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1 Destro  Fri, Aug 3, 2012 11:51:52pm

Everything this article said is bullshit.

For example, Gore Vidal said that Timothy McVeigh was part of a larger network of right wingers.

It's in Vanity Fair, not exactly a fringe publication.

[Link: www.vanityfair.com...]

Americans were fed the story of Timothy McVeigh’s trial and execution as a simple, unquestionable narrative: he was guilty, he was evil, and he acted largely alone. Gore Vidal’s 1998 Vanity Fair essay on the erosion of the U.S. Bill of Rights caused McVeigh to begin a three-year correspondence with Vidal, prompting an examination of certain evidence that points to darker truths—a conspiracy willfully ignored by F.B.I. investigators, and a possible cover-up by a government waging a secret war on the liberty of its citizens.

Gore Vidal will be missed. America is turned over to the musings of Sean Hannitys and Rush and it is a well deserved and self inflicted fate.

2 Destro  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 12:04:16am
Gore Vidal, we should recall, described himself as a conservative

Mental midgetry on display.

Gore ws being cheeky in that he was saying his views were closest to being those of the libertine Founding Fathers. In other words, he was the true conservative while the Christian right wing in America who call themselves conservatives are really the radicals.

3 EiMitch  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 12:21:16am

Gore Vidal had his problems. And I thought that article was an interesting counterpoint. I wasn't vouching for its accuracy. I just thought it was inters... Wait, I already said that.

I didn't think this would actually get featured. Weird, but cool.

re: #1 Destro

You picked McVeigh and the "conservative" parts to comment on. But after the "going Godwim" part, I kinda expected something about that. Or something about the conspiracy theories. Not a word on that?

4 researchok  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 12:41:20am

re: #1 Destro

re: #2 Destro

More of your bullshit (which is adding up quite nicely).

From Common Dreams:

Vidal Praises Oklahoma Bomber for Heroic Aims

The writer Gore Vidal yesterday compared the executed Oklahoma bomber Timothy McVeigh to Paul Revere, the hero of American independence.
In a withering address at the Edinburgh book festival, the liberal novelist and elder statesman of the Gore political dynasty said the former soldier decorated for bravery in the Gulf war wanted to send out a warning that the government had been bought by corporate America and "its secret police, the FBI, were out of control. What McVeigh was saying was, 'The Feds are coming, the Feds are coming'. "

In his strongest identification yet with the man who confessed to blowing up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City in 1995, killing 168 people in retaliation for the FBI's "slaughter at Waco", Vidal described him as a "Kipling hero" with an "overdeveloped sense of justice" who did what he did because he was inflamed by the massacre, the FBI's subsequent cover-up, and the way it "had shredded the bill of rights and the constitution. He was the man who would be king."

Vidal, whom McVeigh asked to witness his execution in June after the pair corresponded for three years, insisted McVeigh did not actually carry out the bombing, and hinted he was now close to revealing the names of those who did.

"I am about to drop another shoe. I have been working with a researcher who knows at least five of the people involved in the making of the bomb and its detonation. It may well be that McVeigh did not do it. In fact, I am sure he didn't do it. But when he found out he was going to be the patsy, he did something psychologically very strange. He decided to grab all credit for it himself, because he had no fear of death."

Vidal maintained this was because "McVeigh saw himself as John Brown of Kansas", the anti-slavery campaigner who was executed after leading a raid into the south which sparked the American civil war.

Vidal alleged that the FBI not only knew about the plot, it was involved in it. Having infiltrated the rightwing militia group that planned it, it did nothing because it wanted to pressure President Clinton into pushing through draconian anti-terrorist legislation he was refusing to sign. "Within a week of the bombing, Clinton signed it for 'the protection of the state and of persons', using the exact language that Adolf Hitler used after the Reichstag fire of 1933."

America was in the grip of what he called "a revolutionary situation" because wealth had become concentrated in the hands of only 1% of the population. "The truth is that 80% are not doing well, and many of those are farmers out in the mid-west who have been driven off their land by big business. They are the backbone of the militia movement. Many of them are as crazed as you can find. But they number over 4m, 300,000 of which are active."

Vidal revealed that having had his last meal of mint ice-cream with chocolate sauce, McVeigh spent his last hours watching the Coen Brothers' film Fargo on a black and white TV. "It's a great film but bloody, a body is shredded and suchlike, and not quite what he wanted to see, poor fellow."

He saved his greatest venom for Janet Reno, the attorney general during the 52-day Waco siege, for "persecuting a perfectly harmless bunch of religious nuts" and for presiding over the "lies and cover-up" that followed it. "Her mother was a very famous alligator wrestler in Florida, a family profession she herself should have pursued.

Then there is the 9/11 truther thing.

I can understand your antipathy to Americans, though. Really.

Know what I mean?

5 Destro  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 9:08:24am

re: #4 researchok

A third party's interpretation of what Vidal said. Vidal is talking about McVeigh's view of himself and his motivations and that he may have been a patsy for a right wing group terrorist group where the FBI had informants in.

