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1 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:27:00am

Bring 'em home.

2 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:04:29am

re: #1 SanFranciscoZionist

Bring 'em home.

Their home is in Ethiopia. Religion as history is once again proven to be false.


"A 1999 study by Lucotte and Smets studied the DNA of 38 unrelated Beta Israel males living in Israel and 104 Ethiopians living in regions located north of Addis Ababa and concluded that "the distinctiveness of the Y-chromosome haplotype distribution of the Beta-Israel from conventional Jewish populations and their relatively greater similarity in haplotype profile to non-Jewish Ethiopians are consistent with the view that the Beta Israel people descended from ancient inhabitants of Ethiopia and not the Levant."

"A 2002 study of Mitochondrial DNA (which is passed through only maternal lineage to both men and women) by Thomas et al. showed that the most common mtDNA type found among the Ethiopian Jews sample was present only in Somalia. This further supported the view that all Ethiopian Beta-Israel were of local or Ethiopian origin."

3 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 12:22:48pm

re: #2 Destro

What you left out:

A 2010 study by Behar et al. on the Genome-wide structure of Jews observed that the Beta Israel had similar levels of the Middle Eastern genetic clusters as the Semitic-speaking Tigreans and Amharas. Indeed, compared to the Cushitic-speaking Oromos, who are the largest ethnic group in Ethiopia, the Beta Israel had higher levels of Middle Eastern admixture.[58]

4 Bob Levin  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 12:39:39pm

re: #2 Destro

How about 'religion as identity'? Not allowed?

5 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 1:15:12pm

re: #4 Bob Levin

How about 'religion as identity'? Not allowed?

So Israel is the homeland for Christians now also and they should be welcomed home? The issue is the fake history being pushed by religionists that is hurting the world.

6 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 1:19:34pm

re: #3 researchok

What you left out:

re: #3 researchok

What you left out:

You mean that people living next door to Yemen might have some Yemenite DNA. Yea. Arabs have more DNA and language links to Jews than the Ethiopian Beta Israels but they are not welcomed so much.

7 Bob Levin  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 1:56:51pm

re: #5 Destro

First, you didn't answer my question.

Second, as a matter of fact, there are many Christians who live in Israel. There is even a quarter of the Old City that they consider home.

Arabs have more DNA and language links to Jews than the Ethiopian Beta Israels but they are not welcomed so much.

That is like so totally weird, because in 1947 the Arabs didn't welcome us home, nor did they welcome us home in the 30s, or 20s. And they weren't having a parade in our honor in 1967, or 1973. So I think history is showing that the UnWelcome Mat is facing the other way. Were the 10,000 rockets party fireworks?

Looks like that fake history, alluded to as the topic of this post, is sure working on you.

8 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 3:21:42pm

Reality is Arabs/Muslims treated Jews way better than any Christians have and Maimonides considered Muslims true Noahides unlike Christians.

9 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 3:48:36pm

re: #8 Destro

Reality is Arabs/Muslims treated Jews way better than any Christians have and Maimonides considered Muslims true Noahides unlike Christians.

Why should you care what Maimonides thought of whom? You've made your disdain for religious thought pretty evident. What difference should it make who's a Noachide and who isn't?

If you're under the impression that the fact that the Muslim world was generally an improvement on the Christian throughout history as far as Jews were concerned means that Jews were not considered second-class citizens, discriminated against, and occasionally slaughtered in the Arab/Muslim world, you may want to do some additional research.

10 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 3:51:08pm

re: #5 Destro

So Israel is the homeland for Christians now also and they should be welcomed home? The issue is the fake history being pushed by religionists that is hurting the world.

The poor suffering world. The world is suffering because Israel is willing to take in slightly over 2,000 Ethiopian Jews, even though you've explained to them that they're stupid for considering these people part of am Yisrael.

Dude, what? How is it hurting the world if these people live in Israel, in Ethiopia, or on the moon? There's two-freaking-thousand of them. It's not going to make or break anything.

11 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 3:58:10pm

re: #10 SanFranciscoZionist

The poor suffering world. The world is suffering because Israel is willing to take in slightly over 2,000 Ethiopian Jews, even though you've explained to them that they're stupid for considering these people part of am Yisrael.

Dude, what? How is it hurting the world if these people live in Israel, in Ethiopia, or on the moon? There's two-freaking-thousand of them. It's not going to make or break anything.

Please don't put words in my mouth I was disputing a member's comments that the "Ethiopian Jews were returning home" as if they were once there in ancient times and migrated to Ethiopia (you knoew another of those lost tribes myths). That is all. No other comment by me was made other than to cite DNA evidence showing the Ethopian "Beta Israel" DNA disproves the assertion that these are lost Jews and that they are identical to local Ethiopian populations. I just don't liek religious mumbo jumbo to justify real world policies.

12 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 4:02:21pm

re: #9 SanFranciscoZionist

All I wrote was that Jews were treated much better in Islamic lands than Christian ones. And by much better I mean many degrees better to the point it makes the Christian hatred of Jews look deranged.

13 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 4:04:48pm

re: #11 Destro

Please don't put words in my mouth I was disputing a member's comments that the "Ethiopian Jews were returning home" as if they were once there in ancient times and migrated to Ethiopia (you knoew another of those lost tribes myths). That is all. No other comment by me was made other than to cite DNA evidence showing the Ethopian "Beta Israel" DNA disproves the assertion that these are lost Jews and that they are identical to local Ethiopian populations. I just don't liek religious mumbo jumbo to justify real world policies.

They're not 'lost Jews', they're just Jews. And they've been persecuted as Jews. I'm sorry Israel isn't accepting your definition of who is a Jew, but you're gonna need to live with it.

14 Bob Levin  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 4:11:20pm

re: #12 Destro

And by much better I mean many degrees better to the point it makes the Christian hatred of Jews look deranged.

Do you mean that there is a point where it doesn't look 'deranged'? It's a comparative term? I've always thought this hatred itself was a sign of derangement. That's why folks aren't so eager to chill on the topic.

15 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 4:12:18pm

re: #13 SanFranciscoZionist

They're not 'lost Jews', they're just Jews. And they've been persecuted as Jews. I'm sorry Israel isn't accepting your definition of who is a Jew, but you're gonna need to live with it.

I am actually intellectually OK with someone saying what you said. Again I was correcting the assertion that the Ethiopian "Beta Israel" Jews were "returning home". The reality is the Ethiopian Jews were leaving their homes to enter a new life of refugees in a new land where their own faith as practiced in Ethiopia is forced to end in Israel. Which is ironic because the state of Israel is saving the Ethiopian Jews from persecution per your claim but once they arrive in Israel are forced to end the practice of their faith as they have practiced it.

