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1 Sophia77  Wed, Mar 7, 2012 1:32:40pm

Amen.

2 The Left  Wed, Mar 7, 2012 1:55:09pm

Birth control isn't the only "women's issue" that is a human right-- all women's rights issues are human rights.

3 Buck  Wed, Mar 7, 2012 7:25:46pm

Believe it or not this really is about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Article 18 and 20 provide that one is free to practice a religion as well as have an explicit right to not act against conscience nor be forced into an association with others wherein they’d be forced to act against belief.

Remember? This was about the white men testifying that providing INSURANCE that gives out birth control is against their religion?

This has never been about a woman's access to birth control. There is no law being suggested that women should not have access to birth control, The question is should the catholic church be forced to provide it?

Also, it seems that the price is much higher in the US. Here in Canada it is about $10 a month. So this is really about women who don't have insurance that covers it, having to pay $10 a month. Maybe someone there can call the local Walmart and see what the price for the pill is? If it really is only $120 a year, then how long does someone have to be in Law school for them to spend $3,000?

We may not want to support the Catholic Church. We might hate their treatment of women. However, next it could be circumcision and the treatment of 5 day old Jewish boys. (This has already been attempted in San Francisco). If in the future, the government can force you to act against your religious beliefs then where will it stop?

4 Lidane  Wed, Mar 7, 2012 10:16:13pm

re: #3 Buck

This has never been about a woman's access to birth control.

If you believe that, you're an idiot.

5 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Mar 7, 2012 10:31:13pm

Buck, I don't need to 'call my local Wal-Mart and find out'. I was on birth control pills for twelve years. I actually know something about this, you see.

You're accepting every half-assed talking point handed to you, as usual, and I don't have the patience for this crap right now.

Sure. Everything's just fine. There is no attack on women's health. It's all about religious freedom. Everyone can pay the couple of cents it costs to get them some birth control over the counter at the Walgreens. Or some aspirin. Hee hee.

Good night, Buck.

6 Buck  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:16:45pm

You remind me of the people who believe the Sharia Law conspiracy.

It really is as simple as I point out. Fluke lied to Congress when she said it was $3,000. No one is taking her 'right' to birth control. This is about insurance, and if every organization should be forced to provide this as part of their insurance plan.

I ask you plainly, should the catholic church be forced to provide it?

7 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:26:16pm

Generic for Ortho Tri-cyclen--72.00 per month. Throw in a doctor's visit and follow-up.

[Link: www.birthcontrolbuzz.com...]

8 Buck  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:28:47pm

re: #7 Decatur Deb

Generic for Ortho Tri-cyclen--72.00 per month. Throw in a doctor's visit and follow-up.

[Link: www.birthcontrolbuzz.com...]

Look again. That price is for three packs.... three months.

9 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:30:37pm

re: #8 Buck

Look again. That price is for three packs... three months.

And it's the generic. She was close enough.

10 Buck  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:31:59pm

Walmart has added 24 new $4 prescriptions – including timolol maleate (glaucoma), terbinafine (antifungal), carvedilol (cardiac), and three $9 women’s medications – including generic birth control product for Ortho Cyclen® and Ortho Tri-Cyclen®.

[Link: walmartstores.com...]

11 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:33:53pm

re: #10 Buck

Walmart has added 24 new $4 prescriptions – including timolol maleate (glaucoma), terbinafine (antifungal), carvedilol (cardiac), and three $9 women’s medications – including generic birth control product for Ortho Cyclen® and Ortho Tri-Cyclen®.

[Link: walmartstores.com...]

And these are mail-order prices for the non-generic.

[Link: www.drugstore.com...]

12 wrenchwench  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:34:58pm

re: #10 Buck

[...]

"The cheapest is $9, but it's very limited," Dr. Pamela Lotke, an assistant professor in obstetrics and gynecology at University Medical Center, told me. The $9 Tri-Sprintec, which is based on estrogen and comes with many side effects, isn't always appropriate for women (and especially for men).

"There are many women who can't take estrogen, so it's just not an option," Lotke said.

[...]

13 jaunte  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:36:08pm

If contraception is supposedly so cheap, what's the problem with covering it?

14 Buck  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:36:57pm

re: #13 jaunte

If contraception is supposedly so cheap, what's the problem with covering it?

