Pages

Sign InRegisterForgotten password?

RebelmouseTwitterFacebook
Advertisement

26 comments

Jump to bottom
1 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, May 9, 2012 8:18:59am

Shameful. Especially coming from someone who is not on the fringe.

2 researchok  Wed, May 9, 2012 8:19:53am

Yeah that will work. History has proved that.
/

3 shutdown  Wed, May 9, 2012 8:29:57am

I understand the emotional freighting of the editorial position taken by Lapid. Nonetheless, it is important to recognize that great numbers of Israelis are increasingly frustrated with the political clout of a group which contributes very little to GDP, instead demanding ever-increasing subsidies and special treatment. Lapid offers no solutions, which is unfortunate, and also should have precluded the publishing of the piece as anything more than a letter to the editor.

Nowhere does Lapid support the notion that Haredim should not be professionally trained or empowered. He states that enlistment of Haredim into the armed forces is unlikely to lead them to professional careers, or in any way decrease the negative financial (and societal) impact of their ever-increasing numbers and demands on the rest of Israeli society.

I do not think Lapid’s piece adds anything constructive to this very urgent Israeli conundrum. At the same time, I do not think your thinly veiled references to the Holocaust are called for. Accusing an Israeli commentator of alluding to ethnic cleansing of portions of Jewish Israeli society is unbecoming.

4 Vicious Babushka  Wed, May 9, 2012 8:35:46am

re: #3 Phlebas

This piece is by Yaron London, not Yair Lapid. I think that Yair Lapid’s position, which is integrating the Haredim into the IDF and the workforce, is actually quite reasonable and he has many useful ideas. Yaron London has dismissed Lapid’s position and calls for “reducing the population.” Now how exactly are we supposed to respond to “reducing the population”?

5 shutdown  Wed, May 9, 2012 8:45:44am

Sorry for the misreading. My position though is the same. Before I suggest how you might respond to “reducing the population”, a statement made by a Jew in an Israeli newspaper, please state in plain English what your interpretation is of the phrase. That gives me something to which I might respond.

6 Vicious Babushka  Wed, May 9, 2012 9:13:21am

re: #5 Phlebas

Sorry for the misreading. My position though is the same. Before I suggest how you might respond to “reducing the population”, a statement made by a Jew in an Israeli newspaper, please state in plain English what your interpretation is of the phrase. That gives me something to which I might respond.

Well let’s see, would you go into any community and tell them “There are too many of you, we’d like to see your numbers diminish” do you think they will happily agree? Especially since London has rejected any program to integrate into the military and the workforce. There is no nice and kindly way to interpret “reducing the population” and it immediately conjures up unpleasant images from history.

7 shutdown  Wed, May 9, 2012 9:42:52am

re: #6 Learned Mother of Zion

The wording may be unfortunate in your estimation. I think a society overrun with net consumers of social services and subsidy money conjures up negative historical images, as well. I choose to interpret London’s words as implying that legal and social changes are necessary to bring about a natural shift in Haredi society, in which Haredim become less dependent on subsidies, are not exempt from general social obligations, and are integrated into modern Israeli society to the greatest extent possible. These shifts would “diminish” the numbers of Haredim the way they live today - a life style that is unsustainable. No-one should argue that Haredim ought give up their religious perspective or their desire to spend as much time as possible in the bet-midrash. Similarly, no-one ought to argue that efforts to wean Haredi society from the public teat is akin to the Holocaust.

8 Vicious Babushka  Wed, May 9, 2012 9:50:27am

re: #7 Phlebas

The wording may be unfortunate in your estimation. I think a society overrun with net consumers of social services and subsidy money conjures up negative historical images, as well. I choose to interpret London’s words as implying that legal and social changes are necessary to bring about a natural shift in Haredi society, in which Haredim become less dependent on subsidies, are not exempt from general social obligations, and are integrated into modern Israeli society to the greatest extent possible. These shifts would “diminish” the numbers of Haredim the way they live today - a life style that is unsustainable. No-one should argue that Haredim ought give up their religious perspective or their desire to spend as much time as possible in the bet-midrash. Similarly, no-one ought to argue that efforts to wean Haredi society from the public teat is akin to the Holocaust.

