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1 EiMitch  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:13:43pm

First of all, you're using all-caps for the headline like this is a brand new revelation to be shouted from the mountaintop? Anyone in their twenties who isn't a libertarian already knows this.

Second, these "excerpts" are pretty long. If you want people to check the link, give them enough to get them interested. Don't post so much of it that you might as well post it all.

And third, this is mostly an emotionally charged rant. Its less about making a point, and more about grinding an axe and sticking a middle-finger to 'em. But thats just your thing, isn't it?

I'm not saying I'm above that. I'm just saying that I wouldn't spend that much time obsessing over it. A well thought-out essay full of evidence might be worth writing that much. A garden variety rage isn't.

Oh, and if the point was to convince libertarians to stop being libertarians, it won't work. I should know. If the last decade plus wasn't enough to disillusion them like it did for me, nothing will. They crank-out plenty of their own emotionally charged bs. This won't impress them.

2 Destro  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:22:46pm
Oh, and if the point was to convince libertarians to stop being libertarians, it won't work. I should know. If the last decade plus wasn't enough to disillusion them like it did for me, nothing will. They crank-out plenty of their own emotionally charged bs. This won't impress them.?

In the words of Mark Ames:

Anytime anyone says anything libertarian, spit on them. Libertarians are by definition enemies of the state: they are against promoting American citizens’ general welfare and against policies that create a perfect union. Like Communists before them, they are actively subverting the Constitution and the American Dream, and replacing it with a Kleptocratic Nightmare.

3 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:55:14pm

re: #2 Destro

In the words of Mark Ames:

Downding for praising anyone who suggests spitting on someone else just for speaking an idea he doesn't like. Those words are those of a left-wing extremist hater.

4 Destro  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 6:57:38pm

re: #3 Dark_Falcon

Downding for praising anyone who suggests spitting on someone else just for speaking an idea he doesn't like. Those words are those of a left-wing extremist hater.

I am honest about what I hate. You losers on the right have done enough damage since Reagan came along. You need to go back in the holes you came out of.

5 EiMitch  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 8:06:39pm

Here's something I forgot to mention before: those right-wing "losers" feed on such hatred to an extent. And even the ones that don't simply get defensive instead, making it harder to dissuade them from their extremist bs.

But this isn't news. Hating for the sake of hate is only good for making immature fools feel better. For proof, just look at any flame war on any unmoderated site.

Not to mention, hate will cloud your judgement. It can make you harshly judgmental, label people over frivolous things, and jump to extreme conclusions about one's intentions. Such as, to pick a not random example, mistaking constructive criticism for opposition and nit-picking for warmongering.

For the record, Mark Ames is not a role model. Quit idolizing him already.

6 Romantic Heretic  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:07:37pm

Libertarianism is simply a product rebranding. It's anarchy in a nice, shiny new package. There were two reasons for this.

First, it cuts off history. Since libertarianism is, thanks to the new name, not anarchy it cannot be criticized for something it is, apparently, not. Anarchy doesn't have a good rep and rebranding allowed that weight to be shed.

Second, it sets the debate. By using a product name with liberty as the root word it gives the appearance that any one arguing against libertarianism is arguing against liberty itself.

A clever trick on the anarchist's part. Dishonest, but clever.

7 Destro  Wed, Aug 1, 2012 9:50:02pm

re: #6 Romantic Heretic

Libertarianism is simply a product rebranding. It's anarchy in a nice, shiny new package. There were two reasons for this.

First, it cuts off history. Since libertarianism is, thanks to the new name, not anarchy it cannot be criticized for something it is, apparently, not. Anarchy doesn't have a good rep and rebranding allowed that weight to be shed.

Second, it sets the debate. By using a product name with liberty as the root word it gives the appearance that any one arguing against libertarianism is arguing against liberty itself.

A clever trick on the anarchist's part. Dishonest, but clever.

Yes and no. Yes, for over 150 years libertarian was another way to say anarchist all over the world except the USA but the American version of libertarian has no relation to the original world wide meaning of the term.

Here is an article to explain it:

150 years of Libertarian

This year, 2008, marks the 150th anniversary of the use of the word “libertarian” by anarchists.

As is well known, anarchists use the terms “libertarian”, “libertarian socialist” and “libertarian communist” as equivalent to “anarchist” and, similarly, “libertarian socialism” or “libertarian communism” as an alternative for “anarchism.” This is perfectly understandable, as the anarchist goal is freedom, liberty, and the ending of all hierarchical and authoritarian institutions and social relations.

Unfortunately, in the United States the term “libertarian” has become, since the 1970s, associated with the right-wing, i.e., supporters of “free-market” capitalism. That defenders of the hierarchy associated with private property seek to associate the term “libertarian” for their authoritarian system is both unfortunate and somewhat unbelievable to any genuine libertarian. Equally unfortunately, thanks to the power of money and the relative small size of the anarchist movement in America, this appropriation of the term has become, to a large extent, the default meaning there. Somewhat ironically, this results in some right-wing “libertarians” complaining that we genuine libertarians have “stolen” their name in order to associate our socialist ideas with it! .... So, in summary, considered in terms of our political, social and economics ideas it is unsurprising that anarchists have been using the term “libertarian” for 150 years. Regardless of the attempts by others ignorant of both the history of that term and the reality of capitalism to appropriate it for their hierarchical and authoritarian ideology, we will continue to do so.

