Israeli Pundit Suggests 'A Modest Proposal' for Reducing the Haredi Population - LGF Pages

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Israeli Pundit Suggests ‘A Modest Proposal’ for Reducing the Haredi Population

By Vicious Babushka

Middle East • May 2012 • Views: 1,538

viciousbabushka.com

Yaron London writes the following in YNet:

Almost all our political parties expressed their views on the proper way to draft the haredim into the IDF. The freshest proposal is the one presented by Yair Lapid. The main innovation inherent in it is the undoing of the Gordian knot that forces ultra-Orthodox youngsters to study at the yeshiva and prevents them from working for a living.

Haredi officials rushed to slam the rookie politician and accused him of holding hatred towards members of their sector. This is a regular pattern: Anyone who attempts to impose any kind of change on the haredim is accused of hating them and often also of anti-Semitism. Those who view themselves as the guardians of real Judaism apparently cannot address criticism against them in any other way.

Yet don’t conclude from the above that I endorse Lapid’s proposal. The forced enlistment of thousands of youngsters lacking any professional training guarantees a huge waste of money and immense corruption. So what should we do?

I’ve heard all the prevailing views and none of them convinced me. When a question has no answer for a long period of time, we must realize that no answer exists and come up with another question. Hence, the correct question is not how to draft the haredim and draw them into the job market, but rather, what should be done in order to minimize their rate within Israeli society.

Read more at YNet.

OF COURSE Haredim should be drafted into the IDF or National Service like everyone else, and support their families with dignity. But Yaron London does not want that. He does not want Haredim in IDF uniforms carrying guns, or empowered Haredim working in professional careers. He wants them reduced, shrunken, dwindled, minimized…without saying exactly how he proposes to go about shrinking an entire population, but his words do conjure up images from history as to how similar objectives of shrinking a population were carried out in the past.

4

Yaron London Haredim

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26 comments

1

Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, May 9, 2012 8:18:59am

Shameful. Especially coming from someone who is not on the fringe.

2

researchok Wed, May 9, 2012 8:19:53am

Yeah that will work. History has proved that.
/

3

shutdown Wed, May 9, 2012 8:29:57am

I understand the emotional freighting of the editorial position taken by Lapid. Nonetheless, it is important to recognize that great numbers of Israelis are increasingly frustrated with the political clout of a group which contributes very little to GDP, instead demanding ever-increasing subsidies and special treatment. Lapid offers no solutions, which is unfortunate, and also should have precluded the publishing of the piece as anything more than a letter to the editor.

Nowhere does Lapid support the notion that Haredim should not be professionally trained or empowered. He states that enlistment of Haredim into the armed forces is unlikely to lead them to professional careers, or in any way decrease the negative financial (and societal) impact of their ever-increasing numbers and demands on the rest of Israeli society.

I do not think Lapid’s piece adds anything constructive to this very urgent Israeli conundrum. At the same time, I do not think your thinly veiled references to the Holocaust are called for. Accusing an Israeli commentator of alluding to ethnic cleansing of portions of Jewish Israeli society is unbecoming.

4

Vicious Babushka Wed, May 9, 2012 8:35:46am

re: #3 Phlebas

This piece is by Yaron London, not Yair Lapid. I think that Yair Lapid’s position, which is integrating the Haredim into the IDF and the workforce, is actually quite reasonable and he has many useful ideas. Yaron London has dismissed Lapid’s position and calls for “reducing the population.” Now how exactly are we supposed to respond to “reducing the population”?

5

shutdown Wed, May 9, 2012 8:45:44am

Sorry for the misreading. My position though is the same. Before I suggest how you might respond to “reducing the population”, a statement made by a Jew in an Israeli newspaper, please state in plain English what your interpretation is of the phrase. That gives me something to which I might respond.

6

Vicious Babushka Wed, May 9, 2012 9:13:21am

re: #5 Phlebas

Sorry for the misreading. My position though is the same. Before I suggest how you might respond to “reducing the population”, a statement made by a Jew in an Israeli newspaper, please state in plain English what your interpretation is of the phrase. That gives me something to which I might respond.