I think you should go back and read the article by Yaron London in which he explicitly states that integration programs are not sufficient and that the population MUST BE REDUCED. Also, where did I compare this to the Holocaust? There are plenty of examples from history where attempts were made to reduce the Jewish population (start with the first chapter of Exodus), I never compared this to the Holocaust.

9 Obdicut  Wed, May 9, 2012 9:53:28am

re: #8 Learned Mother of Zion

For the record, it made me think of the sterilization performed on the Roma, and the eugenics programs in Sweden, not the Holocaust.

10 shutdown  Wed, May 9, 2012 10:12:30am

re: #8 Learned Mother of Zion

I ask you again to please state outright the comparison to which you allude. And I think that derived accusations of proposed sterilization programmes or eugenics are preposterous without some proof. Before you go about darkly implying that one Jew is suggesting the perpetration of some form of violence upon other Jews, you should have cite-able quotes to that effect.

11 Obdicut  Wed, May 9, 2012 10:14:23am

re: #10 Phlebas

Shouldn’t it be the author you’re asking how he’d “minimize their rate within Israeli society”?

12 Vicious Babushka  Wed, May 9, 2012 10:20:30am

re: #10 Phlebas

I ask you again to please state outright the comparison to which you allude. And I think that derived accusations of proposed sterilization programmes or eugenics are preposterous without some proof. Before you go about darkly implying that one Jew is suggesting the perpetration of some form of violence upon other Jews, you should have cite-able quotes to that effect.

OK here are some cite-able quotes. You can go back and refer to the original article to determine if they have been taken out of context or not.

Hence, the correct question is not how to draft the haredim and draw them into the job market, but rather, what should be done in order to minimize their rate within Israeli society.

Once the haredi population declines, the gravity of the issue of enlisting them to the army would decline as well.

Hence, the intellectual effort dedicated to the issue of IDF enlistment should be dedicated to the great challenge: Shrinking the ranks of the haredim.

He does not provide any suggestions on how to achieve the population reduction, just that programs for integration are not sufficient.

13 shutdown  Wed, May 9, 2012 10:35:28am

re: #11 Obdicut

I have said that I find the author’s remarks nonconstructive. My primary concern in commenting here was the sub-text of Alouette’s remarks. Which, by the way, she still refuses to make more concrete.

14 shutdown  Wed, May 9, 2012 10:40:47am

re: #12 Learned Mother of Zion

As stated above, I agree that his remarks are not helpful, as no potential solutions are offered. I take issue with your ongoing refusal to back up your allusion to the form this “shrinking” or “minimization” might take. I can think of many ways to achieve this that are not sinister in any way. Reduction of subsidies, both educational and fiscal, scaling back social service exemptions, providing a firmer legal basis for secular authority over various aspects of Israeli life (marriage, etc.) - all these might in some way cause the Haredi lifestyle appear less attractive to those not fully committed to its precepts, or cuase modifications to the Haredi positions themselves, leading to their partial integration into, and a lessening of their burden on the rest of Israeli society.

15 Vicious Babushka  Wed, May 9, 2012 10:51:00am

re: #14 Phlebas

As stated above, I agree that his remarks are not helpful, as no potential solutions are offered. I take issue with your ongoing refusal to back up your allusion to the form this “shrinking” or “minimization” might take. I can think of many ways to achieve this that are not sinister in any way. Reduction of subsidies, both educational and fiscal, scaling back social service exemptions, providing a firmer legal basis for secular authority over various aspects of Israeli life (marriage, etc.) - all these might in some way cause the Haredi lifestyle appear less attractive to those not fully committed to its precepts, or cuase modifications to the Haredi positions themselves, leading to their partial integration into, and a lessening of their burden on the rest of Israeli society.

