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1 Archangelus  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 9:24:52am

Updated link is up

2 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 9:25:14am

Our thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.

3 Destro  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 9:35:23am

Who did it? Terror group from the Albanian Kosovo Muslims or Bulgaria's Turkish Muslims? (never heard far right in Bulgaria do such things or their Muslims either for that matter).

4 Archangelus  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 9:40:53am

re: #3 Destro

Neither. This was almost certainly carried out by either the lovely 'foreign activities" division of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) or Hezbollah's nearly identical branch for terror attacks beyond Lebanese borders. Both have tried and done this kind of stuff in the past, and have been trying in the past few months (Iran as "retribution" for the assassination of its nuclear scientists, which it blames Israel for, and Hezbollah in its years old "revenge" attempts over the killing of terrorist mastermind Imad Mugniyeh, who they claim was killed by Israel).
Seems that they've been successful this time... :(

5 Bob Levin  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 9:43:47am

Dayan Hement.

6 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 9:44:46am

It gets worse. Reporting now that the bus was full of kids, teenagers belonging to a sports club.

7 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 9:45:26am

re: #3 Destro

Who did it? Terror group from the Albanian Kosovo Muslims or Bulgaria's Turkish Muslims? (never heard far right in Bulgaria do such things or their Muslims either for that matter).

Archangelus provides some information concerning two groups likely to have been involved, but the world is not lacking for groups that believe it is their role and destiny to target and kill Israelis, particularly those who are merely going about their daily lives and not in a position to defend themselves at the particular moment.

8 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 9:46:26am

re: #6 Learned Mother of Zion

It gets worse. Reporting now that the bus was full of kids, teenagers belonging to a sports club.

Terrorists targeting Israeli athletes. Where have I heard that before.


Sighs and tears.

9 Destro  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 9:47:23am

re: #4 Archangelus

Neither. This was almost certainly carried out by either the lovely 'foreign activities" division of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) or Hezbollah's nearly identical branch for terror attacks beyond Lebanese borders. Both have tried and done this kind of stuff in the past, and have been trying in the past few months (Iran as "retribution" for the assassination of its nuclear scientists, which it blames Israel for, and Hezbollah in its years old "revenge" attempts over the killing of terrorist mastermind Imad Mugniyeh, who they claim was killed by Israel).
Seems that they've been successful this time... :(

I know the region. I know that place exactly. It is almost impossible for foreigners to mingle there and carry out any clandestine activities alone and unnoticed.

10 Destro  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 9:51:07am

re: #7 sliv_the_eli

Archangelus provides some information concerning two groups likely to have been involved, but the world is not lacking for groups that believe it is their role and destiny to target and kill Israelis, particularly those who are merely going about their daily lives and not in a position to defend themselves at the particular moment.

Where does it state the two groups in Archangelus link? The Balkans have Islamist terrorists imported from all over by the USA and NATO to take on Serbia and they never left.

11 Archangelus  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 9:52:34am

re: #7 sliv_the_eli

re: #9 Destro

The difference is that both these two particular groups are not only the most capable and most experienced of them all in being able to pull of these kind of horrors (and may very well be the only ones among them that really can in this age), they have been identified as trying to pull off this kind of stuff just recently, and were trying to do it.
And Destro, from a professional perspective, i can tell you that you wouldn't need a native to carry this kind of thing off. And even if you did, both groups have a local person or two to help, often without them knowing what's the real thing behind the help they give.

12 Archangelus  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 9:56:11am

re: #10 Destro

It doesn't yet. But literally EVERYONE in the country (i'm here now) is 10000% sure about it. Every radio and TV news channel is saying it. And everyone on the street knows it.
What's more likely, that a group with no experience and literally ZERO success in doing this kind of stuff was behind it? Or the eveil monstrous bastards who've done it far too many times and are world experts in it?

