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1 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 12:43:18pm

I am “ultra-Orthodox” and I have a degree in Mathematics, and worked for 25 years in the auto industry. I am not DUMB.

All my daughters were over 21 when they got married, after working full time for several years. My youngest daughter just got married at the ripe old age of 25. SHE IS NOT DUMB.

My oldest daughter graduated from college #1 in her class, got a perfect score on the GRE and is working for her master’s at Columbia. SHE IS NOT DUMB.

None of my sons married teenagers and none of them married DUMB WOMEN.

So I am not dumb, my daughters are not dumb, and my daughters-in-law are not dumb, what does this make the writer of this bullshit article? A LIAR.

2 Randall Gross  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 1:07:01pm

re: #1 Learned Mother of Zion

The writer is explaining her personal experience, and that’s a quote. I don’t see how that makes her a liar? Your experience isn’t going to exactly match all other human beings. Some of us are sometimes dumb when we are young, I know I was.

3 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 1:10:49pm

re: #2 Randall Gross

The writer is explaining her personal experience, and that’s a quote. I don’t see how that makes her a liar? Your experience isn’t going to exactly match all other human beings. Some of us are sometimes dumb when we are young, I know I was.

She is claiming that her experience is the norm. What makes her experience the norm and not my experience?

4 Randall Gross  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 1:19:32pm

re: #3 Learned Mother of Zion

Are you from her exact community?

5 Randall Gross  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 1:33:43pm

The words she used were “typical in her community”, not “norm” ; her experience, observations, and interpretation of that might differ from yours even if you were from the exact same community.

6 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 1:40:37pm

re: #5 Randall Gross

The words she used were “typical in her community”, not “norm” ; her experience, observations, and interpretation of that might differ from yours even if you were from the exact same community.

Did she identify which community she is from? Satmar? Lakewood? Lubavitch? Toldos Ahron? Mea Shearim?

Nowhere in this hate screed did I see anything like “this is my own personal observation, YMMV” she implies that ALL “ultra-Orthodox” woman are dumb and all men are shitbags, no exceptions whatsoever.

7 Randall Gross  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 1:48:32pm

re: #6 Learned Mother of Zion

Well sorry, I don’t see her calling all ultra orthodox women dumb in this article. I do think she has a point of view, and it’s probably stronger than some on this topic since she is with an organization that helps women who want to get out of arranged marriages. So I do take what she says with a grain of salt knowing there’s some advocacy attached. (Think reformed smoker - sometimes they become the biggest anti smoking advocates.) I”m sure she went through an experience as she left her community, and perhaps that’s left some marks on her that tilt her view as well.

8 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 1:52:51pm

re: #7 Randall Gross

Well sorry, I don’t see her calling all ultra orthodox women dumb in this article. I do think she has a point of view, and it’s probably stronger than some on this topic since she is with an organization that helps women who want to get out of arranged marriages. So I do take what she says with a grain of salt knowing there’s some advocacy attached. (Think reformed smoker - sometimes they become the biggest anti smoking advocates.) I”m sure she went through an experience as she left her community, and perhaps that’s left some marks on her that tilt her view as well.

So you admit she has an ax to grind, and reading that article makes me feel like Lizzie Borden’s mom.

9 Randall Gross  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 1:57:00pm

re: #8 Learned Mother of Zion

I”m not “admitting anything” I’m speculating. This seems to be affecting you a lot, and I don’t want to speak for her, so why don’t you contact her and talk to her about it rather than me? I can only speculate. She has contact info at her website as well as these videos from the Anderson Cooper show that might give you some insight on the questions you’ve asked?

andersoncooper.com

10 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:08:10pm

re: #9 Randall Gross

I”m not “admitting anything” I’m speculating. This seems to be affecting you a lot, and I don’t want to speak for her, so why don’t you contact her and talk to her about it rather than me? I can only speculate. She has contact info at her website as well as these videos from the Anderson Cooper show that might give you some insight on the questions you’ve asked?

[Link: www.andersoncooper.com…]

You paged it here at LGF, so you wanted a conversation, you did not intend to put people in touch with this individual. I have no intention of contacting the person directly, she is quite hostile. I don’t care that she has left the community and I don’t want to be her friend.

11 Randall Gross  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:11:49pm

re: #10 Learned Mother of Zion

You paged it here at LGF, so you wanted a conversation, you did not intend to put people in touch with this individual. I have no intention of contacting the person directly, she is quite hostile. I don’t care that she has left the community and I don’t want to be her friend.

No I page a lot of things (22,000 + ) here that I don’t necessarily want to talk about, it’s information.

12 Pie-onist Overlord  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 2:27:51pm

re: #11 Randall Gross

No I page a lot of things (22,000 + ) here that I don’t necessarily want to talk about, it’s information.

OK fair enough. I page articles that I would like to start a conversation about.

In the case of this particular article, I think it contains incorrect information which I thought should be dealt with so that people don’t come away with misconceptions about an entire group of people.

13 Randall Gross  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 3:16:51pm

re: #12 Learned Mother of Zion

OK fair enough. I page articles that I would like to start a conversation about.

In the case of this particular article, I think it contains incorrect information which I thought should be dealt with so that people don’t come away with misconceptions about an entire group of people.

I don’t have as much time for a lot of long conversations like I used to, and I try to keep my blood pressure low. Generally if I feel strongly one way or another about something then I don’t just plug it in, I also put some commentary in the header. I still don’t see the hate you say you see in that article, but I guess we are going to differ.

14 sffilk  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 6:39:55pm

re: #1 Learned Mother of Zion

Not everyone is as fortunate as you are. I’ve known women who are in the position of the author of the article. Nearly all of them are part of one Chasidic group or another which says the only thing (or the best thing) a woman can do is be a submissive wife and mother.

15 Origuy  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 9:25:01pm

re: #1 Learned Mother of Zion

You appear to be furious because some women are being called dumb, by a member of this community, in fact. You aren’t mentioning the core issue, that young women are being forced by their families and community into a marriage not of their choosing.

There is a link on that page to another article by a young woman with a similar story. She left an arranged marriage in an ultra-Orthodox community because of an abusive husband. She was threatened with the loss of custody of her children. She’s the founder of Unchained at Last.

16 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Apr 15, 2012 9:32:11pm

re: #15 Origuy

You appear to be furious because some women are being called dumb, by a member of this community, in fact. You aren’t mentioning the core issue, that young women are being forced by their families and community into a marriage not of their choosing.

There is a link on that page to another article by a young woman with a similar story. She left an arranged marriage in an ultra-Orthodox community because of an abusive husband. She was threatened with the loss of custody of her children. She’s the founder of Unchained at Last.

It is difficult to listen to someone say “I was a member of this community and this is the way it is,” when your personal experience is completely the opposite, especially when the majority of Alouette’s adult life was passed in this community.

17 researchok  Mon, Apr 16, 2012 1:02:32am

Her life works for her now. That’s the message I got.

If there are others who feel the way she did, she is doing them a service by being supportive.

18 Bob Levin  Mon, Apr 16, 2012 2:42:44am

re: #6 Learned Mother of Zion

Lakewood.


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