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1 Buck  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 1:56:40pm

I think you move past the 1922 San Remo conference too quickly, where the Legal Title to Palestine was transferred from the Allied Powers … to the Jewish people.

Also, it seems to me that you find some moral equivalence here when you say "Arabs attacking Jews, and likewise the activities of Lehi, Hanganah, Irgun;"

You are making equal the genocidal anti semitic attacks with legitimate self defence. They are not "likewise".

2 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 2:07:00pm

re: #1 Buck

I've told you before that I'm not interested in your opinion of me (or my words). I'm not going to discuss this subject with you. Not now, not ever.

3 researchok  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 2:17:40pm

What is in the video are only partial truths. This in no way mitigates the mistakes made all around but it does help set the stage for what we see today.

Firstly, it bears remembering (as is often forgotten or deliberately overlooked) progressive Arabs wereinitially receptive of a Jewish/Zionist state as a neighbor.

“We Arabs, especially the educated among us, look with deepest sympathy on the Zionist movement.... We will wish the Jews a hearty welcome home.... We are working together for a reformed and revised Near East, and our two movements complement one another. The movement is national and not imperialistic. There is room in Syria for us both. Indeed, I think that neither can be a success without the other.”

A lot of decisions that were to impact the region were made predicated on the idea Jews would be welcomed. The progressive Pan Arabists saw Zionism as complimentary to their aims- free nations, productive and progressive. It was the leaders who saw Pan Arabism as a vehicle for their own power grab who understand anti Zionist sentiment would keep popular rage focused outward as opposed to on their blatant misdeeds as they stole power. It also must be remembered it was Arab Jews who initially supported and funded the Pan Arab movement.

Onward.

The idea Palestinians were forcibly evicteden masse in incorrect. They were encouraged to leave by their own leadership.

The Palestinians left their homes in 1947-48 for a variety of reasons. Thousands of wealthy Arabs left in anticipation of a war, thousands more responded to Arab leaders' calls to get out of the way of the advancing armies, a handful were expelled, but most simply fled to avoid being caught in the cross fire of a battle. Had the Arabs accepted the 1947 UN resolution, not a single Palestinian would have become a refugee and an independent Arab state would now exist beside Israel.

The beginning of the Arab exodus can be traced to the weeks immediately following the announcement of the UN partition resolution. The first to leave were roughly 30,000 wealthy Arabs who anticipated the upcoming war and fled to neighboring Arab countries to await its end. Less affluent Arabs from the mixed cities of Palestine moved to all-Arab towns to stay with relatives or friends.

All of those who left fully anticipated being able to return to their homes after an early Arab victory, as Palestinian nationalist Aref el-Aref explained in his history of the 1948 war:

The Arabs thought they would win in less than the twinkling of an eye and that it would take no more than a day or two from the time the Arab armies crossed the border until all the colonies were conquered and the enemy would throw down his arms and cast himself on their mercy.

By the end of January1948, the exodus was so alarming the Palestine Arab Higher Committee asked neighboring Arab countries to refuse visas to these refugees and to seal the borders against them.

Meanwhile, Jewish leaders urged the Arabs to remain in Palestine and become citizens of Israel. The Assembly of Palestine Jewry issued this appeal on October 2, 1947:

We will do everything in our power to maintain peace, and establish a cooperation gainful to both [Jews and Arabs]. It is now, here and now, from Jerusalem itself, that a call must go out to the Arab nations to join forces with Jewry and the destined Jewish State and work shoulder to shoulder for our common good, for the peace and progress of sovereign equals.

cont'd

4 researchok  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 2:20:35pm

cont'd

On November 30, the day after the UN partition vote, the Jewish Agency announced: “The main theme behind the spontaneous celebrations we are witnessing today is our community's desire to seek peace and its determination to achieve fruitful cooperation with the Arabs....“

Israel's Proclamation of Independence, issued May 14, 1948, also invited the Palestinians to remain in their homes and become equal citizens in the new state:

In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions....We extend our hand in peace and neighborliness to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.