13 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 9:56:28am

re: #11 Archangelus

Destro is not really trying to get at answers. See his post #10, which, based on reading many similar posts by him, pretty much sums up his worldview. Everything is caused by the evil U.S.
Case in point: To Destro the most likely explanation for today's horror is not that Israel has enemies who have the desire and capacity to pull off an attack such as this, but that it is blowback from the actions of the U.S. in the Balkans.

14 Destro  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 9:58:53am

re: #11 Archangelus

re: #9 Destro

The difference is that both these two particular groups are not only the most capable and most experienced of them all in being able to pull of these kind of horrors (and may very well be the only ones among them that really can in this age), they have been identified as trying to pull off this kind of stuff just recently, and were trying to do it.
And Destro, from a professional perspective, i can tell you that you wouldn't need a native to carry this kind of thing off. And even if you did, both groups have a local person or two to help, often without them knowing what's the real thing behind the help they give.

I apologize, I was looking at your link for the two suspected groups you named and not in your comment #4.

Iranians were involved in the arms smuggling to Kosovo Albanians and Bosnian Muslims.

America used Islamists to arm the Bosnian Muslims
The Srebrenica report reveals the Pentagon's role in a dirty war

By 1993 these groups, many supported by Iran and Saudi Arabia, were anxious to help Bosnian Muslims fighting in the former Yugoslavia and called in their debts with the Americans. Bill Clinton and the Pentagon were keen to be seen as creditworthy and repaid in the form of an Iran-Contra style operation - in flagrant violation of the UN security council arms embargo against all combatants in the former Yugoslavia.

The result was a vast secret conduit of weapons smuggling though Croatia. This was arranged by the clandestine agencies of the US, Turkey and Iran, together with a range of radical Islamist groups, including Afghan mojahedin and the pro-Iranian Hizbullah. Wiebes reveals that the British intelligence services obtained documents early on in the Bosnian war proving that Iran was making direct deliveries.

Arms purchased by Iran and Turkey with the financial backing of Saudi Arabia made their way by night from the Middle East. Initially aircraft from Iran Air were used, but as the volume increased they were joined by a mysterious fleet of black C-130 Hercules aircraft. The report stresses that the US was "very closely involved" in the airlift. Mojahedin fighters were also flown in, but they were reserved as shock troops for especially hazardous operations.

15 Archangelus  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:01:40am

Seriously??? You're pointing to a group that acted ages ago, and never against this particular group, over the people that have carried out literally HUNDREDS of terror attacks against this very specific target (Israelis) over the past decade? And who have been ACTIVELY TRYING over the past months?

16 Destro  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:02:53am

re: #13 sliv_the_eli

Destro is not really trying to get at answers. See his post #10, which, based on reading many similar posts by him, pretty much sums up his worldview. Everything is caused by the evil U.S.
Case in point: To Destro the most likely explanation for today's horror is not that Israel has enemies who have the desire and capacity to pull off an attack such as this, but that it is blowback from the actions of the U.S. in the Balkans.

Yes, I consider US foreign policy evil.

Also, if Iranians are involved (no evidence yet) they made allies with the Balkan Muslims thanks to Uncle 'Stupid' Sam in the 1990s thanks to the American effort against Serbia/Yugoslavia. You know just like the USA is now helping Islamists fight the Syrians. It is no small stretch that the Iranians called in some favors with the local Muslim led gangs to smuggle in bombs for this.

17 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:03:18am

re: #14 Destro

Let me see. As a result of the wars in the areas formerly part of Jugoslavia, Islamists with ties to Iran may now be living in the Balkans.

You do realize that supports, not contradicts, Archangelus' point that the IRGC and/or Hizb'allah are the two most likely subjects?

18 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:06:33am

re: #16 Destro

Yes, I consider US foreign policy evil.

Also, if Iranians are involved (no evidence yet) they made allies with the Balkan Muslims thanks to Uncle 'Stupid' Sam in the 1990s thanks to the American effort against Serbia/Yugoslavia. You know just like the USA is now helping Islamists fight the Syrians. It is no small stretch that the Iranians called in some favors with the local Muslim led gangs to smuggle in bombs for this.