So if you are an American libertarian and go overseas to Europe and you are asked what your political affiliation is be careful how you answer since it has a different meaning there.

8 Destro  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 5:32:46am

re: #5 EiMitch

Here's something I forgot to mention before: those right-wing "losers" feed on such hatred to an extent. And even the ones that don't simply get defensive instead, making it harder to dissuade them from their extremist bs.

But this isn't news. Hating for the sake of hate is only good for making immature fools feel better. For proof, just look at any flame war on any unmoderated site.

Not to mention, hate will cloud your judgement. It can make you harshly judgmental, label people over frivolous things, and jump to extreme conclusions about one's intentions. Such as, to pick a not random example, mistaking constructive criticism for opposition and nit-picking for warmongering.

For the record, Mark Ames is not a role model. Quit idolizing him already.

Listen, I appreciate you going all Obi Wan on this but there is nothing wrong with hatred of things that should be hated. It is time that the right wing losers are treated as such. They are the flat earth brigade and need to be treated as such. Everything they believe in is a lie and proven false. Creationism? Global Warming denial? Reaganomics? All proven falsehoods that we still have to contend with.

I mean for how long must we endure variations of the 'trickle down' theory of economics disproven in the first Reagan term? How long after the collapse of the deregulated financial sector must we endure calls for further deregulation by the right wing? That tax cuts to millionaires and above will produce job growth????

They have had plenty of time to change their ideology. I did. I saw the ideology of the right that I had embraced fail. I changed accordingly.

9 EiMitch  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 1:49:17pm

re: #8 Destro

They have had plenty of time to change their ideology. I did. I saw the ideology of the right that I had embraced fail. I changed accordingly.

But you didn't drop their stupid rage politicking. And your rationalizations are pretty thin.

You don't care that you're fulfilling their "smug, mean-spirited liberal" stereotype. You don't care that you've accused at least one innocent nit-picker of warmongering and gave them the middle-finger. You don't care about the collateral damage of your "spit on them" strategy, nor that said strategy is entirely counter-productive. So long as you achieve rage-gasm, nothing else matters.

Its not like you're rallying people to take action. You're just talking like some eight-year-old who figured out how to turn-off the adult-content filter on his daddy's pc a.k.a. the more polite Breitbart commentators. **zing!**

I know I've said that the if last decade plus doesn't make the libertarians doubt their bs ideology, nothing will. But that doesn't include the younger, more naive dupes within them. You're basically giving-up on them simply because they were born later and haven't yet seen all that you've seen.

Besides, if not figuring it out sooner than you makes someone a closed-minded evil moron, what does that make you? The slow-witted jerk with a guilty conscience who just barely made the deadline?

So drop the righteous indignation bs. You're just another self-hater. Get over it! Then you'll be able to join the more level-headed people trying to do something useful to fight the wingnuts.

Or better yet, don't listen to me at all. That way, you can compete with the Breitbart crowd for the gold medal in the internet special olympics. U S A! U S... Wait! Wtf am I saying?!

10 Destro  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 2:03:03pm

re: #9 EiMitch

You don't care that you're fulfilling their "smug, mean-spirited liberal" stereotype.

Because I am not a liberal.

And the reason I am not a liberal is that they come off like you trying to appease the wingnut right wing and then looking puzzled when they go off and burn witches or some such lunacy.

11 EiMitch  Thu, Aug 2, 2012 3:22:30pm

re: #10 Destro

I tell you that hating on a-holes is pointless and counterproductive. And you rationalize that I'm just appeasing the a-holes. Whatever helps you sleep at night, I suppose.

Attitude-wise, you're ahelluvalotmore like the wingnuts than you care to admit. You went from one closed-minded madness to another. I guess the reason I stuck around so long was because you reminded me too much of myself.

I know first-hand that your anger is only going to screw you in the end. If I can't talk you out of it, then at least make sure you have plenty of lube and painkillers. I guarantee you'll need 'em.

12 Destro  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 9:19:44am

re: #11 EiMitch

I tell you that hating on a-holes is pointless and counterproductive. And you rationalize that I'm just appeasing the a-holes. Whatever helps you sleep at night, I suppose.

Attitude-wise, you're ahelluvalotmore like the wingnuts than you care to admit. You went from one closed-minded madness to another. I guess the reason I stuck around so long was because you reminded me too much of myself.

I know first-hand that your anger is only going to screw you in the end. If I can't talk you out of it, then at least make sure you have plenty of lube and painkillers. I guarantee you'll need 'em.

Maybe attitude wise, but what I am intolerant of or hate is stuff I can back with real world facts not ideological BS.

If someone is arguing 2+2 = 5 I can't accept that as reality and I can't be polite about it much. I mean at what point do I have to be respectful of creationists? People who want to ban a woman's right to an abortion? crypto-racists?

Let me know how you stand up to them? How do you get them to change their minds?

I guess the difference is you seem to think these groups are reachable? I think the are a lost cause and incapabale of reasoning.


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