16 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 4:15:01pm

re: #14 Bob Levin

Do you mean that there is a point where it doesn't look 'deranged'? It's a comparative term? I've always thought this hatred itself was a sign of derangement. That's why folks aren't so eager to chill on the topic.

I just wanted to repeat the currently lost history that the Muslims treated the Jewish people many degrees better than Christians did. Until the European enlightenment and even then. That other commentator wanted to downplay this to show Jews were living just as bad under Muslims as under Christians. That is a lie.

17 Decatur Deb  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 4:16:12pm

re: #14 Bob Levin

Do you mean that there is a point where it doesn't look 'deranged'? It's a comparative term? I've always thought this hatred itself was a sign of derangement. That's why folks aren't so eager to chill on the topic.

Unfortunately there is nothing deranged when a dominant group experiencing stress or sensing profit turns Jungle on a small, identifiable out-group. It's pretty much part of the Human Constant.

18 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 5:57:34pm

re: #15 Destro

Again I was correcting the assertion that the Ethiopian "Beta Israel" Jews were "returning home".

You shouldn't put text in quotes that isn't a verbatim citation. SFZ never said "returning," she said "bring 'em home." I get the idea that she'd say the same about southeast asian converts to reform judaism if they were being persecuted and wanted to emigrate, and she'd be right. Home is where the heart is, and insisting that the term must always refer to one's racial/ancestral homeland strikes me as some incredibly pedantic bullshit.

19 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 6:07:26pm

re: #18 goddamnedfrank

You shouldn't put text in quotes that isn't a verbatim citation. SFZ never said "returning," she said "bring 'em home." I get the idea that she'd say the same about southeast asian converts to reform judaism if they were being persecuted and wanted to emigrate, and she'd be right. Home is where the heart is, and insisting that the term must always refer to one's racial/ancestral homeland strikes me as some incredibly pedantic bullshit.

Yea, fairy tale pie in the sky story if you know that these Ethiopian Jews are denied their homeland's version of Jewish religion and made to convert to the state version of Judaism. What is bullshit is the story that the Ethiopian Jews are a lost tribe of Israle and being returned "home", when they share neither the language nor the traditions nor the same Judaism as the state religion. It is to me European colonialism at its worst.

20 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 6:23:56pm

re: #6 Destro

Nice try but Ethiopia is hardly 'next door'

Try again.

21 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 6:27:46pm

re: #8 Destro

Source?

Because I can give you many sources that dispute that blanket claim.

There were times Muslim Caliphs did treat Jews well, but that was not always the case.

The same can be said for Christians.

Try again. And remember, simple assertions and information out of context does not serve your cause.

I must say your seeming obsession with Jews is most interesting- clinically speaking, of course.

22 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 6:29:27pm

re: #16 Destro

Based on what information exactly, is this a lie?

23 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 6:30:54pm

re: #8 Destro

Google search results do not equal intelligence.

Thank you for highlighting that truth once again.

And for the entertainment.

24 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 6:32:56pm

By the way, Destro, do you consider Ashkenazi Jews as real Jews?

Just so we're clear.

25 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 6:52:39pm

re: #19 Destro

Yea, fairy tale pie in the sky story if you know that these Ethiopian Jews are denied their homeland's version of Jewish religion and made to convert to the state version of Judaism. What is bullshit is the story that the Ethiopian Jews are a lost tribe of Israle and being returned "home", when they share neither the language nor the traditions nor the same Judaism as the state religion.

Their homeland's version of Jewish religion was forced conversion to Christianity. Yes, if they want to emigrate to Israel, which again nobody is forcing them to do, they have to do it as Jews, duh.

It is to me European colonialism at its worst.

LOL. Your sense of European colonialism must be remarkably sanitized then. There is no coercion here to emigrate, no exploitation of natural resources, and no actual colony. Instead minority members of an impoverished third world nation are being given an opportunity to have a life and raise their families in a first world country. Their children will have access to modern education and healthcare instead of a 50% literacy rate and famine.

26 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 6:56:21pm

re: #20 researchok

Nice try but Ethiopia is hardly 'next door'

Try again.

Ethiopia is next door to the middle east. See Yemen. Relion and science don't mix. Don't try.

27 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 6:59:01pm

re: #21 researchok

Source?

Because I can give you many sources that dispute that blanket claim.

There were times Muslim Caliphs did treat Jews well, but that was not always the case.

The same can be said for Christians.

Try again. And remember, simple assertions and information out of context does not serve your cause.

I must say your seeming obsession with Jews is most interesting- clinically speaking, of course.

I am not obsessed with Jews but I am obsessed with religious claims in the real world dictating political decisions. And yea, it is self evident Islamic Civilization (and no I am not a Muslim nor A-rab) did treat Jews better than Christian civilization. Only a freerepublic type would disagree. And no I don't much like Islamisim either.

28 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:02:25pm

re: #24 researchok

By the way, Destro, do you consider Ashkenazi Jews as real Jews?

Just so we're clear.

I consider Ashkenazi Jews to be European Jews. I am talking about the claim of Ethiopians returning "home" to Israel when everything indicates their home is Ethiopia. and I consider ethiopians to be whatever they claim to be but of course in israel they are forced to convert to an alien religion to them.

29 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:06:08pm

re: #26 Destro

The distance is considerable, given the reality of travel even just a few hundred years ago. An entire population predicated on casual and limited contact is nothing short of remarkable, wouldn't you say? Not to mention their continued attachment to their declared faith. Unless you have some other problem with these Ethiopians, of course.

Also, you can't seem to negate the Arab DNA factor (and I understand why you chose to leave that pesky bit of reality out. Really, I do.)

Try again.

30 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:07:41pm

re: #25 goddamnedfrank

Their homeland's version of Jewish religion was forced conversion to Christianity. Yes, if they want to emigrate to Israel, which again nobody is forcing them to do, they have to do it as Jews, duh.

LOL. Your sense of European colonialism must be remarkably sanitized then. There is no coercion here to emigrate, no exploitation of natural resources, and no actual colony. Instead minority members of an impoverished third world nation are being given an opportunity to have a life and raise their families in a first world country. Their children will have access to modern education and healthcare instead of a 50% literacy rate and famine.

Serioulsy? You take people from the Ethiopian horror of that time who were told they were Jews just like the iSraelis they are brought over and then lo! they are told their tribal elders are not true religous authorities and their marriages are not true marriages and they are not really Jews now convert or not be granted rights etc in the new land they were taken to? Seriously?

31 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:12:09pm

re: #28 Destro

Sorry, you didn't answer the question., though I give you props for the dance.

Do you consider Ashkenazi Jews to be of the same stock as the Jews of antiquity? Do you believe Israel si their home?

Also, the Ethiopians are not forced against their will to either move to Israel or have their religious status validated by a 'foreign' religion (again, the dance is somewhat old). They are free to go through a ritual or not.