Yes, because the regime in Iran has NO record of supporting Islamists who are in conflict with non-believers, and would not have provided assistance to Muslim groups in the Balkan wars of the 1990's EXCEPT as a DIRECT RESULT of U.S. foreign policy.

19 Bob Levin  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:08:50am

From the Jerusalem Post:

At least 20 injured after attack on Israeli tour bus at the Burgas Airport on 18th anniversary of Iran-sponsored bombing of Jewish center in Argentina; Bulgarian FM in touch with Liberman, headed to site.

20 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:10:01am

re: #19 Bob Levin

From the Jerusalem Post:

At least 20 injured after attack on Israeli tour bus at the Burgas Airport on 18th anniversary of Iran-sponsored bombing of Jewish center in Argentina; Bulgarian FM in touch with Liberman, headed to site.

Thank you for the historical perspective.

21 Destro  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:10:41am

re: #15 Archangelus

Seriously??? You're pointing to a group that acted ages ago, and never against this particular group, over the people that have carried out literally HUNDREDS of terror attacks against this very specific target (Israelis) over the past decade? And who have been ACTIVELY TRYING over the past months?

You mean if the Iranians are the ones who carried this out (we don't know yet) would they not get local help from Muslim gangs they once had dealings with? What did you think happened to Muslim armed groups when the war ended? They retired and opened up a restaurant? They went into crime and smuggling and could certainly have helped the Iranians in the logistics of this operation.

We don' know yet.

WE BUY BAG OF SEMTEX FROM TERRORISTS

Sunday Mirror (UK) - December 7, 2003

By Graham Johnson Investigations Editor

A TERRIFYING threat to Britain's security can today be revealed by the Sunday Mirror.

Our 13.5kg haul of Semtex - in 108 sticks - is one of the biggest ever seized from terrorists and could have potentially armed 30 suicide bombers.

We made our deal in Kosovo, a breeding ground for fanatics with al-Qaeda links.

Our contact was the deputy commander of the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA) Niam Behljulji, known as Hulji. The group were trained by Bin Laden's men.

Astonishingly, we met him under the noses of the British Army and UN forces - who remain as peacekeepers following Kosovo's bloody war with Serbia.

Hulji, is said to supply terrorists across Europe and has been accused of massacring Serbian women and children during the war.

He even posed grinning for a photograph, holding the severed head of one his victims.

Our first contact was with a Mafia arms dealer called Sinbad Sadkutz, who acts as a middleman for Hulji.

Sadkutz arranged a meeting with Hulji in a KLA-run cafe which was surrounded by armed guards and had been swept for "bugs".

Hulji said: "The plastics (Semtex) is the old type. No metal strips inside. It cannot be detected at airports. It is untraceable - no chemical markers."

22 Archangelus  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:10:45am

Let's see, a handful of stuff spanning over two decades vs. hundreds if not thousands over just the one. Hmmm, i wonder what's more likely..

re: #19 Bob Levin

Damnit, damnit, damnit, I knew there was something about the date...

23 Destro  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:11:50am

re: #17 sliv_the_eli

Let me see. As a result of the wars in the areas formerly part of Jugoslavia, Islamists with ties to Iran may now be living in the Balkans.

You do realize that supports, not contradicts, Archangelus' point that the IRGC and/or Hizb'allah are the two most likely subjects?

Why did you assume I contradicted him? I WAS SUPPORTING HIM. Do I have to type in all caps for you people?

24 Bob Levin  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:11:57am

re: #22 Archangelus

That, and it's during the three weeks.

25 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:14:23am

re: #23 Destro

Why did you assume I contradicted him? I WAS SUPPORTING HIM. Do I have to type in all caps for you people?

Silly me. I must have missed the subtlety by which, in blaming today' obscentiy on U.S. foreign policy, you were actually pointing to Iran as the most likely culprit.