More in a bit if I haven't put you to sleep.

To be clear, there were incidents of forced deportations but they were rare and isolated.

5 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 2:52:49pm

re: #3 researchok

Firstly, it bears remembering (as is often forgotten or deliberately overlooked) progressive Arabs wereinitially receptive of a Jewish/Zionist state as a neighbor.

That excerpt is ringing a bell, but...I think it had to do with one of the early Zionist groups, but I don't remember it being as high-profile as what you linked to. Thanks for that.

WRT to the second part about forcible evictions en masse, I haven't looked real deeply yet at that 1948 period covering war & independence, though it's one of the years that the Palestinians I knew drummed in my head like a mantra (1948, 1956, 1967, 1973). I'm basically trying to take it a little bit at a time as incidents are mentioned here and I follow up on them—you know, just try to understand the events surrounding that ONE event.

Of course, that doesn't always work. More often than not, I grab what looks like a reasonably short piece of thread and start pulling, only to find out that it's attached to a bazillion mile long spool that was hidden just out of sight. O_o

re: #4 researchok

More in a bit if I haven't put you to sleep.

Not at all, I appreciate the effort and industriously squirrel away all the bits & pieces.

To be clear, there were incidents of forced deportations but they were rare and isolated.

Noted.

6 Bob Levin  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 2:55:58pm

Fun with Wikipedia. Here's another link to Black September. The differences are interesting. Note the number of causalities in the side box. I only say this to contrast with King Hussein's quotes in the video. His actions are not consistent with his words. I also mention this because the article only cites Arafat's word regarding the casualties, but the side box has other citations. It's possible that examination of the footnotes will circle back to Arafat.

You can also see that there is very little sense that the PLO was perceived as little else than a terrorist organization. And oddly, Israel did not play a prominent role in this very complex set of events of Black September.

Here is the key, as far as I'm concerned, in the aftermath section:

Jordan: King Hussein of Jordan was maligned throughout the Arab world for having attacked the Palestinian resistance, and although he had now averted the physical threat to his throne, his legitimacy had suffered a crippling blow among Palestinian refugees (who made up the majority of the kingdom's inhabitants[citation needed] ) and on the regional Arab scene. Only a few years later, in 1974, the Arab League (and then the UN) would recognize the PLO as the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, denying Jordan's long-held claim to ownership of East Jerusalem and sovereignty over the Palestinian West Bank population.

And there you have it. You can almost bet that if King Hussein were allowed to maintain sovereignty over the West Bank, there would be a peace treaty between Israel and Jordan, with clear language regarding the West Bank. There is an excellent chance that Israelis would be able to live anywhere in the West Bank, and history would have recorded the constant battle between King Hussein and Arafat, in which Hussein would have prevailed.

Now, why would the Arab League and the UN grant representation to a terrorist organization, when there was already a country that could claim full, legitimate sovereignty over the West Bank? Why would they turn the West Bank into a no-man's land?

7 researchok  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 3:10:25pm

re: #5 CuriousLurker

You are right to note it is difficult to look at the events one at a time.

It is ironic when examining the Holocaust, the same problem occurs. We are taught to look at these many events as a singular event.

Neither the Arabs or Israelis were without sin (of omission or commission) but the narrative on each side does not allow for that reflection or examination.

Still, that truth does not mean literal equality.

The Arabs as a whole and to an even greater extent, the Palestinians have been victimized by their own oppressive leadership for decades. I suspect left to their own devices peace would have been a reality decades ago.

Human being want to live without or with as little conflict as possible..

Self serving and oppressive regimes need conflict, will escalate conflict or will initiate conflict so as to further their own needs and for self preservation. They care not a whit who gets hurt in the process.

Every Syrian today will attest to that truth.

Innocents all around are paying the price for their dysfunctional leaders.