Well let’s see, would you go into any community and tell them “There are too many of you, we’d like to see your numbers diminish” do you think they will happily agree? Especially since London has rejected any program to integrate into the military and the workforce. There is no nice and kindly way to interpret “reducing the population” and it immediately conjures up unpleasant images from history.

7

shutdown Wed, May 9, 2012 9:42:52am

re: #6 Learned Mother of Zion

The wording may be unfortunate in your estimation. I think a society overrun with net consumers of social services and subsidy money conjures up negative historical images, as well. I choose to interpret London’s words as implying that legal and social changes are necessary to bring about a natural shift in Haredi society, in which Haredim become less dependent on subsidies, are not exempt from general social obligations, and are integrated into modern Israeli society to the greatest extent possible. These shifts would “diminish” the numbers of Haredim the way they live today - a life style that is unsustainable. No-one should argue that Haredim ought give up their religious perspective or their desire to spend as much time as possible in the bet-midrash. Similarly, no-one ought to argue that efforts to wean Haredi society from the public teat is akin to the Holocaust.

8

Vicious Babushka Wed, May 9, 2012 9:50:27am

re: #7 Phlebas

The wording may be unfortunate in your estimation. I think a society overrun with net consumers of social services and subsidy money conjures up negative historical images, as well. I choose to interpret London’s words as implying that legal and social changes are necessary to bring about a natural shift in Haredi society, in which Haredim become less dependent on subsidies, are not exempt from general social obligations, and are integrated into modern Israeli society to the greatest extent possible. These shifts would “diminish” the numbers of Haredim the way they live today - a life style that is unsustainable. No-one should argue that Haredim ought give up their religious perspective or their desire to spend as much time as possible in the bet-midrash. Similarly, no-one ought to argue that efforts to wean Haredi society from the public teat is akin to the Holocaust.

I think you should go back and read the article by Yaron London in which he explicitly states that integration programs are not sufficient and that the population MUST BE REDUCED. Also, where did I compare this to the Holocaust? There are plenty of examples from history where attempts were made to reduce the Jewish population (start with the first chapter of Exodus), I never compared this to the Holocaust.

9

Obdicut Wed, May 9, 2012 9:53:28am

re: #8 Learned Mother of Zion

For the record, it made me think of the sterilization performed on the Roma, and the eugenics programs in Sweden, not the Holocaust.

shutdown Wed, May 9, 2012 10:12:30am

re: #8 Learned Mother of Zion

I ask you again to please state outright the comparison to which you allude. And I think that derived accusations of proposed sterilization programmes or eugenics are preposterous without some proof. Before you go about darkly implying that one Jew is suggesting the perpetration of some form of violence upon other Jews, you should have cite-able quotes to that effect.

Obdicut Wed, May 9, 2012 10:14:23am

re: #10 Phlebas

Shouldn’t it be the author you’re asking how he’d “minimize their rate within Israeli society”?

Vicious Babushka Wed, May 9, 2012 10:20:30am

re: #10 Phlebas

I ask you again to please state outright the comparison to which you allude. And I think that derived accusations of proposed sterilization programmes or eugenics are preposterous without some proof. Before you go about darkly implying that one Jew is suggesting the perpetration of some form of violence upon other Jews, you should have cite-able quotes to that effect.

OK here are some cite-able quotes. You can go back and refer to the original article to determine if they have been taken out of context or not.

Hence, the correct question is not how to draft the haredim and draw them into the job market, but rather, what should be done in order to minimize their rate within Israeli society.

Once the haredi population declines, the gravity of the issue of enlisting them to the army would decline as well.

Hence, the intellectual effort dedicated to the issue of IDF enlistment should be dedicated to the great challenge: Shrinking the ranks of the haredim.