26 Destro  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:14:27am

re: #18 sliv_the_eli

Yes, because the regime in Iran has NO record of supporting Islamists who are in conflict with non-believers, and would not have provided assistance to Muslim groups in the Balkan wars of the 1990's EXCEPT as a DIRECT RESULT of U.S. foreign policy.

Sure Iran would have helped the Muslims in the Balkans anyway but did that fucking American State Dept and CIA have to help them?

27 Destro  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:16:54am

re: #25 sliv_the_eli

Silly me. I must have missed the subtlety by which, in blaming today' obscentiy on U.S. foreign policy, you were actually pointing to Iran as the most likely culprit.

Yes, because the CIA working with Iran (the CIA could have shut down the Iranian smuggling but helped foster it) allowed the Iranian terrorists to build a wide network of links in the Balkans with men who are probably now part of Muslim mafia groups.

Imported terrorist operations logic tells me need local support to buy bomb components, etc.

28 Destro  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:18:00am

re: #15 Archangelus

How would Iranian terrorists operate in a foreign country without some local support?

29 Archangelus  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:19:16am

re: #28 Destro

Seeing how they've successfully done it literally dozens of times in the past, i'd say they know well enough how.


OK, i've gotta go and frankly i've had enough. Destro, you are desperately trying to lump one thing to something else that in all likelihood has very little to no connection whatsoever to what transpired here, and that even if it does, stems from matters that are totally unrelated to the point you are trying to shove across. In doing so, you are succeeding in doing just one thing, and that is to take away and distract from the fact that people have just been murdered.

30 Bob Levin  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:19:37am

More on The Three Weeks, from the Jerusalem Post:

Leading Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv dies at 102

Again, Dayan Haemet. If you're religious, this pattern is all too familiar.

31 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:21:00am

re: #26 Destro

Sure Iran would have helped the Muslims in the Balkans anyway but did that fucking American State Dept and CIA have to help them?

Possibly. Depends on what policy goals the U.S. government sought to achieve.

32 Bob Levin  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:21:31am

re: #29 Archangelus

That's what he does. And if you wait three seconds, he'll start calling me all sorts of names, since I too would point out the obvious.

33 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:24:27am

re: #27 Destro

Yes, because the CIA working with Iran (the CIA could have shut down the Iranian smuggling but helped foster it) allowed the Iranian terrorists to build a wide network of links in the Balkans with men who are probably now part of Muslim mafia groups.

Imported terrorist operations logic tells me need local support to buy bomb components, etc.

You really have a very unrealistic notion of the scope of the CIA's powers and abilities and those of other nations. Iran was alreadly involved in the Balkans and building a network and would have continued to do so regardless of what the CIA did or did not do. That Iran did so is a result of that nation pursuing its foreign policies, which in 33 years have not been dictated in any way by the desires of the U.S. government or its intelligence agencies.

34 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:25:39am

re: #28 Destro

How would Iranian terrorists operate in a foreign country without some local support?

This is the second time you have asked this question. Clearly you did not read Archangelus' post # 11.

35 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:28:13am

re: #29 Archangelus

Seeing how they've successfully done it literally dozens of times in the past, i'd say they know well enough how.


OK, i've gotta go and frankly i've had enough. Destro, you are desperately trying to lump one thing to something else that in all likelihood has very little to no connection whatsoever to what transpired here, and that even if it does, stems from matters that are totally unrelated to the point you are trying to shove across. In doing so, you are succeeding in doing just one thing, and that is to take away and distract from the fact that people have just been murdered.

Quoting your post to re-emphasize the point and bring an end to the sideshow.

36 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:48:21am

re: #9 Destro

Hizbullah and Iran have both indicated a willingness to hit Israel and its interests around the world. They did so in Buenos Aires 18 years ago to the day (85 dead, 100+ injured in that attack on a JCC), and have been working towards other attacks - a bunch thwarted in the past few months in places such as India, Thailand, and Cyprus among others.