See, you don't get it. It is against their religion.

15 wrenchwench  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:38:19pm

re: #14 Buck

See, you don't get it. It is against their religion.

You're a shill for their talking points.

They don't have the right to pick and choose which prescriptions they will cover. If they don't like it, they can drop all of them.

16 jaunte  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:38:33pm

re: #14 Buck

Insurance coverage is part of their employees pay. No one is forced to take contraception.

17 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:38:37pm

re: #14 Buck

It's against the religion of the health insurance company?

By the way, Goddamnefrank has repeatedly posted about the most expensive form of birth control, which is for women with heavy uterine bleeding. The total for three years would come to $3,600.

You said Sandra Fluke lied. Do you care to reconsider that? Why the fuck would you say something like that from a position of such ignorance?

Did she claim every woman paid that much? No. She was obviously citing an upper fucking bound.

Nobody is buying your bullshit.

18 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:39:05pm

re: #14 Buck

See, you don't get it. It is against their religion.

So what? If someone's religion is against specific laws, the religious rights do not trump the laws.

19 jaunte  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:40:01pm

The Church shouldn't be allowed to use insurance to enforce rules on employees they can't even get their own parishioners to observe.

20 Buck  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:40:26pm

re: #18 Creeping Diversity

So what? If someone's religion is against specific laws, the religious rights do not trump the laws.

There is no law, and there should be no law. Everyone has an explicit right to not act against conscience nor be forced into an association with others wherein they’d be forced to act against belief.

21 Buck  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:41:15pm

re: #19 jaunte

The Church shouldn't be allowed to use insurance to enforce rules on employees they can't even get their own parishioners to observe.

They are not doing this to enforce a rule.

They just don't want to be forced to provide birth control.

22 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:41:38pm

re: #20 Buck

Please describe the difference in paying an employee money that they then use to purchase birth control and providing them with a health insurance plan that, if they choose to use it, will provide them with birth control.

Make sure to include logic.

23 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:41:45pm

re: #20 Buck

There is no law, and there should be no law. Everyone has an explicit right to not act against conscience nor be forced into an association with others wherein they’d be forced to act against belief.

If someone's religion tells them to kill an apostate, they still can't do it just because the anti-murder laws contradict this someone's religious precepts.

24 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:42:16pm

re: #21 Buck

They are not doing this to enforce a rule.

They just don't want to be forced to provide birth control.

They're not providing any birth control whatsoever.

Why do you keep saying they are?

25 jaunte  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:42:19pm

re: #21 Buck

The church doesn't. The employees get coverage for it from the insurance companies.

26 Buck  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:43:28pm

re: #25 jaunte

The church doesn't. The employees get coverage for it from the insurance companies.

and the church is being asked to pay for the insurance.

27 Buck  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:44:07pm

re: #24 Obdicut

They're not providing any birth control whatsoever.

Why do you keep saying they are?

They don't want to pay for insurance that provides birth control.

28 jaunte  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:44:29pm

re: #26 Buck

You're wrong, it's part of the employee compensation.

29 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:44:39pm

re: #10 Buck

Here you go, Buck:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

[Link: birth-control-pills.findthebest.com...]

$99 a month for Alesse.

That's $3564 for three years worth.

So, you accused Fluke of lying. How do you feel about that, Buck?

30 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:44:59pm

re: #27 Buck

They don't want to pay for insurance that provides birth control.

Again:

Please describe the difference in paying an employee money that they then use to purchase birth control and providing them with a health insurance plan that, if they choose to use it, will provide them with birth control.

Make sure to include logic.

31 jaunte  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:46:03pm

This is a special exception for a single issue. It doesn't scale to other religious objections, like a group being against psych drugs, or transfusions.

32 Gus  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:48:11pm

If a devout Catholic works at a Catholic hospital which provides contraception coverage under their health insurance policy and that same person is truly an adherent then they won't need contraception in the first place. Saying that she would use contraception would be an indication that this person isn't really against contraception. Is it the temptation they fear?

33 Buck  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:49:30pm

re: #30 Obdicut

Again:

Please describe the difference in paying an employee money that they then use to purchase birth control and providing them with a health insurance plan that, if they choose to use it, will provide them with birth control.