You keep saying that Yaron London’s plan to “reduce the population” are purely benign, even though he rejects the programs that are already in place to enable integration into the military and the workplace. You keep accusing me of failing to be “concrete” as to what steps Yaron London recommends as to how to achieve this “population reduction” but I can’t be any more specific than he is himself.

“Throw them all off welfare” what a great idea! Do you think that will empower people to rush out and become gainfully employed? Are there enough jobs for them? How do we respond when some GOP candidate here in the USA makes that kind of a recommendation?

16 Obdicut  Wed, May 9, 2012 11:07:05am

re: #13 Ascher

I have said that I find the author’s remarks nonconstructive. My primary concern in commenting here was the sub-text of Alouette’s remarks. Which, by the way, she still refuses to make more concrete.

Her point is that the guy’s comments weren’t concrete, though. And there really aren’t any pleasant ways of reducing the numbers of an ethnic group or subgroup in a population.

I don’t see where you got the Holocaust. The Holocaust was not an attempt to ‘shrink’ the numbers of the Jews in the population.

17 shutdown  Wed, May 9, 2012 11:49:57am

Reiterating, again, my points:
a) I am not supporting London
b) Alouette still refuses to state her interpretation of London’s comments in concrete terms.

Nowhere do I say “throw them all off welfare”. I refer to a reduction of various subsidies along with attempts to partially mainstream Haredim socially. I specifically state that there need be no attempt to attack Haredi religious principles; rather, I question whether it is right for the rest of Israeli society to continue to fund them, to its own detriment.

Radicalizing my statements - changing my position from “reduction of subsidies” to “throw them off welfare”, while refusing to acknowledge your own allusions in your initial post and subsequent responses precludes proper discussion. Please explain:

but his words do conjure up images from history as to how similar objectives of shrinking a population were carried out in the past.

I would be delighted to hear that you were not obliquely drawing on Holocaust or pogrom imagery.

18 Obdicut  Wed, May 9, 2012 11:54:07am

re: #17 Ascher

b) Alouette still refuses to state her interpretation of London’s comments in concrete terms.

I think she’s made it clear that there’s no concrete conclusion to come to from it, but there’s a hell of a lot of negative weight in the idea of intentionally shrinking an ethnic group.

I specifically state that there need be no attempt to attack Haredi religious principles; rather, I question whether it is right for the rest of Israeli society to continue to fund them, to its own detriment.

Do we see smaller Haredi families in the US, where there’s a much smaller support system? I don’t have data, but I know that there are lots of complaints about the size of Haredi families that have come up in the US.

19 shutdown  Wed, May 9, 2012 12:07:35pm

My initial post, and subsequent responses, were all predicated on my surprise at seeing Alouette make the statement I have quoted. I would love to hear, from Alouette, what she meant with her statement. My subsequent suggestions regarding subsidies, etc were meant solely to demonstrate that an entirely benign interpretation of London’s position is possible. I do not hold myself out as an expert on Israeli domestic politics, comparative Haredi birthrates, or the cost of drafting Haredim into the IDF. I simply want to know what images London’s words “conjure up” for Alouette. Without this elaboration from her, I am having a discussion with myself.

20 Vicious Babushka  Wed, May 9, 2012 12:28:45pm

Yaron London declares he wants to “reduce the Haredi population” but omits to say how to achieve this. So why are you asking me to read his mind?

Maybe he wants to impose some kind of birth control on Haredi families, a “one child” or “two child” policy like they have in China? I don’t know BECAUSE HE HASN’T SAID THIS IS WHAT HE WANTS TO DO.

I can’t think of any benign way to reduce an entire population without some form of coercion.

21 Bob Levin  Wed, May 9, 2012 1:46:19pm

re: #20 Learned Mother of Zion

If the title of the blog post contains the words ‘A Modest Proposal’, which is not in Ynet, then why is the opinion piece not seen as satire? Is it possible that London, like Swift, is simply running with the subtext of the entire debate?