It's not out of the realm that they recruited a local that blends in to carry out the attack, or someone with dual citizenship. Suicide bombing fits their profile; the target fits their profile; and the date suggests that Hizbullah/Iran was behind the attack.

37 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:48:35am

re: #30 Bob Levin

More on The Three Weeks, from the Jerusalem Post:

Leading Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv dies at 102

Again, Dayan Haemet. If you're religious, this pattern is all too familiar.

We have lost a great Torah giant, but when a 102-year-old person passes away it is not a tragedy or unexpected.

38 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:54:38am

The real question is will this start a war.

39 Bob Levin  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:57:00am

re: #37 Learned Mother of Zion

Besides the fact that we both agree that all deaths require some minor notes, I just said that during the three weeks, such patterns occur like clockwork--given our present state of being.

40 Bob Levin  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 10:59:52am

re: #38 Daniel Ballard

There's already a war. Will Israel blow up a bus of Iranians? No. Will Israel make a conventional attack on Iran? No. The computer war is doing just fine.

41 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 11:04:25am

re: #38 Daniel Ballard

A proxy war has been underway for some time. Iran's been targeted for cyberwarfare (Stuxnet, Flame, etc.) while Iran's been looking at soft target attacks - terrorism against civilians in tourist destinations where Israelis are known to visit with regularity, as well as prepping for renewed hostilities from Lebanon/Gaza.

42 Destro  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 11:42:06am

re: #33 sliv_the_eli

You really have a very unrealistic notion of the scope of the CIA's powers and abilities and those of other nations. Iran was alreadly involved in the Balkans and building a network and would have continued to do so regardless of what the CIA did or did not do. That Iran did so is a result of that nation pursuing its foreign policies, which in 33 years have not been dictated in any way by the desires of the U.S. government or its intelligence agencies.

Iran’s soft power reach in the Balkans

Posted on March 16, 2011

Since the early 90′s and the Yugoslavian civil wars, Iran tried to enter the Balkan region by establishing religious-educational organizations, NGO’s and by forming cells for intelligence gathering.
Due to the pressure either by NATO or the EU, as well as, the efforts by the countries involved, the Iranian influence has rather decreased, but it remains in the form of a “soft power” structure, closely related to the state apparatus of Teheran.

The following article will briefly highlight the most important organizations involved. Special acknowledgement is made by the writer to Dr. Athanassios Drougos, a senior counter-terrorism lecturer in Greek and NATO armed forces colleges, and an Advisor for RIMSE,for the research and analysis on the relevant data.

The Iranian “soft power” base as it was synoptically mentioned above is rather insufficient for any potential ambitions by Teheran to spread its influence in the Balkans. One has to note however, that a substantial Iranian infrastructure on a business level exists in Turkey and to a lesser degree in Greece, Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria and Romania.

43 Destro  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 11:56:21am

re: #36 lawhawk

Hizbullah and Iran have both indicated a willingness to hit Israel and its interests around the world. They did so in Buenos Aires 18 years ago to the day (85 dead, 100+ injured in that attack on a JCC), and have been working towards other attacks - a bunch thwarted in the past few months in places such as India, Thailand, and Cyprus among others.

It's not out of the realm that they recruited a local that blends in to carry out the attack, or someone with dual citizenship. Suicide bombing fits their profile; the target fits their profile; and the date suggests that Hizbullah/Iran was behind the attack.

That is exactly what I wrote. They did not like me also showing the USA in a bad light for working with Iran to help grow these local (hypothetical) connections. I don't care about hurting the feelings of Americans over America's foreign policy doings.

ISLAMIC TERROR AND THE BALKANS
MONDAY, 04 FEBRUARY 2008 18:17

Shaul Shay
(He has served in various senior capacities in Israel’s intelligence community. He is a research fellow at the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism at the Interdisciplinary Center in Herzliya and since November 2007, he is deputy head of the National Security Council of Israel. An expert on international and Fundamentalist Islamic terrorism, he has published studies and articles in Israel and abroad and written ten books on the subject)

As reported at the book, Islamic charities in the Balkan Peninsula from Saudi Arabia, Iran and other Arab states contributed hundreds of millions of dollars as well as military equipment and supplies to Jihadist organizations in the Balkans.

