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1 Decatur Deb  Tue, May 29, 2012 2:01:42pm

Arizona obviously needs to raise its speed limit and drop the open container laws.

2 Daniel Ballard  Tue, May 29, 2012 3:08:10pm

I smell an advocates moment more than useful statistics here. Why did the VPC need this particular comparison? Are gun death statistics not impressive or illuminating enough on their own? One would think so, but only if the case were strong. For a weak case, use comparisons like this one to give an impression of strength that may not be deserved.

There are way better ways to make this point.

Los Angeles has very strict gun rules. CCW's are denied across the board. All the state gun laws apply. Yet in Los Angeles alone about three people a day die in gun violence.

So how is it the loose gun laws are the real source of the problem?

3 Obdicut  Tue, May 29, 2012 4:54:34pm

re: #2 Daniel Ballard

I smell an advocates moment more than useful statistics here. Why did the VPC need this particular comparison? Are gun death statistics not impressive or illuminating enough on their own?

Comparisons tend to be helpful. More people are dying from guns in Arizona than from cars. It's useful to know that-- unless either statistic is very low, it's a problem that needs to be addressed.

Los Angeles has very strict gun rules. CCW's are denied across the board. All the state gun laws apply. Yet in Los Angeles alone about three people a day die in gun violence.

So how is it the loose gun laws are the real source of the problem?

Local gun laws are almost completely ineffective in controlling guns, it's true.

4 Daniel Ballard  Tue, May 29, 2012 5:17:21pm

re: #3 Obdicut

Local gun laws are almost completely ineffective in controlling guns, it's true.

As comparisons go I'd say it's a cherry pick at best.

It's not just local laws. We have the full weight of national, state and local laws combined.

5 Daniel Ballard  Tue, May 29, 2012 5:21:34pm

This story is not best read as a story about guns, this comparison simply shows us a triumph of road safety.


Fewer people died in Arizona car crashes last year than in any year since 1993.

New figures from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration also show that the national fatality rate dropped to the lowest ever recorded and that the number of people killed in car crashes was the smallest since 1950.

In Arizona, 807 people died on the roads in 2009. That marks a 14 percent drop from a year earlier, when 938 people died in crashes.

"I think it's a combination of things: safer cars, more seat-belt usage, more enforcement and improving attitudes of the public," said Alberto Gutier, director of the Governor's Office of Highway Safety.

Read more: [Link: www.azcentral.com...]

6 wrenchwench  Tue, May 29, 2012 5:31:21pm

re: #5 Daniel Ballard

This story is not best read as a story about guns, this comparison simply shows us a triumph of road safety.

Then isn't it equally about the lack of triumph of gun safety?

It's a story about a report released by the Violence Policy Center, a gun-control organization. They intended it to be a story about guns.

7 Obdicut  Tue, May 29, 2012 5:46:24pm

re: #4 Daniel Ballard

As comparisons go I'd say it's a cherry pick at best.

I don't know what you mean. It's a comparison. They're comparing it to something that's traditionally one of the leading causes of death.

It's not just local laws. We have the full weight of national, state and local laws combined.

Sure. I don't think gun control in general is effective at controlling guns, but local gun law is the least effective of all.

8 docproto48  Tue, May 29, 2012 5:48:44pm

Interesting my personal view has been to point out something we do every day which is of similar danger to gun violence (drive a car) what is involved to do that?
1 driver training
2 driver licensing
3 car registration
so what is wrong with
1 mandatory gun safety training
2 registration of gun users with possible loss of license
3 registration of guns

no I didn't say take them away but increase safety shooting without a license would add another penalty layer to gun violence

9 Romantic Heretic  Tue, May 29, 2012 5:53:25pm
State Sen. Frank Antenori, R-Tucson, said it is unfair to compare gun-related deaths to motor-vehicle deaths because most gun deaths are not accidental.
"Do you use a car in self-defense?" Antenori asked hypothetically.

Um, what? Is he saying that gun deaths aren't as bad because they are intentional? Is he saying that intentional car deaths should be included?

Speaking as a Canadian, I think the problem that the U.S. has with guns is cultural. It seems to me that gun violence doesn't really disturb many Americans. They regard it as a fact of life and see no reason to change it.

As long as that attitude prevails all the gun laws in the world aren't going to help.

10 Daniel Ballard  Tue, May 29, 2012 6:24:20pm

re: #8 docproto48

Interesting my personal view has been to point out something we do every day which is of similar danger to gun violence (drive a car) what is involved to do that?
1 driver training
2 driver licensing
3 car registration
so what is wrong with
1 mandatory gun safety training
2 registration of gun users with possible loss of license
3 registration of guns

no I didn't say take them away but increase safety shooting without a license would add another penalty layer to gun violence

In California we already have all that for handguns. Gun violence and road deaths are both still way too high. And we now see Arizona has had a big drop in road deaths. One more reason to not like this comparison-
I would say the comparison is BS, both should be counted per capita. Less is better regardless of the ratio between them.

11 Daniel Ballard  Tue, May 29, 2012 6:26:31pm

re: #7 Obdicut

The best way to reduce gun deaths is to reduce crimes like murder and gang activity. Training and all that is about reducing accidents.

Unfortunately Colt has been slow to make seatbelts and air bags available on handguns. (Just kidding a little levity might be a good thing here)
Actually the classic Colt model 1911 in modern form has no less than three safeties. Grip safety, thumb safety and internal slide/sear interlock. It always had 2.

12 Obdicut  Tue, May 29, 2012 7:34:43pm

re: #11 Daniel Ballard

The best way to reduce gun deaths is to reduce crimes like murder and gang activity. Training and all that is about reducing accidents.

The best way is to end the drug war. The other way is to get away from our culture of fetishizing guns, violence, and vigilantism. That'll be a large challenge.

13 DeepBlue  Tue, May 29, 2012 8:00:15pm

re: #8 docproto48

I'd also add
Mandatory Car Insurance
Liability

Where is the
Mandatory Gun Insurance?

14 RogueOne  Tue, May 29, 2012 9:06:03pm

The gun deaths include suicides, in 2009 there were 596 suicides by gun (56% of all suicides) in AZ:
(PDF)
[Link: www.azdhs.gov...]

The same study made a splash in IN last week and had the same problem.

15 docproto48  Wed, May 30, 2012 3:38:36am

re: #9 Romantic Heretic

Um, what? Is he saying that gun deaths aren't as bad because they are intentional? Is he saying that intentional car deaths should be included?

Speaking as a Canadian, I think the problem that the U.S. has with guns is cultural. It seems to me that gun violence doesn't really disturb many Americans. They regard it as a fact of life and see no reason to change it.

As long as that attitude prevails all the gun laws in the world aren't going to help.

Oh but it is BS, thats my underhanded point although I do like the addition of liability insurance to the list, thanks and as greedy as insurance companies are the fact that isn't required is very telling


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