Make sure to include logic.

The difference is, as I have stated twice already that paying for insurance that provides birth control, when birth control is against your religion is being forced into an association with others wherein they’d be forced to act against belief.

We may not want to support the Catholic Church. We might hate their treatment of women. However, next it could be circumcision and the treatment of 5 day old Jewish boys. (This has already been attempted in San Francisco). If in the future, the government can force you to act against your religious beliefs then where will it stop?

34 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:50:05pm

re: #32 Gus

They're generally making the argument in the same stupid way Buck is-- that they shouldn't have to 'pay' for it.

That's why Obama's current compromise-- which just mandates insurance companies provide it at no cost-- really gets their goat so much, because it shows that argument is a lie.

35 Buck  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:50:33pm

re: #32 Gus

If a devout Catholic works at a Catholic hospital which provides contraception coverage under their health insurance policy and that same person is truly an adherent then they won't need contraception in the first place. Saying that she would use contraception would be an indication that this person isn't really against contraception. Is it the temptation they fear?

No it is paying for it. They pay for it even if NO ONE uses it. The cost of the policy reflects this.

36 Gus  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:50:41pm

re: #33 Buck

The difference is, as I have stated twice already that paying for insurance that provides birth control, when birth control is against your religion is being forced into an association with others wherein they’d be forced to act against belief.

We may not want to support the Catholic Church. We might hate their treatment of women. However, next it could be circumcision and the treatment of 5 day old Jewish boys. (This has already been attempted in San Francisco). If in the future, the government can force you to act against your religious beliefs then where will it stop?

No.

37 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:50:52pm

re: #33 Buck

The difference is, as I have stated twice already that paying for insurance that provides birth control, when birth control is against your religion is being forced into an association with others wherein they’d be forced to act against belief.

Why is paying the employee money that they then use to purchase birth control not being forced into an association blah blah?

38 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:51:50pm

re: #35 Buck

No it is paying for it. They pay for it even if NO ONE uses it. The cost of the policy reflects this.

Are you really so out of date that you don't know the actual status of this? The coverage is not provided or paid for by the company. The company is required to offer it to the women at no cost.

Also: You accused Fluke of lying. You were wrong. Are you really going to be so much of a coward as to not admit that?

39 Gus  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:51:57pm

re: #35 Buck

No it is paying for it. They pay for it even if NO ONE uses it. The cost of the policy reflects this.

The cost of their policy reflects the costs of ALL procedures and medicines in their state regardless.

40 Buck  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:52:31pm

re: #34 Obdicut

which just mandates insurance companies provide it at no cost-

Really? No cost? They will just take the hit and not pass the cost on to the policy holder?

Really you think that was reasonable? I think it was a fantasy. The President says we have to provide something that costs us money and not get paid for it. Ya that makes sense.

41 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:53:13pm

re: #40 Buck

Really? No cost? They will just take the hit and not pass the cost on to the policy holder?

Given that it'll save them money to provide it, how would they pass it on, excatly?

Really you think that was reasonable? I think it was a fantasy. The President says we have to provide something that costs us money and not get paid for it. Ya that makes sense.

Again, Buck:

You accused Fluke of lying. You were wrong. Are you really going to be so much of a coward as to not admit that?

42 Gus  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:53:59pm

IOW. The insurance premium wouldn't be based on one Catholic hospital alone. The insurance premiums are based on the overall costs of the whole state population. Beyond state boundaries in fact and it's just about national. So whether they like it or not, Catholic churches are already paying into contraception and abortion every time they pay their private insurance premiums.

43 Buck  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:54:52pm

re: #37 Obdicut

Why is paying the employee money that they then use to purchase birth control not being forced into an association blah blah?

You know the answer. The Church paying a wage for a service. What is done with the money after that is not their business. Paying directly for a plan that provides birth control is very different. And you know it.

44 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:55:23pm

re: #39 Gus

The cost of their policy reflects the costs of ALL procedures and medicines in their state regardless.

The costs to the insurer of a population pool is less with BC than with uncontrolled pregnancies.

45 Buck  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:55:36pm

re: #41 Obdicut

it'll save them money to provide it,

Again fantasy.

46 Gus  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:55:43pm

Just like car insurance. You're paying for drunk drivers and bad drivers.