Today, as Shaul Shay points out the Balkans serve a forefront on European Soil for Islamic terror organizations (“Balkan alumni”), which exploit this area to promote their activities in Western Europe, Russia and other focal points worldwide.

44 Destro  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 12:00:13pm

re: #29 Archangelus

Seeing how they've successfully done it literally dozens of times in the past, i'd say they know well enough how.

OK, i've gotta go and frankly i've had enough. Destro, you are desperately trying to lump one thing to something else that in all likelihood has very little to no connection whatsoever to what transpired here, and that even if it does, stems from matters that are totally unrelated to the point you are trying to shove across. In doing so, you are succeeding in doing just one thing, and that is to take away and distract from the fact that people have just been murdered.

I don't forgive the American association with Iran in the Balkans. You may or may not know the Balkans but those links from the Balkan wars are still there in the form of mafia criminal groups (smugglers, etc). The thing is that the Balkans were seen as a place for these Islamic terrorists like the Iranians to do their business and not carry out acts of terror. You don't pee where you draw water, etc.

So it can be an indication that Iran has been weakened and they are willing to lose any ability to get money or smuggle goods through the Balkans to carry out this attack because they have failed elsewhere.

If so this may allow the local Balkan authorities to round up local groups.

45 Destro  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 12:16:09pm
46 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 2:25:20pm

re: #10 Destro

Where does it state the two groups in Archangelus link? The Balkans have Islamist terrorists imported from all over by the USA and NATO to take on Serbia and they never left.

Well, that is a new twist on me. The wingnuts claim that the Serbs had to go around massacring everyone to protect themselves from foreign jihadis who just showed up.

What have the Islamist terrorists in the Balkans been doing for a living over the past twenty years?

47 Sophia77  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 2:59:04pm

Just sick about this.

48 Destro  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 3:52:08pm

re: #46 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, that is a new twist on me. The wingnuts claim that the Serbs had to go around massacring everyone to protect themselves from foreign jihadis who just showed up.

What have the Islamist terrorists in the Balkans been doing for a living over the past twenty years?

From 2008:

ISLAMIC TERROR AND THE BALKANS
MONDAY, 04 FEBRUARY 2008 18:17

Shaul Shay
(He has served in various senior capacities in Israel’s intelligence community. He is a research fellow at the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism at the Interdisciplinary Center in Herzliya and since November 2007, he is deputy head of the National Security Council of Israel. An expert on international and Fundamentalist Islamic terrorism, he has published studies and articles in Israel and abroad and written ten books on the subject)

As reported at the book, Islamic charities in the Balkan Peninsula from Saudi Arabia, Iran and other Arab states contributed hundreds of millions of dollars as well as military equipment and supplies to Jihadist organizations in the Balkans.

Today, as Shaul Shay points out the Balkans serve a forefront on European Soil for Islamic terror organizations (“Balkan alumni”), which exploit this area to promote their activities in Western Europe, Russia and other focal points worldwide.

Also from today:

Israeli officials had previously said that Bulgaria, a popular holiday destination for Israeli tourists, was vulnerable to attack by Islamist militants who could infiltrate via Turkey.

49 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 5:09:57pm

My heart goes out to the families of the victims.

50 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 8:03:16pm

re: #48 Destro

From 2008:

Also from today:

Israeli officials had previously said that Bulgaria, a popular holiday destination for Israeli tourists, was vulnerable to attack by Islamist militants who could infiltrate via Turkey.

I'm not familiar with Shay's work, but the second hit on his name is this.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Now, he, or those unnamed troops, may be correct.

However, that basically means that Iran's got people on the ground in or around Bulgaria, which is not surprising. That's why they call it an 'international terror network'.