He does not provide any suggestions on how to achieve the population reduction, just that programs for integration are not sufficient.

shutdown Wed, May 9, 2012 10:35:28am

re: #11 Obdicut

I have said that I find the author’s remarks nonconstructive. My primary concern in commenting here was the sub-text of Alouette’s remarks. Which, by the way, she still refuses to make more concrete.

shutdown Wed, May 9, 2012 10:40:47am

re: #12 Learned Mother of Zion

As stated above, I agree that his remarks are not helpful, as no potential solutions are offered. I take issue with your ongoing refusal to back up your allusion to the form this “shrinking” or “minimization” might take. I can think of many ways to achieve this that are not sinister in any way. Reduction of subsidies, both educational and fiscal, scaling back social service exemptions, providing a firmer legal basis for secular authority over various aspects of Israeli life (marriage, etc.) - all these might in some way cause the Haredi lifestyle appear less attractive to those not fully committed to its precepts, or cuase modifications to the Haredi positions themselves, leading to their partial integration into, and a lessening of their burden on the rest of Israeli society.

Vicious Babushka Wed, May 9, 2012 10:51:00am

re: #14 Phlebas

As stated above, I agree that his remarks are not helpful, as no potential solutions are offered. I take issue with your ongoing refusal to back up your allusion to the form this “shrinking” or “minimization” might take. I can think of many ways to achieve this that are not sinister in any way. Reduction of subsidies, both educational and fiscal, scaling back social service exemptions, providing a firmer legal basis for secular authority over various aspects of Israeli life (marriage, etc.) - all these might in some way cause the Haredi lifestyle appear less attractive to those not fully committed to its precepts, or cuase modifications to the Haredi positions themselves, leading to their partial integration into, and a lessening of their burden on the rest of Israeli society.

You keep saying that Yaron London’s plan to “reduce the population” are purely benign, even though he rejects the programs that are already in place to enable integration into the military and the workplace. You keep accusing me of failing to be “concrete” as to what steps Yaron London recommends as to how to achieve this “population reduction” but I can’t be any more specific than he is himself.

“Throw them all off welfare” what a great idea! Do you think that will empower people to rush out and become gainfully employed? Are there enough jobs for them? How do we respond when some GOP candidate here in the USA makes that kind of a recommendation?

Obdicut Wed, May 9, 2012 11:07:05am

re: #13 Ascher

I have said that I find the author’s remarks nonconstructive. My primary concern in commenting here was the sub-text of Alouette’s remarks. Which, by the way, she still refuses to make more concrete.

Her point is that the guy’s comments weren’t concrete, though. And there really aren’t any pleasant ways of reducing the numbers of an ethnic group or subgroup in a population.

I don’t see where you got the Holocaust. The Holocaust was not an attempt to ‘shrink’ the numbers of the Jews in the population.

shutdown Wed, May 9, 2012 11:49:57am

Reiterating, again, my points:
a) I am not supporting London
b) Alouette still refuses to state her interpretation of London’s comments in concrete terms.

Nowhere do I say “throw them all off welfare”. I refer to a reduction of various subsidies along with attempts to partially mainstream Haredim socially. I specifically state that there need be no attempt to attack Haredi religious principles; rather, I question whether it is right for the rest of Israeli society to continue to fund them, to its own detriment.

Radicalizing my statements - changing my position from “reduction of subsidies” to “throw them off welfare”, while refusing to acknowledge your own allusions in your initial post and subsequent responses precludes proper discussion. Please explain:

but his words do conjure up images from history as to how similar objectives of shrinking a population were carried out in the past.

I would be delighted to hear that you were not obliquely drawing on Holocaust or pogrom imagery.

Obdicut Wed, May 9, 2012 11:54:07am

re: #17 Ascher

b) Alouette still refuses to state her interpretation of London’s comments in concrete terms.

I think she’s made it clear that there’s no concrete conclusion to come to from it, but there’s a hell of a lot of negative weight in the idea of intentionally shrinking an ethnic group.

I specifically state that there need be no attempt to attack Haredi religious principles; rather, I question whether it is right for the rest of Israeli society to continue to fund them, to its own detriment.