8 researchok  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 3:12:21pm

re: #6 Bob Levin

I believe CL is looking beyond the numbers and political rhetoric.

While those things are part and parcel of an overall reality they do little to explain or understand how we got here.

9 Sophia77  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 3:12:57pm

I remember Black September. PLO attacked King Hussein, there were thousands of casualties; ultimately Hussein and his Bedouin troops prevailed.

PLO were exiled to Lebanon. This had a great impact on that state, indeed it could be considered a proximate cause of the Lebanese Civil War.

As for Hussein himself, I agree with Mr. Levin as to his reasonableness.

Historically, though, we need to review the creation of Jordan because that's highly significant, as was the British betrayal of the Hashemite dynasty in general.

The Zionists were indeed in close touch with Feysal, or Faisal, the scion of that dynasty who aided Lawrence of Arabia in his attacks on the Ottoman Empire. He met Chaim Weizmann himself:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

These were not insignificant people. They were highly important leaders.

Also study: Sykes-Picot Treaty and the creation of Saudi Arabia, in which the Hashemites were deposed from their ancestral rule in the Hijaz, and the Cairo Accords which essentially robbed Lebanon of her own sovereignty, and also Cold War impact on the modern Middle East.

Finally the impact of British and other Western antisemitism on the Middle East and the conflicts between various Palestinian Arab clans, with the radical al Huseyni or Husseini clan ultimately prevailing during the 1930's "Arab Revolt," that was antiZionist, antisemitic and ultimately led to a coalition with Hitler.

10 Bob Levin  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 3:16:44pm

re: #8 researchok

I think Jordan's loss of sovereignty is extremely significant. Also, the page that I linked to is really the gist of what I had to say. The rest of my comment was another footnote to the link.

11 Sophia77  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 3:17:39pm

I suggest reading from the links on this page:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

And also, read from the works of Matthais Kuntzel, a German scholar who is an expert on the impact of Nazism on the Middle East, he is also knowledgeable about the history of the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is an offshoot.

12 Bob Levin  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 3:18:40pm

re: #8 researchok

She also asked about the accuracy of the video. Hussein's words in the video did not reflect his actions.

Nor will I take Arafat's word on the number of casualties when I don't take his word on anything else.

More footnotes.

13 Sophia77  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 3:19:16pm

Also there are letters between Faisal and Frankfurter:

[Link: www.eretzyisroel.org...]

14 Bob Levin  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 3:20:03pm

re: #11 Sophia77

read from the works of Matthais Kuntzel,

Telos Press. Had to get the plug in there.

15 researchok  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 3:22:54pm

re: #12 Bob Levin

It is ironic that Arafat was directly responsible for more deaths of Arabs than anyone else in modern times.

16 Sophia77  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 3:26:01pm

One of the things that early Zionists misunderstood or underestimated, according the notes of a rabbi I transcribed, who attended Cooper Union in the 1930's, was the impact and seriousness of Arab nationalism.

This was an obstacle to the creation of Israel and her continuing existence but also, to any outside interference in "The Arab World," despite the obvious fact that much of the Arab world had been under Turkish and other colonial control for hundreds of years prior to the British destruction of the Ottoman Empire.

And, Arab unity as early as the military campaigns under Lawrence was difficult to maintain as the culture was and to a degree remains clan and tribal and religious rather than national. We see this today in the stresses within Iraq, within Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, and also within the Palestinian Arab community and Jordan, neither of which are monolithic and both of which contain elements of many ethnic and religious groups which don't all share the same political outlook.

Similarly, the impact of class is enormous and that also influences political outlook and history.

Probably, the players in the Arab/Israeli conflict - those most impacted by it - Israeli and Palestinian Arab people - may have had the least to do with the creation of their problems, which can be traced back many centuries.

Ergo it's really pointless to be mad at them.

17 Bob Levin  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 3:27:22pm

re: #15 researchok

Tyrants, deaths? No irony, just sadness.