47 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:56:08pm

re: #43 Buck

You know the answer. The Church paying a wage for a service. What is done with the money after that is not their business.

Why is it their business what's done with health insurance benefits?

Paying directly for a plan that provides birth control is very different. And you know it.

No, I don't. I'm asking you to demonstrate it, with logic. You can't. Your argument is a complete failure, I'm calling you out on it, and you have nothing, zero to defend it with other than bare assertion.

48 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:56:25pm

re: #45 Buck

Hey coward:


You accused Fluke of lying. You were wrong. Are you really going to be so much of a coward as to not admit that?

49 Buck  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:56:31pm

re: #44 Decatur Deb

The costs to the insurer of a population pool is less with BC than with uncontrolled pregnancies.

The actual businesses called insurance companies don't agree with you.

50 Gus  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:56:44pm

re: #44 Decatur Deb

The costs to the insurer of a population pool is less with BC than with uncontrolled pregnancies.

That too.

Bottom line the government isn't forcing women to use contraception. Unless the churches want to start paying taxes.

51 Decatur Deb  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:58:25pm

re: #49 Buck

The actual businesses called insurance companies don't agree with you.

I'll take that on faith.

52 Buck  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:58:49pm

re: #48 Obdicut

Hey coward:

You accused Fluke of lying. You were wrong. Are you really going to be so much of a coward as to not admit that?

It could cost a million dollars, but it doesn't. She said it costs $3000 for the time it takes to get a law degree.

Also Title 10 provides it to her at zero cost.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE COST. IT IS NOT ABOUT TAKING AWAY BIRTH CONTROL FROM WOMEN.

53 jaunte  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 5:58:52pm

"The President of the Association of Jesuit Colleges has shared that Jesuit colleges and the universities appreciate the modifications to the rule announced recently."

54 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 6:00:22pm

re: #52 Buck

It could cost a million dollars, but it doesn't. She said it costs $3000 for the time it takes to get a law degree.

You're lying, Buck. Why the hell would you accuse her of lying, and then lie yourself?

What she said:

Without insurance coverage, contraception can cost a woman over $3,000 during law school.

Is that statement true or false, Buck?

55 Gus  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 6:01:07pm

re: #52 Buck

It could cost a million dollars, but it doesn't. She said it costs $3000 for the time it takes to get a law degree.

Also Title 10 provides it to her at zero cost.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE COST. IT IS NOT ABOUT TAKING AWAY BIRTH CONTROL FROM WOMEN.

If it's about cost then let's stop insurance coverage for erectile dysfunction and penis pumps.

56 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 6:01:17pm

re: #52 Buck

Did you just miss the post where I showed you some forms of birth control would total over $3,000 for three years of college or something? Are you just not paying attention?

57 Buck  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 6:01:23pm

re: #51 Decatur Deb

I'll take that on faith.

Well, faith is what we are supposed to be talking about.

However, I am sure the President knows all about providing something for nothing. So many businesses are based on that model.

58 jaunte  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 6:02:34pm

Ed Kilgore:

"...it is very clear that Catholic opinion isn’t significantly different from that of the rest of the population, despite the much-publicized thundering of the Bishops. The latest major survey, by CBS/NYT, showed 61% of Americans, and of Catholics specifically, broadly supporting a contraception mandate. If such numbers are even remotely accurate, the effort to mobilize Catholics against Obama on this issue has simply failed."

The contrast in responses from Catholic organizations has been more a matter of tone than content. They are all in agreement that certain issues still need to be worked out, like what to do about Catholic institutions that are “self-insured,” meaning that they act as both the insurer and the employer.

Yet some struck an optimistic tone, greeting the White House’s announcement as a good-faith step forward. Those groups included the Catholic Health Association, which represents 600 hospitals and 1,400 health care facilities, plus Catholic Charities, the Association of Jesuit Colleges and Universities, the Sisters of Mercy of the Americas, and the Leadership Conference of Women Religious. They said that details like what to do about “self-insurance” could be worked out.

The Rev. Gregory Lucey, president of the Association of Jesuit Colleges and Universities, which represents 28 institutions, said: “I really am appreciative of what the president did last Friday. I’m optimistic and hopeful, and I feel the religious liberty issue is addressed.”
[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com...]