By the way, were you aware the rescue of Ethiopian Jews was and remains the largest rescue of Africans by white people in history (this is where you jump in and object- 'Jews are not white!)

How about rescue of black Africans by non Africans?

How do you feel about that?

32 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:12:49pm

re: #27 Destro

Get back to the question.

Source of your assertions?

Your assertion that you are not obsessed with Jews is at odds with your remarks.

33 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:18:29pm

re: #30 Destro

Again, your remarks are distorted

Tee Ethiopian Jews are not forced to convert to a 'foreign' religion.

There are Jews in Israel of all stripes. There are Samaritans. There 'Christian Jews' and a host of other groups.

There are also Christian groups and sects of all stripes.

I'm fascinated by your obsession with Jews given your claim to be interested only in politics.

Given your antipathy to religion, why are you so concerned with how Jews practice their faith or what they believe.

34 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:19:22pm

re: #29 researchok

The distance is considerable, given the reality of travel even just a few hundred years ago. An entire population predicated on casual and limited contact is nothing short of remarkable, wouldn't you say? Not to mention their continued attachment to their declared faith. Unless you have some other problem with these Ethiopians, of course.

Also, you can't seem to negate the Arab DNA factor (and I understand why you chose to leave that pesky bit of reality out. Really, I do.)

Try again.

You are trying to twist the DNA to shpow that the Ethiopian beta are anything but Ethiopians. The Yemen and Ethiopian links are ancient and well known and not that difficult. Sorry, science trumps voodoo.

35 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:19:29pm

re: #30 Destro

And by the way, you said the Ethiopians 'were told they were Jews'?

By whom? When?

Source please?

36 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:23:52pm

re: #34 Destro

Science?

Then why did you leave this most saient quote out of your earlier remarks?

A 2010 study by Behar et al. on the Genome-wide structure of Jews observed that the Beta Israel had similar levels of the Middle Eastern genetic clusters as the Semitic-speaking Tigreans and Amharas. Indeed, compared to the Cushitic-speaking Oromos, who are the largest ethnic group in Ethiopia, the Beta Israel had higher levels of Middle Eastern admixture.[58]

The Ethiopian Jews had similar genetic clusters as other Jews.

It seems to me your the one pushing voodoo- and phony science.

You would havce been more credible had you limited your remarks to cultural difference.

I guess you just couldn't help yourself.

Also, you said:

The Yemen and Ethiopian links are ancient and well known and not that difficult.

Source please?

37 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:25:34pm

re: #31 researchok

Do you consider Ashkenazi Jews to be of the same stock as the Jews of antiquity? Do you believe Israel si their home?

Yes, Israel was the home of the Jews 2,000 years ago. There was a large number of Jews who lived outside of Israel before the Romans did their ethnic cleansing also. Do Jews who left Israel on their own count the plce as home the same as those kicked out? (and we don't know if those kicked out went to the Persian empire over the Roman one). You see history is complicted.

In any case the Arabs (nor the Christians) kicked the Jews out of their homeland.

Also, Israel is a UN member and has a right to exist as all UN members do. I keep getting asked this like I will declare Israel some evil state which it is not. I do have a problem with American zealots of Israel be they Christian end time kooks or knee jerk defenders and I don't like the religous kookery used to justify Israel's existence (UN charter and the Westphalian sovereignty is good enough).

38 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:26:28pm

re: #35 researchok

And by the way, you said the Ethiopians 'were told they were Jews'?

By whom? When?

Source please?

You mean Beta Israelites (those are the Ethiopians I was talking about) were told they were not Jews?

39 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:29:12pm

re: #37 Destro

re: #37 Destro

So to be clear, Israel can be considered home for all descendants of European Jews who decide to live there.

Right?

40 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:31:09pm

re: #38 Destro

They were told their status was unclear (like a chain of custody).

41 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:34:30pm

re: #35 researchok

And by the way, you said the Ethiopians 'were told they were Jews'?

By whom? When?

Source please?

Peres pledges to resume Ethiopian Jews airlift . The Associated Press .Gainesville Sun - Jan 9, 1985..
Gainesville Sun - Jan 9, 1985

42 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:37:07pm

This is devolving.

43 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:39:46pm

re: #41 Destro

No, Peres was responding to their claim and belief they were Jews.

Try again.

44 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:41:35pm

re: #42 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes and no.

No free rides for anyone who misrepresents truth.

Did you notice how he carefully avoids answering certain questions?

45 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:44:34pm

re: #44 researchok

Yes and no.

No free rides for anyone who misrepresents truth.

Did you notice how he carefully avoids answering certain questions?

I am pretty sue I am not avoiding questions. You may not like the answers. If I overlooked a question let me know.

46 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:45:29pm

re: #45 Destro

So to be clear, Israel can be considered home for all descendants of European Jews who decide to live there.

Right?

47 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:45:57pm

re: #43 researchok

No, Peres was responding to their claim and belief they were Jews.

Try again.

Right. And trying to change people's versions of their faith which they claim is just as valid a form of Judaism is not abhorent to you?

48 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:48:44pm

re: #30 Destro

and their marriages are not true marriages

Israel fully honors marriages performed outside its jurisdiction. Nobody's being told that their civil or religious marriages are invalid or that their spouse isn't really their spouse.

49 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:51:04pm

Citizenship status is derived by way of one of two criteria- ‘blood’ or ‘land.’

In the United States, for example, citizenship is primarily derived by ‘land’ status. That means that if you were born here, you are automatically awarded citizenship.

Conversely, being born in Switzerland is no guarantee of citizenship. In fact, there are generations of people that have been born in Switzerland that are not entitled to Swiss citizenship according to Swiss law.

Descendants of British, Irish and Polish ancestry, for example, are all entitled to enhanced and privileged immigration status by those nations. Throughout most of Europe, having even a bit of ‘preferred’ blood entitles one to a citizenship ‘fast track.’

Israel is a sovereign state, as you noted. Israel has every right to determine her own immigration rules., notwithstanding your own rather obsessive beliefs.

I also find that obsession with Jews interesting. You don't seem to be bothered by some states in the region who won't tolerate Jews and 'Promise to finish what Hitler started'. Considering you claim a certain morality, I find that odd.

You can understand why someone might see you as obsessed with Jews.

Know what I mean?

50 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:51:50pm

re: #47 Destro

I'm sorry- do you have the same problems with Catholics and MOrmons?

Or Just Jews?

51 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:52:49pm

Thing is, I am irate about the way the Israeli rabbinate has handled the issue of the Ethiopian minhag, and we might have some common ground to discover there, if it wasn't for the rest of the bloody thread.

BTW, I think when our friend says 'they were told they were Jews', he is not saying they didn't think so before, but accusing the Israeli government of perfidy in that they permitted the Beta Israel to make aliyah, but didn't somehow prevent the subsequent fights over religious status.