In other words, your blog title implies that this shouldn’t be taken seriously.

22 shutdown  Wed, May 9, 2012 7:12:03pm

re: #20 Learned Mother of Zion

Anyway I read this, “rate” means proportionate number and not a reduction of population. Maybe he could suggest rewarding non-Haredim for increasing their birthrates? Or provide a financial disincentive to Haredim to discourage leading more than a certain number of children to the public trough - a measure which could apply universally, not just to Haredim. I cannot imagine any context in which physical measures are being proposed - but that’s my interpretation. Thank you for specifying.

23 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 9, 2012 10:44:30pm

re: #7 Ascher

The wording may be unfortunate in your estimation. I think a society overrun with net consumers of social services and subsidy money conjures up negative historical images, as well. I choose to interpret London’s words as implying that legal and social changes are necessary to bring about a natural shift in Haredi society, in which Haredim become less dependent on subsidies, are not exempt from general social obligations, and are integrated into modern Israeli society to the greatest extent possible.

If that’s what he meant, he should have said. Especially given that his whinging about how it will be too hard to train haredim for the army or the job market. How, precisely, are they meant to become less dependent on subsidies and take on general social obligations, according to this man who thinks drafting them a waste of time?

24 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 9, 2012 10:45:03pm

re: #17 Ascher

I would be delighted to hear that you were not obliquely drawing on Holocaust or pogrom imagery.

Who are you, the pogrom imagery police?

The language used in the original article is bizarre and fairly triggery for Jews. Alouette takes note of this, as do I. Why is she on the carpet, precisely?

25 shutdown  Thu, May 10, 2012 12:21:15pm

re: #24 SanFranciscoZionist

Who are you, the pogrom imagery police?

The language used in the original article is bizarre and fairly triggery for Jews. Alouette takes note of this, as do I. Why is she on the carpet, precisely?

No, I am someone who would just as soon that posters not make sly inferences to “images from history” without stating outright their opinions. And “on the carpet” is an unduly harsh qualification of my comments. I contend that making vague, open-ended, tendentious allusions is nonconstructive, especially given the subject matter. Is that wrong?

26 Flavia  Thu, May 10, 2012 9:02:11pm

re: #9 Obdicut

For the record, it made me think of the sterilization performed on the Roma, and the eugenics programs in Sweden, not the Holocaust.

I was also thinking that he meant throwing them out.


This page has been archived.
Comments are closed.

^ back to top ^

Turn off ads by subscribing!
For about 33 cents a day, our subscription option turns off all advertisements at LGF!
Read more...

► LGF Headlines

  • Loading...

► Tweeted Articles

  • Loading...

► Tweeted Pages

  • Loading...

► Top 10 Comments

  • Loading...

► Bottom Comments

  • Loading...

► Recent Comments

  • Loading...

► Tools/Info

► Tag Cloud

► Contact

You must have Javascript enabled to use the contact form.
Your email:

Subject:

Message:


Messages may be published in our weblog, unless you request otherwise.
Tech Note:
Using the Contact Form
LGF Pages Create a Page
This is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title and text already filled in.
Recent Pages
FemNaziBitch
A Married Man’s Sexual Epiphany — the Good Men Project
Your sex appeal shoots through the roof! You achieve the status of "sexy man". Your wife sees you in a new attractive light which is the only light that allows her to see you this way. In fact, many other women notice as well--wherever you are. You morph into that man other guys envy and women adore. And until now, you had no ...

13 minutes ago
Views: 18 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 0
Skip Intro
Mountain of Petroleum Coke From Oil Sands Rises in Detroit
WINDSOR, Ontario -- Assumption Park gives residents of this city lovely views of the Ambassador Bridge and the Detroit skyline. Lately they've been treated to another sight: a three-story pile of petroleum coke covering an entire city block on the other side of the Detroit River. Detroit's ever-growing black mountain is the unloved, unwanted and long overlooked byproduct of Canada's oil sands boom. ...