59 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 6:03:09pm

re: #55 Gus

If it's about cost then let's stop insurance coverage for erectile dysfunction and penis pumps.

That one is not mine, I swear, baby!

///

60 Buck  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 6:03:17pm

re: #55 Gus

Seriously. I say in all caps that it is NOT about the cost, and you say it is about the cost.

erectile dysfunction and penis pumps are not against their religion.

61 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 6:04:09pm

By the way, Buck-- the guy who lied about Fluke's testimony, and accused her of being a liar. Classy-- you asked this:

If in the future, the government can force you to act against your religious beliefs then where will it stop?

The government can force you to act against your religious beliefs in the present. You may have a religious belief that women aren't allowed to speak to you or address you, but a female cop will violate that belief of yours in half a minute.

So what the fuck are you talking about? The law is the law. Religious belief cannot override it.

62 Gus  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 6:05:05pm

re: #60 Buck

Seriously. I say in all caps that it is NOT about the cost, and you say it is about the cost.

erectile dysfunction and penis pumps are not against their religion.

It doesn't matter in the end because the women you're concerned about won't use contraception because if they do they'll "burn in hell!" for 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000... years! They won't then if they're smart. Sez so in the Bible!

63 Gus  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 6:08:27pm

Heck. They should be allowed to have slaves no?

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. -- (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

64 Gus  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 6:12:32pm

Maybe they can start killing gays too!

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. -- (Leviticus 20:13)

65 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 6:15:28pm

re: #52 Buck

Oh, and by the way, Romney wants to eliminate Title X.

66 jaunte  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 6:19:00pm

When Women Used Lysol as Birth Control

The current attack on access to birth control had us thinking back to the first half of the 20th century, when contraceptive methods taken for granted today, like condoms and diaphragms, were expensive, hard to find, and often required a potentially humiliating exam by a disapproving doctor.

Of course, women who couldn’t afford or gain access to medically administered birth control had to come up with their own strategies for staying baby free. Douching was cheap, accessible, and widely advertised as a feminine hygiene product; however, as Andrea Tone writes in the book Devices and Desires: A History of Contraceptives in America, it was also the most common form of birth control from 1940 until 1960—when the oral contraceptive pill arrived on the market.

67 Interesting Times  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 6:20:38pm

re: #66 jaunte

When Women Used Lysol as Birth Control

OMG! Cleaning supplies in the the lunchroom violate employer religious freedom!!!1!!!

68 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 6:23:32pm

One Jesuit I read recently made the great argument that there's nothing in Catholic doctrine against the purchase of these pills, just their use, and their use is a matter of private conscience.

69 Gus  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 6:25:05pm

re: #68 Obdicut

One Jesuit I read recently made the great argument that there's nothing in Catholic doctrine against the purchase of these pills, just their use, and their use is a matter of private conscience.

Bingo!

70 Gus  Thu, Mar 8, 2012 6:33:52pm

In the mean time the Republicans and the right-wing are making advances in their war against women.

71 Randall Gross  Fri, Mar 9, 2012 9:40:47am

I just noticed that the thread got all bucked up...
1. Bible doesn't trump law
2. Church organizations don't have rights, individuals do.
3. Insurers, not the Catholic institutions are being asked to pay.
4. Where Catholics employ non catholics, the non catholics rights, benefits, and pay cannot be trumped by church doctrine.
5. Jehovah's witnesses don't get to offer plans that don't cover transfusions, yet the Catholic leadership think they get to ignore the rules and laws.
6. On average more Catholics want the plan to cover birth control than those who do not, it's only the tyrannical patriarchy that wants to trample rules and laws.
7. Catholic institutions have been offering plans that cover birth control for a long time, why's it suddenly unbearable?

72 wrenchwench  Fri, Mar 9, 2012 10:04:13am

re: #71 Randall Gross

all bucked up

Heh.


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Black Pumas - ‘I’m Ready’ (Timelapse Mural Video) Artist: Aaron Darling Videographer/Editor: Don RayFilmed at: Native Hostel - Austin, TXSong: Black Pumas - I'm Ready “I'm Ready” is available on the deluxe edition of the Black Pumas’ debut album, out everywhere now - smarturl.it "I'm Ready" (Official ...
Thanos
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