Once again, a fascinating and arguable topic in a thread so heavily tainted I can't see much point in keeping it up.

It was about the point we hit 'European colonialism' that I gave up. The ground just won't hold still under my feet.

52 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:55:09pm

On the other hand, given that I have been writing angry letters for years now about the importance of letting the Falash Mura make aliyah, I suppose I should be knocking back with a drink right now, rather than arguing the details.

53 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:56:01pm

re: #46 researchok

So to be clear, Israel can be considered home for all descendants of European Jews who decide to live there.

Right?

You asked me the origins of Ashkenazi Jews and I replied they are European Jews as Sephardic Jews are "Arabic" Jews, etc. Is this wrong and if so why?

Israel is a sovereign nation and full UN member and can thus grant citizenship as she sees fit. Though I am distressed in how Ethiopian Jews were forced to assimilate and find that just as troubling as how American Indians were Americanized by missionaries.

54 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 7:56:57pm

re: #53 Destro


So to be clear, Israel can be considered home for all descendants of European Jews who decide to live there.

Right?

It's a yes or no answer.

Why the dance?

55 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:00:01pm

re: #50 researchok

I'm sorry- do you have the same problems with Catholics and MOrmons?

Or Just Jews?

I don't believe in the supernatural and I don't accept the characterization I have a problem with Jews and I don't beat my wife either.

56 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:01:37pm

re: #49 researchok

Citizenship status is derived by way of one of two criteria- ‘blood’ or ‘land.’

In the United States, for example, citizenship is primarily derived by ‘land’ status. That means that if you were born here, you are automatically awarded citizenship.

Conversely, being born in Switzerland is no guarantee of citizenship. In fact, there are generations of people that have been born in Switzerland that are not entitled to Swiss citizenship according to Swiss law.

Descendants of British, Irish and Polish ancestry, for example, are all entitled to enhanced and privileged immigration status by those nations. Throughout most of Europe, having even a bit of ‘preferred’ blood entitles one to a citizenship ‘fast track.’

Israel is a sovereign state, as you noted. Israel has every right to determine her own immigration rules., notwithstanding your own rather obsessive beliefs.

I also find that obsession with Jews interesting. You don't seem to be bothered by some states in the region who won't tolerate Jews and 'Promise to finish what Hitler started'. Considering you claim a certain morality, I find that odd.

You can understand why someone might see you as obsessed with Jews.

Know what I mean?

Really???? Look up Destro on Freerepublic and my posts on Islam and then get back to me, sparky. And yes, I am that Destro.

57 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:02:47pm

re: #55 Destro

You said

Right. And trying to change people's versions of their faith which they claim is just as valid a form of Judaism is not abhorent to you?

Again: Do you have the same problems with Catholics and Mormons?

Or is it just the Jewish faith that bothers you?

Simple question.

58 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:04:43pm

re: #56 Destro

I don't care who you are. You aren't that important to me- not to mention I have no way of knowing if you are the same person.

And do your remarks on Islam make you an anti Muslim bigot as well?

59 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:06:24pm

re: #53 Destro

You asked me the origins of Ashkenazi Jews and I replied they are European Jews as Sephardic Jews are "Arabic" Jews, etc. Is this wrong and if so why?

Hard to tell, given that I'm not clear what you mean by 'European'. If we're speaking of minhag, you're close. The Ashkenazi minhag originated in Northern Europe; Northern France and Germany, and was brought by the end of the thirteenth century to Poland and points east in Russia, where it eventually ran into other minhagim, such as the Bukharans.

The second half is incorrect, although understandably so. The Sephardic minhag is also European, since it originated in Spain and Southern France, although many Sephardim have lived in Arab countries over the past several hundred years. The term 'Mizrahim' is usually used to describe Jews from an Arabic-speaking, non-Sephardic minhag. However, since 'Sephardic' was used for some time, incorrectly, to mean all Jews from non-Ashkenazi European, Middle Eastern or North African minhagim, if you're using it in that sense, you are correct.

However, if we're speaking of 'origins' as in the genetics of the people, the discussion gets trickier.

60 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:09:35pm

re: #54 researchok

So to be clear, Israel can be considered home for all descendants of European Jews who decide to live there.

Right?

It's a yes or no answer.

Why the dance?

Israel grants citizenship to all Jews (as they see Jewery) including European Jews. Home is like a word some retard uses to describe big boy concepts like citizenship and sovereignty. Let's use college level terminology shall we? I know we are Americans but let's class it up a bit.

61 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:13:50pm

re: #60 Destro

Still waiting for an answer

So to be clear, Israel can be considered home for all descendants of European Jews who decide to live there.

Right?

Do you accept that?

And why the dance? I know what Israel immigration policy is.

I want to know what you believe.

62 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:14:43pm

re: #58 researchok

I don't care who you are. You aren't that important to me- not to mention I have no way of knowing if you are the same person.

And do your remarks on Islam make you an anti Muslim bigot as well?

I am on record against Islamism though I was also excessive in the blood lust against them after 9/11. That is true, you can't know if I am Destro from back then since I was banned on Freerepublic but why would I pick an obscure poster from there? (Destro is not a famous poster by any means it is just I have a history of posts there).

I just find it funny you wanted me to declare death to islam or iran or something as some sort of litmus test which tells me you do care who I am and what I think. Anyway, maybe some one here will remember me since I recognize some people.

I just think you are in knee jerk mode as I once was on certain issues so you take everything as some sort of slight and it is also very Freerepublic like in a way. Times change though.

63 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:15:37pm

re: #62 Destro

I just find it funny you wanted me to declare death to islam or iran or something as some sort of litmus test which tells me you do care who I am and what I think. Anyway, maybe some one here will remember me since I recognize some people.

Really? Where exactly did I say that?

64 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:19:43pm

re: #61 researchok

Still waiting for an answer

So to be clear, Israel can be considered home for all descendants of European Jews who decide to live there.

Right?

Do you accept that?

And why the dance? I know what Israel immigration policy is.

I want to know what you believe.

I accept it because it is reality. Europeans have such laws of return themselves like Russia, Germany, Greece, etc.

I still don't get why you are looking for my super duper confirmation of this. I mean I know my fellow American know jack about the rest of the world but laws of return exist in many countries that take in populations that have lived and originated outside of their modern nation state borders (Like I said, Germany, Russia, Greece, China).

65 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:21:43pm

re: #60 Destro

Home is like a word some retard uses to describe big boy concepts like citizenship and sovereignty. Let's use college level terminology shall we? I know we are Americans but let's class it up a bit.

Now you know that home is the word SFZ used at the beginning of this thread. You're really being a pedantic, rude little asshole at this point. Wake me when you feel like engaging in actual dialog instead of acting like an insufferable know it all engaging in hyperbolic nonsense while unable to even get basic facts straight about Israeli marriage laws. Also, FYI for most people "European colonialism at its worst" means shit like virtual genocide in the Belgian Congo or the Dutch East India Company's reign of violence, not flying refugees into your country and giving them a place to live, welfare benefits, education and free healthcare.