So you can understand my antipathy to stupid Americans though who freak out at nuances.

The primary source of Vidal's thesis is in the Vanity Fair article. You know Vanity Fair is the hotbed of outlandish anti-American conspiracy theories, right? Link above. I suggest you read slowly.

6 Destro  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 9:12:29am

re: #3 EiMitch

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I'm a conspiracy analyst. Everything the Bushites touch is screwed up. They could never have pulled off 9/11, even if they wanted to. Even if they longed to. They could step aside, though, or just go out to lunch while these terrible things were happening to the nation. I believe that of them

Gore Vidal

7 EiMitch  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 12:46:18pm

re: #6 Destro

Have you forgotten whether you were talking to me or researchok? ... Okay, I'll bite.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I'm a conspiracy analyst.

And intelligent design is not biblical creationism. Ugh! This is a lame spin.

They could never have pulled off 9/11, even if they wanted to. Even if they longed to. They could step aside, though, or just go out to lunch while these terrible things were happening to the nation. I believe that of them

So he's not a "government made it happen" troofer, just a "government let it happen" troofer. Therefore, not a conspiracy theorist. Yeah, wtf-ever.

Your attempts to spin Vidal as taken out of context are hilarious. Gore Vidal was indeed espousing a conspiracy theory, while whining about how the word "conspiracy" kept anyone from taking him seriously.

You might as well have said "Gore Vidal wasn't speeding! Thats just a third-party's crappy interpretation. Vidal said he was running late."

While the article did point out that the government mishandled evidence (what's new?) and Mcveigh had some help in planning the bombing, (though the exact extent of which is unclear) that hardly proves the more outlandish claims that Mcveigh wasn't central to the plot or that the feds actually had a hand in making it happen in order to scare us and ramrod anti-terrorism legislation into the books.

What evidence Vidal presented all fell in the categories of "evidence mishandled" and "leads not followed worth a damn." In other words, proof of government stupidity was passed off as proof of government malice.

Considering the length of the article, this was quite a disappointment. And you couldn't just quote the relevant parts Destro. You made me wade through rants about Waco and Opus Dei that led nowhere.

And don't bother about the suspect who was presumably an informant because he wasn't prosecuted. I really need something more than "its true because I can't prove it." I mean, after harping on and on about mishandled evidence and leads not followed, conjecture is suddenly proof enough? Double-standards don't impress me.

BTW, I'm still waiting to hear a response on the antisemitism accusation. Its strange to still not to hear so much as a peep on that.

8 Destro  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 12:54:47pm

re: #7 EiMitch

Calling out the "Pods" and being against the neocon right wing agenda as it relates to Israel is not antisemetic.

And I don't see a problem with Vidal's view that the govt benefits when bad stuff happens.

It's exactly what Thomas Freidman said about the Israeli-American politics dynamic but said with more flair by Vidal. Just that Vidal said it 30 years earlier.

[Link: seattletimes.nwsource.com...]

9 EiMitch  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 2:02:52pm

re: #8 Destro

At least you finally said something about it, after being prodded twice.

And I don't see a problem with Vidal's view that the govt benefits when bad stuff happens.

But Vidal went further than that. He was saying that the government was complicit to at least some extent. And now you're just plain denying it, even after making me read it from the horse's mouth. How sad.

Considering the mental gymnastic you've displayed thus far to rationalize Vidal's conspiracy theories, I've changed my mind about discussing the antisemitism/antizionism hair-splitting with you. I only foresee a pointless headache.

You really should stop idolizing conspiracy theorists. The notion that the government could do something so nefarious and keep it quiet for a couple of decades is laughable when you consider the stuff that has been leaked the past several years.

10 Destro  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 5:48:46pm

re: #9 EiMitch

You are the one failing to say what exactly Gore said the USA did as part of a conspiracy. The conspiracy I see Vidal advocating is the conspiracy of silence regarding a wider right wing involvement in OKC.

Something ADL also asserts:

[Link: www.adl.org...]

After Oklahoma City: A Connection to Timothy McVeigh

Beyond any resemblance to the Waco sect, the primary reason that Elohim City attracted media attention after the Oklahoma City bombing was the discovery of a link between the bomber and Millar's settlement. Federal investigators learned that Timothy McVeigh and Elohim City security director Andreas Strassmeir had previously met at a Tulsa gun show and that McVeigh had called the compound on April 5, 1995, two weeks before the bombing. At a May press conference in Elohim City, Millar denied any connections with McVeigh, telling reporters that his community had never heard of McVeigh prior to the bombing. He stated: "I don't think I've ever seen him. I don't think he's ever been in any of my audiences to the best of my knowledge. He may have gotten our telephone number from someone if he used our telephone number. And if he phoned here, nobody here has any knowledge of ever talking to him."