2 hours, 52 minutes ago
Views: 54 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 0
theye1
The Greatest (Movie) Speech Ever Made
73 years later is still relevant and powerful as ever. It's also because of this movie that Charlie Chaplin was labelled a "premature anti-fascist."

13 hours, 59 minutes ago
Views: 164 • Comments: 6
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 5
Romantic Heretic
The Singing Ringing Tree
Some people built this strange looking statue in England. And this is what it sounds like. Youtube Video

14 hours, 58 minutes ago
Views: 70 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 2
Vicious Babushka
Tonight’s Shabbos Menu (& Recipes)
Tonight's menu: Baked Gefilte FishBroiled Rainbow TroutRedskin Potato SaladChicken Noodle Soup Wine: Herzog ZinfandelDessert: Frozen Strawberry Daquiri Tomorrow's menu: Gefilte Fish, TroutRomaine/Avocado SaladOlive Pasta SaladRedskin Potato Salad Wine: Herzog Orange MuscatDessert: Frozen Margaritas Middle East Fried Chicken Recipe 1 broiler chicken, cut into 8ths1/4 c. unbleached flour1/2 c. Panko breadcrumbs1 Tbsp. Za'atar seasoning1 Tbsp. olive oil Preheat oven to 425. Put 1 Tbsp oil ...

18 hours, 16 minutes ago
Views: 126 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 1 • Rating: 4
Haywood Jabloeme
Allen West Named Fox News Contributor
"Representative West's congressional and military experience along with his fearless approach to voicing key issues will provide a valuable point of view to the Fox News lineup," Fox News Vice President Bill Shine said in a statement. More: Allen West Named Fox News Contributor Its categorized as "Entertainment" since even the Fox News Channel itself makes a distinction between "Hard News" and "Entertainment". ...

19 hours, 57 minutes ago
Views: 121 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 0
Michael McBacon
4 Things We Should Remember When Arguing About Politics
Political discourse in America has reached levels of douchebaggery previously only theorized about but never observed, like conversational dark matter. We're in a whole new world of hating people based solely on their opinions on a few key issues, and since this is unexplored territory, our conversations about politics are usually only a couple notches beyond the "hold your breath until the other ...

23 hours, 44 minutes ago
Views: 221 • Comments: 0
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 2
Political Atheist
LAPD Reformed as Federal Oversight Lifted, City Leaders Say
Los Angeles leaders say the Los Angeles Police Department has undergone a dramatic transformation since federal oversight of the agency was ordered 12 years ago. The dismissal Wednesday of the so-called consent decree, which arose largely out of the Rampart corruption scandal and addressed basic problems of accountability that stretched back decades, delivered a largely symbolic, but nonetheless important milestone for the LAPD ...

1 day ago
Views: 119 • Comments: 3
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 4
Feline Fearless Leader
What to do in Orange County - LA - San Diego
Seems a good way to solicit ideas for touristing destinations and activities. Will have 4-5 days so some opportunity for visiting multiple sites. And since I do have an interest in history and military history items in that area will be welcome suggestions. (The USS Midway down in San Diego is already on the list.) If there is anything California-geology related that would be ...

1 day, 1 hour ago
Views: 107 • Comments: 4
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 4
Randall Gross
Sam Harris: The Fireplace Delusion
I hate to have to point this out, but: I DID NOT WRITE THIS ESSAY. I'm just READING IT ALOUD. This essay came to my attention recently, and it's an excellent exercise for a skeptic or atheist to experience this feeling of loss of innocence and the painful feelings it summons. See it through to the end before posting, please. The source:samharris.org Next ...

1 day, 23 hours ago
Views: 276 • Comments: 1
Tweets: 0 • Rating: 2
 Frank says:

It's f*cking great to be alive, ladies and gentlemen, and if you do not believe it is f*cking great to be alive, you better go now, because this show will bring you down so much -- from Just Another Band From L.A.