Seriously, go fuck yourself.

66 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:23:33pm

re: #63 researchok

Really? Where exactly did I say that?

You wrote:

I also find that obsession with Jews interesting. You don't seem to be bothered by some states in the region who won't tolerate Jews and 'Promise to finish what Hitler started'. Considering you claim a certain morality, I find that odd.

Maybe I did not comment on that because it did not come up recently??? If you want a past comment on that I directed you to where I did touch on the subject. Of course fair enough there is no way for me to prove its me (it is). But you said that does not matter to you so that is fair enough also.

67 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:24:11pm

re: #64 Destro

You're just repeating what I said.

I want to know if you believe European Jews ought to have the right to return to their stated homeland.

I know what Israeli policy is- I want to know what you believe.

Admittedly, by avoiding the question, one might be able to draw a reasonable conclusion for themselves.

And since we're on the topic, there are a number of other questions you have not answered.

68 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:25:41pm

re: #65 goddamnedfrank

Now you know that home is the word SFZ used at the beginning of this thread. You're really being a pedantic, rude little asshole at this point. Wake me when you feel like engaging in actual dialog instead of acting like an insufferable know it all engaging in hyperbolic nonsense while unable to even get basic facts straight about Israeli marriage laws. Also, FYI for most people the "European colonialism at its worst" means shit like virtual genocide in the Belgian Congo or the Dutch East India Company's reign of violence, not flying refugees into your country and giving them place to live, welfare benefits, education and free healthcare.

Seriously, go fuck yourself.

What the Israelis did to the Ethiopian Jews is more akin to what missionaries did to native Americans and their traditions.

69 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:29:43pm

re: #65 goddamnedfrank

I apologize for the 'retard' remark. But regarding "home" if Ethiopian Jews were returning home they would not need to go through a conversion process. This I feel it is deceptive of that. In fact European Jews do return 'home' to Israel since their culture created modern Israel but Ethiopian Jews do not arrive in a place that was like their home and are told they must change or be strangers.

How is that?

70 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:30:22pm

re: #66 Destro


How on earth would you interpret that as a response to my remarks?

I just find it funny you wanted me to declare death to islam or iran or something as some sort of litmus test which tells me you do care who I am and what I think. Anyway, maybe some one here will remember me since I recognize some people.

What I said was

I also find that obsession with Jews interesting. You don't seem to be bothered by some states in the region who won't tolerate Jews and 'Promise to finish what Hitler started'. Considering you claim a certain morality, I find that odd.

You seem obsessed with how Jews treat minorities but seem not to care a whit about how others in the region treat minorities.

Nowhere did I say I expected you to declare death to Islam or any other such bigoted kind of remark.

Again, the dance fails.

71 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:30:54pm

re: #67 researchok

But regarding "home" if Ethiopian Jews were returning home they would not need to go through a conversion process. This I feel it is deceptive of that. In fact European Jews do return 'home' to Israel since their culture created modern Israel but Ethiopian Jews do not arrive in a place that was like their home and are told they must change or be strangers.

How is that?

72 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:32:04pm

re: #68 Destro

Really? How many Ethiopian Jews have died at the hands of the Israelis? Where is the stated Israeli policy of eradicating or subjugating Ethiopians?

Try again

73 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:35:14pm

re: #72 researchok

What the Israelis did to the Ethiopian Jews is more akin to what missionaries did to native Americans and their traditions. Missionaries are not cowboys killing Indians. My allusion to the Ethiopian culture means the Indian was forced to take on the culture of the missionary and abandon their own like Ethiopian Jews are forced to do.

74 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:36:43pm

re: #71 Destro

The religious process is not your business.

Do you presume to dictate religious expressions to Muslims, Hindus or Presbyterians?

But I digress.

The question was:

I want to know if you believe European Jews ought to have the right to return to their stated homeland.

I know what Israeli policy is- I want to know what you believe.

Inasmuch as you are comfortable dictating religious dictum to Jews, this question is mild in comparison.

And since we're back to questions again, do you have the same comfort in dictating to Muslims and Mormons what their religious beliefs ought to be?

75 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:37:44pm

re: #70 researchok

You seem obsessed with how Jews treat minorities but seem not to care a whit about how others in the region treat minorities.

That is a lie and I have posted tons on how Christian populations in the Middle East are under threat and how Syria's civil war may lead to inter tribal wars there, etc. I literally have thousands of post on the web as Destro (though not on here).

So don't assume stuff.

76 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:38:09pm

re: #73 Destro

Actually, French missionaries were responsible for the death of many Native Americans.

For someone who is supposed to know history, that is a glaring gap.

77 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:40:06pm

re: #75 Destro

Well, inasmuch as we don't know if you really are that same Destro, why don't restate your positions on the treatment of Christians and Jews by some segments of the Muslim population?

78 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:40:13pm

re: #74 researchok

The religious process is not your business.

Do you presume to dictate religious expressions to Muslims, Hindus or Presbyterians?

But I digress.

The question was:

Inasmuch as you are comfortable dictating religious dictum to Jews, this question is mild in comparison.

And since we're back to questions again, do you have the same comfort in dictating to Muslims and Mormons what their religious beliefs ought to be?

Hell yea, I will dictate what Muslims and Mormons and Christians do with their beliefs if they get all crazy like try to ban evolution teaching in schools or some such religous voodooery for example.

79 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:41:29pm

re: #68 Destro

What the Israelis did to the Ethiopian Jews is more akin to what missionaries did to native Americans and their traditions.

No, it isn't, at all. The Israelis didn't move into Ethiopia, conquer the Betas and fuck up their shit. They didn't march the Betas into isolated reservations, move them again onto new reservations when natural resources were discovered, decimate them with disease, pit them against each other, ban their language, or ban their religious practices. They did offer them a new way of life and, if they wanted to become citizens instead of residents, they required them to go through a formal religious conversion to Judaism. So far your analogies are so utterly fucking full of fail it's amazing that anyone could possibly type them with a straight face.

80 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:41:50pm

re: #78 Destro

No, that is a political response.

Are you as comfortable dictating religious criticism?

81 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:44:57pm

re: #78 Destro

By the way, you forgot to answer this query:

Were you aware the rescue of Ethiopian Jews was and remains the largest rescue of Africans by white people in history (this is where you jump in and object- 'Jews are not white!)

How about rescue of black Africans by non Africans?

How do you feel about that?

I wonder how the old Destro would feel about that.

Might be worth a search.

82 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:52:59pm

re: #79 goddamnedfrank

This isn't about Israel for him.

It goes a lot deeper.