The arguments for Iran's involvement are fairly clear. What do you believe might have happened instead?

51 Destro  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 9:23:49pm

re: #50 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm not familiar with Shay's work, but the second hit on his name is this.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Now, he, or those unnamed troops, may be correct.

However, that basically means that Iran's got people on the ground in or around Bulgaria, which is not surprising. That's why they call it an 'international terror network'.

The arguments for Iran's involvement are fairly clear. What do you believe might have happened instead?

I did not say that Iran was not involved. I said that whoever was involved that did this they may have used local resources long cultivated from the Balkan wars that continue till this day in one way or another. The terrorists could bring explosives in Iranian diplomatic pouches but that has risks and they want to deny involvement so I assume they have to buy explosives locally? Also they need contacts to hide them and help the case the potential victims and crime scene.

Some people took offense that I also placed blame on a karmic level on the American CIA/State Dept that allied itself to these Islamist terrorists and in fact has been doing so on and off world wide since the 1980s. Americans don't want to hear they are complicit in deaths destructions around the world through policies that had unintended consequences.

52 Destro  Wed, Jul 18, 2012 9:35:09pm

re: #50 SanFranciscoZionist

"LAST UPDATED: 01/08/2012 23:00

A suspicious package found last week on a bus carrying Israeli tourists from Turkey to Bulgaria was the cause for Israel’s request to boost security over its citizens traveling in the country, according to reports in the Bulgarian press.

The Sofia News Agency Novinite quoted Dan Shenar, head of security at the Israeli Transportation Ministry, who confirmed he had requested the increased security. Bulgarian authorities have launched an investigation to determine what was inside the package and who placed it on the bus."

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Note the date of publication.

53 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Jul 19, 2012 3:43:44am

re: #51 Destro

I did not say that Iran was not involved. I said that whoever was involved that did this they may have used local resources long cultivated from the Balkan wars that continue till this day in one way or another. The terrorists could bring explosives in Iranian diplomatic pouches but that has risks and they want to deny involvement so I assume they have to buy explosives locally? Also they need contacts to hide them and help the case the potential victims and crime scene.

Some people took offense that I also placed blame on a karmic level on the American CIA/State Dept that allied itself to these Islamist terrorists and in fact has been doing so on and off world wide since the 1980s. Americans don't want to hear they are complicit in deaths destructions around the world through policies that had unintended consequences.

I can handle that. Back in the 80s, I opposed US assistance to the Afghan mujahadeen. This was an unpopular position, since I was at the time a serving officer of the US Army. My reasons included a distrust of the Afghan opposition and its hard-core Islamist supporters in such places as Saudi Arabia, and a barely thinkable suspicion that the Soviets might actually be in the right to some extent. Afghan modernists had allied themselves with the communist world because that seemed the best chance they had at the time for bringing their country into the modern world. It was a pact with the devil, of course, but if they had won the war and survived, they might still be there, their reforms might still be in effect, and their communists allies would still be long gone.
As it was, the communist Democratic Republic of Afghanistan actually out-lasted the Soviet Union itself by a few months. It could have survived longer by shedding the vestiges of Marxism and appealing to the west for aid, but such a thing was not possible. The west had long since allied itself with the forces who sought to destroy any form of modernism, communist or otherwise.
It should be no surprise that Muslim extremists turned their sights on the west as soon as the Soviets were out of Afghanistan. Some of them, the Iranian mullahs in particular, didn't wait that long. The Iran Hostage crisis started around the same time as large-scale Soviet intervention in Afghanistan, actually a few weeks earlier. There were some differences between the mullahs and the Afghan opposition, but there were also some striking similarities. I was amazed that almost noone could see those similarities.

We opposed the Afghan intervention just to kill some Russkies and cause the Soviets some headaches. In the process, we did indeed help unleash a wild and dangerous force, one that is still loose in the world. As always we are not the only actors on the world stage and we are not responsible for all the evil consequences that flow from great events. We are responsible for some of them, though, and some relatively simple historical perspective could prevent a lot of that.