Do we see smaller Haredi families in the US, where there’s a much smaller support system? I don’t have data, but I know that there are lots of complaints about the size of Haredi families that have come up in the US.

shutdown Wed, May 9, 2012 12:07:35pm

My initial post, and subsequent responses, were all predicated on my surprise at seeing Alouette make the statement I have quoted. I would love to hear, from Alouette, what she meant with her statement. My subsequent suggestions regarding subsidies, etc were meant solely to demonstrate that an entirely benign interpretation of London’s position is possible. I do not hold myself out as an expert on Israeli domestic politics, comparative Haredi birthrates, or the cost of drafting Haredim into the IDF. I simply want to know what images London’s words “conjure up” for Alouette. Without this elaboration from her, I am having a discussion with myself.

Vicious Babushka Wed, May 9, 2012 12:28:45pm

Yaron London declares he wants to “reduce the Haredi population” but omits to say how to achieve this. So why are you asking me to read his mind?

Maybe he wants to impose some kind of birth control on Haredi families, a “one child” or “two child” policy like they have in China? I don’t know BECAUSE HE HASN’T SAID THIS IS WHAT HE WANTS TO DO.

I can’t think of any benign way to reduce an entire population without some form of coercion.

Bob Levin Wed, May 9, 2012 1:46:19pm

re: #20 Learned Mother of Zion

If the title of the blog post contains the words ‘A Modest Proposal’, which is not in Ynet, then why is the opinion piece not seen as satire? Is it possible that London, like Swift, is simply running with the subtext of the entire debate?

In other words, your blog title implies that this shouldn’t be taken seriously.

shutdown Wed, May 9, 2012 7:12:03pm

re: #20 Learned Mother of Zion

Anyway I read this, “rate” means proportionate number and not a reduction of population. Maybe he could suggest rewarding non-Haredim for increasing their birthrates? Or provide a financial disincentive to Haredim to discourage leading more than a certain number of children to the public trough - a measure which could apply universally, not just to Haredim. I cannot imagine any context in which physical measures are being proposed - but that’s my interpretation. Thank you for specifying.

SanFranciscoZionist Wed, May 9, 2012 10:44:30pm

re: #7 Ascher

The wording may be unfortunate in your estimation. I think a society overrun with net consumers of social services and subsidy money conjures up negative historical images, as well. I choose to interpret London’s words as implying that legal and social changes are necessary to bring about a natural shift in Haredi society, in which Haredim become less dependent on subsidies, are not exempt from general social obligations, and are integrated into modern Israeli society to the greatest extent possible.

If that’s what he meant, he should have said. Especially given that his whinging about how it will be too hard to train haredim for the army or the job market. How, precisely, are they meant to become less dependent on subsidies and take on general social obligations, according to this man who thinks drafting them a waste of time?

SanFranciscoZionist Wed, May 9, 2012 10:45:03pm

re: #17 Ascher

I would be delighted to hear that you were not obliquely drawing on Holocaust or pogrom imagery.

Who are you, the pogrom imagery police?

The language used in the original article is bizarre and fairly triggery for Jews. Alouette takes note of this, as do I. Why is she on the carpet, precisely?

shutdown Thu, May 10, 2012 12:21:15pm

re: #24 SanFranciscoZionist

Who are you, the pogrom imagery police?

The language used in the original article is bizarre and fairly triggery for Jews. Alouette takes note of this, as do I. Why is she on the carpet, precisely?

No, I am someone who would just as soon that posters not make sly inferences to “images from history” without stating outright their opinions. And “on the carpet” is an unduly harsh qualification of my comments. I contend that making vague, open-ended, tendentious allusions is nonconstructive, especially given the subject matter. Is that wrong?

Flavia Thu, May 10, 2012 9:02:11pm

re: #9 Obdicut

For the record, it made me think of the sterilization performed on the Roma, and the eugenics programs in Sweden, not the Holocaust.

I was also thinking that he meant throwing them out.

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