83 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:53:49pm

re: #79 goddamnedfrank

No, it isn't, at all. The Israelis didn't move into Ethiopia, conquer the Betas and fuck up their shit. They didn't march the Betas into isolated reservations, move them again onto new reservations when natural resources were discovered, decimate them with disease, pit them against each other, ban their language, or ban their religious practices. They did offer them a new way of life and, if they wanted to become citizens instead of residents, they required them to go through a formal religious conversion to Judaism. So far your analogies are so utterly fucking full of fail it's amazing that anyone could possibly type them with a straight face.

I know they're asking it of the Falash Mura now, but my understanding was that the earlier groups, who had not become Christians, were not required to go through a Rabbanite conversion for citizenship, since they entered under the Law of Return. I know they were heavily encouraged to do so, but there was some push-back. Am I mistaken?

84 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:55:32pm

re: #81 researchok

By the way, you forgot to answer this query:

Were you aware the rescue of Ethiopian Jews was and remains the largest rescue of Africans by white people in history (this is where you jump in and object- 'Jews are not white!)

How about rescue of black Africans by non Africans?

How do you feel about that?

I wonder how the old Destro would feel about that.

Might be worth a search.

Why would I deny Jews are white. Do you think I am one of those kooks that thinks Jews are like Khazars and thus not real Jews or one of those David Duke assholes? Fuvk you if you do. Yea, I don't accept any such thing as racial superiority, etc and I am sure the Republican party is now the Dixie-crat racists of old and I am 100% against them and I used to be a Republican.

85 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:57:25pm

It is interesting to note Destro is seemingly unconcerned with the plight of the 350,000 Palestine who were unceremoniously given the boot from Kuwait.

Never mind- it wasn't Jews who booted them out.

And I guess there haven't been enough deaths in Syria to be on his radar.

86 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 8:59:18pm

re: #84 Destro

Again, the essential question:

Were you aware the rescue of Ethiopian Jews was and remains the largest rescue of Africans by white people in history?

How do you feel about that?

87 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:00:34pm

re: #51 SanFranciscoZionist

Thing is, I am irate about the way the Israeli rabbinate has handled the issue of the Ethiopian minhag, and we might have some common ground to discover there, if it wasn't for the rest of the bloody thread.

BTW, I think when our friend says 'they were told they were Jews', he is not saying they didn't think so before, but accusing the Israeli government of perfidy in that they permitted the Beta Israel to make aliyah, but didn't somehow prevent the subsequent fights over religious status.

Once again, a fascinating and arguable topic in a thread so heavily tainted I can't see much point in keeping it up.

It was about the point we hit 'European colonialism' that I gave up. The ground just won't hold still under my feet.

What I meant by European Colonialism is that we have people (and yes they are European or were) telling Ethiopian Jews that they have to change their views of being Jewish that they held but an Askenashi Jew from Germany can move in and change nothing.

And the term European like colonisalism is one I heard the Ethiopian Jews in Isreal under distress from this policy also use.

88 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:03:00pm

re: #86 researchok

Again, the essential question:

re: #85 researchok

It is interesting to note Destro is seemingly unconcerned with the plight of the 350,000 Palestine who were unceremoniously given the boot from Kuwait.

Never mind- it wasn't Jews who booted them out.

And I guess there haven't been enough deaths in Syria to be on his radar.

I said that the Palestinains should be granted a home land on the West Bank, etc and I am no record as not supporting any Arabic regime ruled by Islamists or despots. And I did not think I needed a litmus test before I offered any opinions on Israel.

89 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:04:24pm

re: #87 Destro

Are you as comfortable dictating religious criticism to Muslims or Mormons or Catholics as you are to Jews?

I'm asking again because you have yet to answer that question.

90 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:06:02pm

re: #88 Destro

How do you feel about the Kuwaitis who booted out the Palestinians? How do you feel abut Assad's Alawites butchering Sunnis?

That was the question.

91 researchok  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:10:10pm

We'll play again tomorrow night, destro.

That ought to give you plenty of time of find new material.

92 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:12:26pm

re: #87 Destro

What I meant by European Colonialism is that we have people (and yes they are European or were) telling Ethiopian Jews that they have to change their views of being Jewish that they held but an Askenashi Jew from Germany can move in and change nothing.

And the term European like colonisalism is one I heard the Ethiopian Jews in Isreal under distress from this policy also use.

No, people like, say, Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef did not 'used to be European'.

93 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:13:01pm

re: #90 researchok

How do you feel about the Kuwaitis who booted out the Palestinians? How do you feel abut Assad's Alawites butchering Sunnis?

That was the question.

That's complicated because if the Sunni wins they will probably butcher the Alawites and Christians and secularist. This sort of thing has happened before. The USA backed the Kosovo Muslims against the 'evil' Serbs and when the USA heloed the Kosovo Muslims win the Albanian Kosovo Muslims went on a killing spree against Serbs and Albanians they felt were collaborationists. Same thing happpened to Christians in Iraq when Saddam fell. I fear it may happen to Copts in Egypt and so on.

I am glad you find my perspectives fascinating.

94 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:15:42pm

re: #83 SanFranciscoZionist

I know they're asking it of the Falash Mura now, but my understanding was that the earlier groups, who had not become Christians, were not required to go through a Rabbanite conversion for citizenship, since they entered under the Law of Return. I know they were heavily encouraged to do so, but there was some push-back. Am I mistaken?

Fuck if I know, makes sense though. I'm sure their marriages were honored though and they were free not to starve to death in a land riddled with famine. It's the idea of force that Destro is pushing that's so ridiculous, steps necessary as a path to citizenship aren't force as long as residence itself isn't being threatened. As researchok pointed out in his #49 Switzerland is far more restrictive about citizenship and basically offers no conversion process at all.

95 Destro  Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:16:43pm

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

No, people like, say, Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef did not 'used to be European'.

The founders of modern Israel were in large part from Europe and European colonialism or a term like it was used by Ethiopian rights activists to describe their conversion efforts.

96 Bob Levin  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 3:27:23am

re: #95 Destro

I'll just add one thing.

But before I add it, I will say that from reading this thread it is clear to me that you like to engage in Jew-Baiting, and you're good at it.

The founders of modern Israel were in large part from Europe and European colonialism

The founders of modern Israel were survivors of concentration camps or pogroms. There is a sociological difference between being the inmate or the guard. I could get angry or offended by your comment, but that is the point of Jew-baiting, is it not?

It's too bad I'm not a betting person, because I believe I can anticipate where you will take this.

97 Destro  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 9:09:44am

re: #96 Bob Levin

I'll just add one thing.

But before I add it, I will say that from reading this thread it is clear to me that you like to engage in Jew-Baiting, and you're good at it.

The founders of modern Israel were survivors of concentration camps or pogroms. There is a sociological difference between being the inmate or the guard. I could get angry or offended by your comment, but that is the point of Jew-baiting, is it not?