54 Destro  Thu, Jul 19, 2012 5:37:15am

re: #53 Shiplord Kirel

I can handle that. Back in the 80s, I opposed US assistance to the Afghan mujahadeen. This was an unpopular position, since I was at the time a serving officer of the US Army. My reasons included a distrust of the Afghan opposition and its hard-core Islamist supporters in such places as Saudi Arabia, and a barely thinkable suspicion that the Soviets might actually be in the right to some extent. Afghan modernists had allied themselves with the communist world because that seemed the best chance they had at the time for bringing their country into the modern world. It was a pact with the devil, of course, but if they had won the war and survived, they might still be there, their reforms might still be in effect, and their communists allies would still be long gone.
As it was, the communist Democratic Republic of Afghanistan actually out-lasted the Soviet Union itself by a few months. It could have survived longer by shedding the vestiges of Marxism and appealing to the west for aid, but such a thing was not possible. The west had long since allied itself with the forces who sought to destroy any form of modernism, communist or otherwise.
It should be no surprise that Muslim extremists turned their sights on the west as soon as the Soviets were out of Afghanistan. Some of them, the Iranian mullahs in particular, didn't wait that long. The Iran Hostage crisis started around the same time as large-scale Soviet intervention in Afghanistan, actually a few weeks earlier. There were some differences between the mullahs and the Afghan opposition, but there were also some striking similarities. I was amazed that almost noone could see those similarities.

We opposed the Afghan intervention just to kill some Russkies and cause the Soviets some headaches. In the process, we did indeed help unleash a wild and dangerous force, one that is still loose in the world. As always we are not the only actors on the world stage and we are not responsible for all the evil consequences that flow from great events. We are responsible for some of them, though, and some relatively simple historical perspective could prevent a lot of that.

Ditto to all you said. One of the things that used to start flame wars with me on right wing forums like freerepublic was that I would make the assertion that the Afghanistanis would be better off under the communists if the USA did not help the jihadis. Women would have rights, education and the country would be more secular. The support to the Afghanis by the USA did not cause the USSR to collapse (the often made claim) and the USSR would have collapsed as it did anyway. At most that war was a distraction for the Soviets so the irony is that if the USA did nothing to help the anti-Soviet Afghanis the place would now be better off.

55 Destro  Thu, Jul 19, 2012 5:57:12am

re: #50 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm not familiar with Shay's work, but the second hit on his name is this.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Now, he, or those unnamed troops, may be correct.

However, that basically means that Iran's got people on the ground in or around Bulgaria, which is not surprising. That's why they call it an 'international terror network'.

The arguments for Iran's involvement are fairly clear. What do you believe might have happened instead?

By the way, I don't hate to say I told you so:

Interior Minister Tsvetan Tsvetanov said the bomber was believed to have been about 36 years old and had been in the country between four and seven days.

“We cannot exclude the possibility that he had logistical support on Bulgarian territory,” the minister said.

56 Destro  Thu, Jul 19, 2012 5:57:52am
57 Destro  Thu, Jul 19, 2012 5:58:18am

re: #29 Archangelus

Seeing how they've successfully done it literally dozens of times in the past, i'd say they know well enough how.

OK, i've gotta go and frankly i've had enough. Destro, you are desperately trying to lump one thing to something else that in all likelihood has very little to no connection whatsoever to what transpired here, and that even if it does, stems from matters that are totally unrelated to the point you are trying to shove across. In doing so, you are succeeding in doing just one thing, and that is to take away and distract from the fact that people have just been murdered.

By the way, I don't hate to say I told you so:

Interior Minister Tsvetan Tsvetanov said the bomber was believed to have been about 36 years old and had been in the country between four and seven days.

“We cannot exclude the possibility that he had logistical support on Bulgarian territory,” the minister said.

58 researchok  Thu, Jul 19, 2012 12:05:04pm

Just to clear Destro, you're the guy who used that nic on Free Republic, right?


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