

8 What, me worry?  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 11:26:41am

In this case, I'm not sure what "proven Holocaust denier" means. I found a whole lot of his cartoons online. Most deal with the disputed territories and are anti-Israel and anti-Semitic, but this one teeters on Holocaust denial.

Image: Carlos_Latuff.jpg

I don't think one has to make statements like "the Holocaust didn't exist" or similar to say they aren't Holocaust deniers. So I'm calling him one. If I'm wrong, I'll apologize.

9 Sophia77  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 11:30:34am

It's interesting that Rae Abileah, the spokesperson for Code Poke, hadn't heard of the Holocaust Cartoon Contest in Iran.

This was pretty hard to miss for people at all interesting in Middle Eastern politics.

It kind of reinforces my contention that much anti-Israel sentiment is driven by sheer ignorance.

For example I saw a comment on FB yesterday to the effect that Zionism means that Jews are considered a race.

This is clearly absurd. In fact, a core element of antisemitism is the contention that Jews do constitute a race. So what we're seeing is a form of antisemitism projected onto Zionism, which does state that Jews constitute a NATION, with or without national land or borders - something that transcends religious belief, as well as race or nationality, which is based on shared history, languages, origin myths and culture and also the shared experience of being persecuted, expelled, stripped of land and status and routinely humiliated.

Now, the person making the claim that Zionism = the claim that Jews are a RACE is not a bad person. She is a misinformed person, a proPalestinian, but she is unconsciously echoing real antisemitism.

Education is a major key here. Propaganda against Israel and Jews is both effective and of long standing. It's difficult to counter it but it's vital.

10 Sophia77  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 11:32:23am

PS aaarrgghhhh. I meant, people "interested" in Modern Middle Eastern politics; who should surely know about Iran and the cartoon contest.

One wonders how common this degree of ignorance really is? I suspect it's vast.

11 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 11:34:13am

re: #8 Madge

To be a Holocaust denier one must deny the Holocaust. It's that simple. Whether it is done directly, or by trying to sneakily cast doubt on established history doesn't matter, indeed. But there has to be some act of denial, at least.

I don't know if Latuff is a denier in his heart of hearts, but his cartoon output doesn't contain denial (at least not known to me), altho it contains plenty of antisemitism. This is the meaning of "not a proven Holocaust denier" - he might be one, because antisemites often are, but there's no actual evidence of that. (The cartoon you point out is not about whether there was the Holocaust, so it's not denial.)

12 What, me worry?  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 11:44:14am

re: #9 Sophia77

It's interesting that Rae Abileah, the spokesperson for Code Poke, hadn't heard of the Holocaust Cartoon Contest in Iran.

This was pretty hard to miss for people at all interesting in Middle Eastern politics.

It kind of reinforces my contention that much anti-Israel sentiment is driven by sheer ignorance.

For example I saw a comment on FB yesterday to the effect that Zionism means that Jews are considered a race.

This is clearly absurd. In fact, a core element of antisemitism is the contention that Jews do constitute a race. So what we're seeing is a form of antisemitism projected onto Zionism, which does state that Jews constitute a NATION, with or without national land or borders - something that transcends religious belief, as well as race or nationality, which is based on shared history, languages, origin myths and culture and also the shared experience of being persecuted, expelled, stripped of land and status and routinely humiliated.

Now, the person making the claim that Zionism = the claim that Jews are a RACE is not a bad person. She is a misinformed person, a proPalestinian, but she is unconsciously echoing real antisemitism.

Education is a major key here. Propaganda against Israel and Jews is both effective and of long standing. It's difficult to counter it but it's vital.

I absolutely agree that ignorance fuels these groups, but I also think anti-Zionism has become the new buzzword or "socially acceptable" way to make anti-Semitic comments and not be called a racist.

Technically Jews are not a race. We are a Nation, but I don't know what Zionism has to do with that. Zionism is the desire that all Jews return to Israel, the Jewish homeland and that we have sovereignty over our own land. That's really about it. Of course, that doesn't mean that other nationalities, races or religions can't live there. We have allowed everyone into the country, sometimes to our own detriment.

13 What, me worry?  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 11:48:30am

re: #11 Wash Rush's mouth with a soap.

To be a Holocaust denier one must deny the Holocaust. It's that simple. Whether it is done directly, or by trying to sneakily cast doubt on established history doesn't matter, indeed. But there has to be some act of denial, at least.

I don't know if Latuff is a denier in his heart of hearts, but his cartoon output doesn't contain denial (at least not known to me), altho it contains plenty of antisemitism. This is the meaning of "not a proven Holocaust denier" - he might be one, because antisemites often are, but there's no actual evidence of that. (The cartoon you point out is not about whether there was the Holocaust, so it's not denial.)

The cartoon mocks the Holocaust. I consider that denial.

14 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 11:52:30am

re: #13 Madge

That's your private definition of denial, then. I just find that disgusting, but it neither denies, nor casts doubt.

15 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 11:54:39am

re: #13 Madge

Mocking the holocaust isn't denial. There's a lot of Nazi-types who mock and even celebrate the holocaust. They're not deniers. They're vicious fucking racists.

16 What, me worry?  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 12:04:05pm

So now I have the expert opinion. Okie dokie.

Mocking the holocaust is close enough denial for me.

17 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 12:05:59pm

Mocking the Holocaust when you believe it happened is actually worse than when you don't. So it's not like we're defending this guy.

18 What, me worry?  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 12:09:42pm

re: #17 Wash Rush's mouth with a soap.

Mocking the Holocaust when you believe it happened is actually worse than when you don't. So it's not like we're defending this guy.

I know you're not defending him, but the argument is a bit ridiculous. There is so little light between deniers and bigots, it doesn't make all that much difference.

19 Obdicut  Sun, Mar 4, 2012 12:30:16pm

re: #18 Madge

If someone doesn't deny the Holocaust, then saying that they do provides them with a very easy defense. You call someone a Holocaust denier, if they can say "Nope, I recognize the Holocaust happened.", then you look dishonest-- and, in fact, are being dishonest.

They may be morally equivalent-- though actually, I think the non-deniers that are happy about the Holocaust are much, much worse-- but they're not the same.

20 Flavia  Mon, Mar 5, 2012 3:32:40pm

I see both sides of the "he is/not" department. How about we call him "probable Holocaust denier", & if ever challenged, bring up the participation in the Holocaust Cartoon Contest - deliberately started by a denier (Ahmadinejad (or one of his flunkies))?


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 Frank says:

I'm not black, but there's a whole lot of times I wish I could say I'm not white.