18 Sophia77  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 3:28:31pm

Arafat is possibly a cousin and definitely, was mentored by al Husseini himself, and he was supported by the Soviet Union which helped create and fund the PLO - this was one of the Cold War aspects of the conflicts in the Middle East. They were to some degree, including the Afghan wars, an element of the conflict between the NATO allies and the Soviet Union.

Struggles over resources, but also key waterways like the Suez Canal and land routes, like the Silk Road, all played out in the form of proxy wars in which the peoples of the Middle East/Central Asia and North Africa have been the victims.

19 Bob Levin  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 3:32:50pm

re: #16 Sophia77

Let's say that you are correct about the social structures--after all, we are talking about life in a desert. I think you've got some more ergo-s to go.

20 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 3:59:53pm

re: #6 Bob Levin

Thanks for pointing out that second article as well as the differences. I've been using Wikipedia for general info, the following footnotes and Googling around for other resources, preferably first-hand accounts by people that were either involved or present as observers. Objective observers would be great, but I figure they would be hard to come by given the different stakes the various parties had in the outcome being to their advantage.

Now, why would the Arab League and the UN grant representation to a terrorist organization, when there was already a country that could claim full, legitimate sovereignty over the West Bank? Why would they turn the West Bank into a no-man's land?

I have no idea. Do you have a hypothesis?

21 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 4:20:25pm

re: #8 researchok

I believe CL is looking beyond the numbers and political rhetoric.

While those things are part and parcel of an overall reality they do little to explain or understand how we got here.

This. While I find the former somewhat interesting and necessary to understand certain aspects of the history of it all, the latter is what I really want to wrap my mind around. I could pick a side and accept their narrative as of events as 100% gospel truth. Okay, great, but guess what? It won't stop the fighting or bring back the dead on either side.

22 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 4:25:01pm

re: #18 Sophia77

Thanks for all the info. I'll definitely take a look at the links & the book.

23 Bob Levin  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 4:29:15pm

re: #20 CuriousLurker

I have no idea. Do you have a hypothesis?

I do. But I want to go second. ;-)

24 Buck  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 4:32:04pm

re: #2 CuriousLurker

I've told you before that I'm not interested in your opinion of me (or my words). I'm not going to discuss this subject with you. Not now, not ever.

Ironic.

25 Bob Levin  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 4:40:00pm

re: #21 CuriousLurker

It won't stop the fighting or bring back the dead on either side.

That's where religion comes in. You know we haven't been talking about religion for this thread, right? And I can't answer your questions, which center around--what is the relationship between Islam and peace?

I ask the same questions, parallel, every day--what is the relationship between Judaism and peace, and how do we get from being stuck at point A to point B?

Thus far, I'm pretty convinced that the big, important leaders who make the news are not in this game. But I'm still exploring. I might end up writing a book.

26 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 5:10:37pm

CL this is some fine work. I just learned quite a bit and I had done some significant reading already. Thank you for the effort and outreach. It retweeted it, and this is one of those Pages I'm surprised is not in the dozens of retweets.

27 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 6:33:03pm

re: #25 Bob Levin

That's where religion comes in. You know we haven't been talking about religion for this thread, right? And I can't answer your questions, which center around--what is the relationship between Islam and peace?

I ask the same questions, parallel, every day--what is the relationship between Judaism and peace, and how do we get from being stuck at point A to point B?

Thus far, I'm pretty convinced that the big, important leaders who make the news are not in this game. But I'm still exploring. I might end up writing a book.

Y'know, right after posting it I realized that I hadn't mentioned religion even once. Apart from it having the ability to inflame passions (which some have used to their advantage), it seems almost like a footnote. I think you're right about the leaders.

28 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 6:37:06pm

re: #26 Daniel Ballard

CL this is some fine work. I just learned quite a bit and I had done some significant reading already. Thank you for the effort and outreach. It retweeted it, and this is one of those Pages I'm surprised is not in the dozens of retweets.