It's too bad I'm not a betting person, because I believe I can anticipate where you will take this.

I have no clue what this Jew baiting is you mean you assume I just want to get Jews angry? You sound like those freeper kooks on a creationist vs evolution thread.

I say I support the state of Israel like a dozen times but that is seen as some sort of tactic by a delusional person like you. I say I support the creation of a Palestinian state out of the West Bank, and I am also called some sort of Muslim lover or some such by you and the others t hat comment on these which is the 2 state solution is everyone's official position for like 30 years now.

Some other dweeb asks me why I am not harping about the Muslim states around Israel when I have a multi year record of being against those states.

I belittle all laws and ideologies based on religion - all religions are fake and invented by men and there is no god and thus I will not respect any law based on a religious tenet. That includes Christianity as well as Islam and Hinduism, etc. But as long as no law is based on religion people should be free to practice it as consenting adults even if it ends up killing them as long as minors are not harmed. Etc. etc.

As for you, my long experience on Freerepublic and other right wing forums tells me that when someone can't support or hold up his argument they cry foul and run away.

I did not bait nor did I switch. I did not cite conspiracy theories and sourced everything I said if I could with sources from legit sites.

I don't like fairy tales and the Ethiopian rescue to Israel is a good thing but there are two aspects of it that I cite as being bad, one is the continued BS that they are a lost tribe of Israel, that is religious kookery just like Noah and the flood and the out of Egypt fairy tale. The next bad thing is that once the Ethiopians arrive they are coerced into giving up their Ethiopian traditions. That is horrible to me. I don't want people believing in superstitions but I would never coerce a group to change their beliefs to confirm with my own.

98 Bob Levin  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 12:04:24pm

So, you are shocked, shocked, that gambling is taking place here. That's your response. Would have won a bet. Oh well.

99 dragonath  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 1:49:56pm

re: #97 Destro

That "other dweeb" is one of the best posters on the site. Even if you don't agree with him on this one subject, the least you can do is show some respect.

100 Flavia  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 9:28:13pm

re: #3 researchok

What you left out:

A 2010 study by Behar et al. on the Genome-wide structure of Jews observed that the Beta Israel had similar levels of the Middle Eastern genetic clusters as the Semitic-speaking Tigreans and Amharas. Indeed, compared to the Cushitic-speaking Oromos, who are the largest ethnic group in Ethiopia, the Beta Israel had higher levels of Middle Eastern admixture.[58]

What he also left out is that no one but Jews get to decide who Jews are, & no one but Israel gets to decide who Israelis should be, & non-Jews do not get to decide what Jews believe. Israel is certainly the spiritual home of all the Jews - & these Ethiopians are Jews. I don't give a damn if their DNA shows they are all descended from Zoroastrian camels: they are Jews, & we are all one people.

101 researchok  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 1:44:37am

re: #97 Destro

Some other dweeb asks me why I am not harping about the Muslim states around Israel when I have a multi year record of being against those states.

Why don't you point out exactly where that occurred?

102 researchok  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 1:49:56am

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

re: #90 researchok

How do you feel about the Kuwaitis who booted out the Palestinians? How do you feel abut Assad's Alawites butchering Sunnis?

That was the question.

That's complicated because if the Sunni wins they will probably butcher the Alawites and Christians and secularist. This sort of thing has happened before. The USA backed the Kosovo Muslims against the 'evil' Serbs and when the USA heloed the Kosovo Muslims win the Albanian Kosovo Muslims went on a killing spree against Serbs and Albanians they felt were collaborationists. Same thing happpened to Christians in Iraq when Saddam fell. I fear it may happen to Copts in Egypt and so on.

Why is that 'complicated'?

To most people, the wholesale slaughter of people and and religious persecution are never acceptable behaviors.

Then again, it has become clear you are not like 'most people'.

You must know lots of secrets.

103 researchok  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 2:23:09am

re: #102 researchok

Sorry- that was mean for Destro's #93

104 Bob Levin  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 4:08:12am

re: #103 researchok

I can't recommend too strongly that we all memorize the movie Gentleman's Agreement. Right now you are at the Flume Inn demanding to know whether or not they are restricted. To paraphrase Sun Tzu, know what's up.

105 Destro  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 7:04:22am

re: #101 researchok

Why don't you point out exactly where that occurred?

Scroll up. re: #102 researchok

Why is that 'complicated'?

To most people, the wholesale slaughter of people and and religious persecution are never acceptable behaviors.

Then again, it has become clear you are not like 'most people'.

You must know lots of secrets.

OK, if we arm Sunni Muslims in Syria and they carry out retributive slaughters when they win can we hang some Yankee doodle assholes who supplied them with arms as war criminals and accessories to war crimes?

106 Destro  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 7:09:26am

re: #101 researchok

Why don't you point out exactly where that occurred?

Comment #49 Where you wrote "You don't seem to be bothered by some states in the region who won't tolerate Jews and 'Promise to finish what Hitler started'. Considering you claim a certain morality, I find that odd."

I didn't know I had to condemn those assholes in Iran for you before I could dare offer an opinion on Israel (which I can since I am a tax payer).

107 researchok  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 8:03:01am

re: #106 Destro

Comment #49 Where you wrote "You don't seem to be bothered by some states in the region who won't tolerate Jews and 'Promise to finish what Hitler started'. Considering you claim a certain morality, I find that odd."

I didn't know I had to condemn those assholes in Iran for you before I could dare offer an opinion on Israel (which I can since I am a tax payer).

r re: #106 Destro

Being a tax payer does not preclude one from being an idiot or bigot .

Further, you seem reserve the vast majority of your vitriol for Israelis. Simply stating 'Well i have condemned others in other places' or 'Let me say I find others equally bad or very bad' as id there were an equivalence is patently absurd- and even worse, your milquetoast 'MBF only comes out when you are presses and forced to respond.

108 researchok  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 8:06:55am

re: #105 Destro

The question was simple:

Why is that 'complicated'?

To most people, the wholesale slaughter of people and and religious persecution are never acceptable behaviors.

Your response:

OK, if we arm Sunni Muslims in Syria and they carry out retributive slaughters when they win can we hang some Yankee doodle assholes who supplied them with arms as war criminals and accessories to war crimes?

What does any of that have to do with condemning the wholesale slaughter of people, anywhere?

109 researchok  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 8:08:12am

re: #104 Bob Levin

New, more civilized looking packaging.

110 Bob Levin  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 9:35:20am

re: #109 researchok

I think he's been unwrapped. Old, used, over-used, product.

111 Destro  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 10:43:23am

re: #107 researchok

There is no vast vitriol against Israel you are just a biased advocate and can't stand any critique of your pet cause.

112 researchok  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 11:23:37am

re: #111 Destro

No, that is not the case. I have been critical of Israel on many occasion.