Two months later, Millar said that he now thought, based on government sources, that McVeigh had, in fact, placed a two-minute phone call to Elohim City shortly before the bombing. Millar said the call came in to a private residence on the grounds, to a room where some of the residents gather for coffee, but that he found no one who remembered talking to McVeigh. By the following January, his story changed again: he now confirmed that a woman at the encampment took what was believed to be McVeigh's telephone call. He said that the caller was trying to reach Strassmeir (who had left the community about two months after the bombing). The woman said the caller claimed to have met Strassmeir at a gun show and wanted to know if he could visit the compound. Strassmeir was given the name and phone number but reportedly said he "didn't remember meeting this person." Millar said Strassmeir's decision to leave Elohim City was not linked to the bombing.

Strassmeir, who returned to Berlin in January 1996, was subsequently identified as a 36-year-old Civil War buff from Germany, a former lieutenant in the German army and the son of a prominent German politician. Reportedly enjoying the quasi-military atmosphere that pervaded Millar's encampment, Strassmeir, through his attorney, Kirk Lyons, gained a position as a security guard at the compound. According to Lyons, Strassmeir hoped to marry an Elohim City woman and gain permanent resident status in the United States

On 9/11 he is saying that it it is possible if they knew ahead of time they let it happen. That is not even remotely wingnut Alex Jones territory.

11 EiMitch  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 8:42:12pm

re: #10 Destro

On 9/11 he is saying that it it is possible if they knew ahead of time they let it happen. That is not even remotely wingnut Alex Jones territory.

So he was just saying it was possible. Thats the same kind of weasel wording as "Just Asking Questions." How lame is that.

And why bring-up Alex Jones? ... O-o-o-oh-h, I get it! You're moving the goalposts from "he wasn't a troofer" to "he's not like that guy." Well too bad. The difference between Vidal and Jones is mere degrees. Let-it-happen vs. made-it-happen. *yawn* Yet, you talk like its totally different. In denial, much?

You are the one failing to say what exactly Gore said the USA did as part of a conspiracy. The conspiracy I see Vidal advocating is the conspiracy of silence regarding a wider right wing involvement in OKC.

Oh noes! Yous gots me! I didn't mention anything at all about that. /sarc

I addressed the "government let it happen" crap at the same time as the "government made it happen" crap. But if you weren't paying attention to post 7, its pointless to repeat it now. Suffice it to say, the same "its possible/JAQ" conjecture bs is prevalent in both OKC and 9-11 conspiracy theories.

A strawman, moving the goalposts... Your latest arguments are so weak and painfully sad that I'm going to just quit right here.

12 Destro  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 9:04:44pm

So you are saying that just because you don't like his opinions somehow your views are more accurate than Vidal's?

Your claim is I am moving the goal post. I am just saying I value his opinion over yours. The ADL seems to agree with Vidal that McVeigh had a wider connection with a right wing extremist group. What Vidal said against the neocons on Israel is no different than what Thomas Friedman just wrote in the NYT but Vidal did it first over 2 decades ago. And lastly, on 9/11:

[Link: progressive.org...]

August 2006

Q: What do you think of the conspiracy theories about September 11?

Vidal: I’m willing to believe practically any mischief on the part of the Bush people. No, I don’t think they did it, as some conspiracy people think. Why? Because it was too intelligently done. This is beyond the competence of Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld. They couldn’t pull off a caper like 9/11. They are too clumsy.

13 Bob Levin  Sun, Aug 5, 2012 6:28:18am

re: #12 Destro

What is so special about Thomas Friedman's opinions on anything? Is he correct all of time? Is he more accurate? The answer to both questions is 'no'. So what makes Friedman so special?

14 EiMitch  Sun, Aug 5, 2012 7:06:22am

re: #13 Bob Levin

You're wasting your breath keystrokes Bob. Destro has rationalized that my criticism is just a "difference of opinion," lack of evidence and his own backpedaling notwithstanding. He then proceeded to claim that his opinion is more "accurate," based on appeal to authority.

That last part is a howler of an irony. Its also a sure sign that Destro has slammed his mind shut. Its time to let it go.

15 Destro  Sun, Aug 5, 2012 7:31:19am

re: #14 EiMitch

Yea, it is. We have Gore Vidal, with a body of work going back to the 40s then we have a nobody like you trying to make hay over a nitpicked opinion that you distorted, like accusing Vidal of being a 9/11 truther when Vidal over and over says he does not think the Bush WH was involved only that those pukes took advantage of 9/11 to get stuff done they could not before, like invade Iraq or pass the Patriot act.

The charge of antisemitism is the most egregious but that would be like calling William F Buckley a homophobe because he called Vidal a 'queer' (and Buckley was not a crypto-nazi even though Gore called him that either).

If you can't get nuances then don't read.

16 Destro  Sun, Aug 5, 2012 7:32:25am

re: #13 Bob Levin

If person A says something person B says then you can't perecute person A while maintaining person B in good standing over it.

17 Destro  Sun, Aug 5, 2012 7:37:12am

re: #14 EiMitch

No, I have

"rationalized that [your] criticism is just a "difference of opinion,"

because you are a nobody on the internet attacking a man whose words will outlive you.

What I am saying is your attempt to smear Vidal after his death is laughable. You don't even accuse Vidal in ways that would be amusing, which is sadly no on in the internet age in America can pull off.


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