Thanks, I'm glad you learned something too! I wasn't even going to tweet it myself since it was more of a personal Page, but then I figured, eh, what the heck, go ahead and put it out there. ;)

29 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 6:50:34pm

It's a pity that there are those who will treat you as an opponent even when you approach things candidly and are clearly making an effort to understand.

30 researchok  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 7:44:01pm

re: #29 CuriousLurker

It has been my experience when the narrative becomes more important than the facts, there is less of a chance of any kind of resolution.

I'll comment more tomorrow on the post 67 reality.

31 Destro  Tue, Jul 24, 2012 8:30:06pm

The problem is that the Arabs and Israelis is they want to 'correct' the errors of the past in what is now Israel and Palestine and correct what they see as an injustice. That is a dead end. The best thing to do for Arabs and Israelis is to accept the current facts on the ground with some tweaking (West Bank Israeli settlements dismantled and Palestinians making a state out of the West Bank and Gaza). There can even be innovative ways to deal with Jerusalem - like a shared capital rather than a split capital.

We can innovate and compensate for the elimination of the Palestinians 'right of return' by returning back to the Arab deed holder his land and make him a landlord collecting rent from a distance from Israelis living on Arab privately owned land and thus giving Palestinians in the West Bank a vested interest in Israel's continued health and vitality by providing them an income from a fair source (their land) without depriving Israelis of their homes.

We can make Palestine a nation like Japan and Costa Rica which have outlawd in their constitutions the ability to declare war. Have Palestine sign a treaty stating it will have no standing army and join no military alliance to ease fears Palestine will wage war on Israel.

Palestinians need to stop trying to correct the past injustices which prevents healing and "turn the other cheek" as a famous Jewish rabbi once said.

32 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 7:41:44am

FYI: The National Archives

This seems to be the mother lode as far as documents providing first-hand info goes. The research section has several tools you can use to locate different types of info, but the most comprehensive one seems to be the Online Public Access search. For example, entering "Israel Syria Egypt" (without the quotes) brings up these results which you can then refine using various filters and sort.

For more specific results, you can go to the Access to Archival Databases (AAD) search. Entering the same terms as above yields a shorter list, however you can then simply click on "view records" for "Electronic Telegrams, 1/1/1973 - 12/31/1973" to see & sort all 428 results for that year

33 Flavia  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 10:57:31am

re: #2 CuriousLurker

I think that you actually are more than even-handed & blame the Jews far less than most people do - if that means anything to you.

34 Flavia  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 11:00:01am

re: #4 researchok

cont'd

More in a bit if I haven't put you to sleep.

To be clear, there were incidents of forced deportations but they were rare and isolated.

Yes. Totally. Absolutely. The fact that they happened, and were WRONG should never be forgotten, but they have been blown out of proportion - and sometimes by people trying to be "even-handed" when equivalencies aren't actually possible.

35 Flavia  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 11:03:22am

re: #17 Bob Levin

Tyrants, deaths? No irony, just sadness.

Well, "ironic" in that he claims to be their champion, & says JOOOZ are doing all the killing. Thus making the deaths all the MORE sad.

36 Bob Levin  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 1:09:29pm

re: #35 Flavia

Ah. Philosophy. Are habitual liars subject to the laws of irony? Or are they just caught in another lie?

37 Flavia  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:55:07pm

re: #36 Bob Levin

Ah. Philosophy. Are habitual liars subject to the laws of irony? Or are they just caught in another lie?

Um... yes?

38 Flavia  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 2:55:51pm

re: #29 CuriousLurker

Ooo, I almost forgot - Ramadan Mubarak!!

39 Bob Levin  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:13:21pm

re: #37 Flavia

That's easy for you to say. ;-)

40 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jul 25, 2012 3:42:53pm

re: #38 Flavia

Ooo, I almost forgot - Ramadan Mubarak!!

Thank you! ;)


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