Simply making an assertion does not make it so.

In point of fact, the real bias here is far more more evident from where I sit- and as made clear, not only by me.

And why do once again fail to answer the question of #108?

113 Destro  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 11:57:34am

re: #108 researchok

The question was simple:

Why is that 'complicated'?

Your response:

What does any of that have to do with condemning the wholesale slaughter of people, anywhere?

Firts of all, what Syria is doing has zero to do with the thread. You are the one talkimg stuff out of topic. The thread is about Ethiopian Jews. I opointed out two things: That the Ethiopian Jews were based on DNA science natives to the Ethiopian region and thus not 'returning home' to Israel as if it is a lost tribe. I know that maybe hitting people where their theology is. Second point I made is that the Ethiopian Jews returning home then have the official policy of Israel tell them their version of Judaism is somehow not proper and that they have to go through theological indoctrinations/conversions once they get there.

That is a fine "homecoming" indeed.

Instead of dealing with these topics we wondered off into Iran and Syria.

114 researchok  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 11:58:25am

re: #113 Destro

What does any of that have to do with condemning the wholesale slaughter of people, anywhere?

115 researchok  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 11:59:19am

re: #113 Destro

Firts of all, what Syria is doing has zero to do with the thread. You are the one talkimg stuff out of topic. The thread is about Ethiopian Jews. I opointed out two things: That the Ethiopian Jews were based on DNA science natives to the Ethiopian region and thus not 'returning home' to Israel as if it is a lost tribe. I know that maybe hitting people where their theology is. Second point I made is that the Ethiopian Jews returning home then have the official policy of Israel tell them their version of Judaism is somehow not proper and that they have to go through theological indoctrinations/conversions once they get there.

That is a fine "homecoming" indeed.

Instead of dealing with these topics we wondered off into Iran and Syria.

Uh, more than one poster has repudiated your DNA 'analysis'.

Not to mention your 'analysis' of the Ethiopian Jews in Israel.

116 Destro  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 12:00:00pm

re: #112 researchok

No, that is not the case. I have been critical of Israel on many occasion.

Simply making an assertion does not make it so.

In point of fact, the real bias here is far more more evident from where I sit- and as made clear, not only by me.

And why do once again fail to answer the question of #108?

I do not hide that I am biased against a Likud run Israel. I find that Likud coalition to be an Israeli version of America's right wing kooks. I am biased against all right wing led govts everywhere.

117 researchok  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 12:01:20pm

re: #116 Destro

LOLOLOL

I see- now it's only the Likud you are biased against. Interesting how only now the word 'Likud' enters the conversation.

You are entertaining.

118 Destro  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 12:01:47pm

re: #115 researchok

re: #115 researchok

Uh, more than one poster has repudiated your DNA 'analysis'.

No they did not. There is no genetic results that prove the Ethiopian Jewish refugees are anything other than Ethiopians and the people around Ethiopia.

119 researchok  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 12:03:16pm

re: #118 Destro

Yews they have- the link to Arab and Jewish populations were made clear.

There are Jewish links to the Kurds.

But I'm sure an expert like you already knew that.

120 Destro  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 12:03:27pm

re: #117 researchok

LOLOLOL

I see- now it's only the Likud you are biased against.

You are entertaining.

Very much so. Why would I be against the Labour party or other secular leaning parties? Why would I be againts pro immigrat rights parties in Israel and anywhere else? Here again, yiou don't like the argument and try and smear.

121 researchok  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 12:05:39pm

re: #120 Destro

Right

All this and only now the word 'Likud' enters the conversation.

Think of how much different the conversation would have been had you mentioned politics early on.

I guess you didn't think of that.

122 Destro  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 12:14:44pm

re: #119 researchok

Yews they have- the link to Arab and Jewish populations were made clear.

There are Jewish links to the Kurds.

Scholars of Ethiopian history (James Quirin, Steve Kaplan, Kay Shelemay, and Harold Marcus) consider the Beta Israel to be a native group of Ethiopian Christians, who took on Biblical practices in the 14th to 16th centuries, and came to see themselves as Jews (almost like how Christian Protestant became more Old Testament oriented also). Marcus in his book says they originate to the persecutions of the sabbatarian movement of Abba Ewostatewos (c. 1273-1352), the remnants of which he believes grew into the Beta Israel of today (again just like some European Protestants changed the Sabbath back to Saturday and were persecuted). These views also accord with the DNA evidence on the Beta Israel as highlighted in these works:

Oh snap! Science!

Kaplan, Steve The Beta Israel (). New York University Press, re-issue edition, 1994. ISBN 0814746640

Marcus, Harold G. A History of Ethiopia. University of California Press, updated edition, 2002. ISBN 0520224795

Quirin, James. The Evolution of the Ethiopian Jews: A History of the Beta Israel (Falasha) to 1920. University of Pennsylvania Press, 1992. ISBN 0812231163

Shelemay, Kay Kaufman. Music, Ritual, and Falasha History. Michigan State University Press; 1989. ISBN 0870132741

123 Destro  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 12:28:58pm

re: #121 researchok

Right

All this and only now the word 'Likud' enters the conversation.

Think of how much different the conversation would have been had you mentioned politics early on.

I guess you didn't think of that.

In an earlier conversation from a few days ago I menationed this with forum member I think named Bob levin where I said so and mentioned how upset I am that Republicans and Likud leader Bibi Netanyahu (said in a recent Vanity Fair article to speak English with a GOP accent) have created some sort of political alliance and that on the American side it seems support of Israel by the GOP Tea Party types is not based so much on it being a western oriented democracy but rather linked to end times religous kookery by the Christian right and maybe to the Military Industrial Complex foriegn policy aspect (the so called neocon approach to world relations).

124 researchok  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 12:46:53pm

re: #122 Destro

LOLOL

I never stated the links were unadulterated- why should they be? Almost all DNA is adulterated (which means they can be Jews, notwithstanding your 'analysis' to the contrary.

And most curious, why are you so obsessed with Ethiopian DNA? Or is that obsession only about Ethiopian Jews?

And why do you care about whether or not Ethiopian Jews end up in Israel? It isn't as if Israel can't determine her own immigration policies.

As to the Likud remarks, let's just say I'm glad you finally thought of that in this thread.

Again, the question:

To most people, the wholesale slaughter of people and and religious persecution are never acceptable behaviors.

You replied the situation was 'complicated.'

What does any of that have to do with condemning the wholesale slaughter of people, anywhere?

125 Bob Levin  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 1:11:27pm

re: #123 Destro

Don't misquote our conversation.

126 researchok  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 1:12:14pm

re: #125 Bob Levin

Answer the question

Meant for Destro

127 researchok  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 1:33:32pm

re: #123 Destro

For the record. I wish you well.

And a speedy recovery.

We're done here.


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Comments are closed.

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