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1 Destro  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 9:34:37am

That is stupid all around. There is no law forcing breastfeeding in NYC only advice - based on science - that encourages breast feeding over formula feeding as much as possible if possible.

Gift baskets to new moms have had the formula's removed for example.

People like you are what is wrong with America, when you ignore or get upset science somehow wags a finger at your world view rather than accent the science and incorporate it into your life.

2 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 10:50:24am

re: #1 Destro

GGT is one of the nicest, most warm hearted people you'll run across. She's not "what's wrong with America"; What's wrong with America is the result of overly ideological people like yourself. Before you criticize the mote in someone else's eye, take the beam out of your eye first (paraphrase of a Gospel passage).

3 researchok  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 11:21:38am

re: #1 Destro

People like you are what is wrong with America, when you ignore or get upset science somehow wags a finger at your world view rather than accent the science and incorporate it into your life.

A classic case of projection. Textbook, really.

4 A Mom Anon  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 11:31:32am

re: #1 Destro

That's a little harsh. GGT is probably one of the kinder folks here. How does name calling help anyone see your point of view?

And there IS a bit of pressure on new moms to nurse over bottle feed and some of that pressure takes the form of being considered a bad mom or being selfish for choosing not to or being physically unable to. Having been through this myself twice,I can assure you there is judgement passed and it's unfair. No one can know,just by looking, if there are practical or medical reasons why a mother chooses formula over breast. I myself had big babies(daughter was 9lbs 2 oz,son was 12 lbs 4 oz-yes,12 lbs),and mostly nursed and supplemented with bottles when my body could not keep up with on demand feedings in those early months. I heard all kinds of crap from people who thought it was their business how I fed my kids. I couldn't win,lol. I caught shit for bottle feeding or for breast feeding at work. I see nothing wrong with educating new moms,but there should be support,not an attitude condemning choices made.

5 Destro  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 11:48:45am

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

She may be nice but her comment was stupid. There is no attempt to ban formula feeding. The science does say breastfeeding is superior to bottle-feeding and should be encouraged at all times. No one is stigmatizing nursing mothers if they have to formula feed.

Feelings aside, any attempt to denigrate breastfeeding may cause some to make the wrong decision. This is again an attempt to marginalize science when it goes across a personal views.

6 Destro  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 11:49:14am

re: #4 A Mom Anon

There is no attempt to ban formula feeding. The science does say breastfeeding is superior to bottle-feeding and should be encouraged at all times. No one is stigmatizing nursing mothers if they have to formula feed.

Feelings aside, any attempt to denigrate breastfeeding may cause some to make the wrong decision. This is again an attempt to marginalize science when it goes across a personal views.

7 Destro  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 11:51:14am

re: #3 researchok

Let me know what scientific fact I am against. I do see among many in America a disregard for science if the science makes something inconvenient.

For example, Sarah Palin bringing cupcakes to school to protest the first lady's healthy eating campaign.

8 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 11:57:31am

re: #5 Destro

She may be nice but her comment was stupid. There is no attempt to ban formula feeding. The science does say breastfeeding is superior to bottle-feeding and should be encouraged at all times. No one is stigmatizing nursing mothers if they have to formula feed.

Feelings aside, any attempt to denigrate breastfeeding may cause some to make the wrong decision. This is again an attempt to marginalize science when it goes across a personal views.

And promoting breastfeeding may cause some to make the wrong decision. The risk of people following advice and having it go badly for them is always there. Given the limitations of human beings, its not a solvable problem.

9 dragonath  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 11:58:48am

Why do you have to be such a jerk about it? The point could have been made well enough without calling her history's greatest monster or something.

10 Sophia77  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 12:01:08pm

Destro, sorry but you're off base here. There are attempts to shame women who don't breastfeed whether they're able to or not.

Putting formula in baskets isn't going to change a mom's mind if she wants to and is able to breastfeed.

By all means, get the facts out there about the benefits of breastfeeding. But realize, please, that most of us women aren't stupid, and we make choices all the time, difficult choices due to our own physical limitations as well as the needs of our families. We have to consider many factors including our jobs.

Now, if you want to lobby for something, get extended maternity leave, paid maternity leave, for both parents and also a system that won't victimize the poor lady who's picking up the slack at work. That's happened to me several times - I've covered for bosses who had babies and was happy to do so but I was doing double work at a much higher level of responsibility, sometimes for months and months, at the same rate of pay.

There are a lot of issues involved with motherhood in modern America and what we women DON'T need is more pressure, more aggravation and less choice.

And we sure as hell don't need to be shamed, period.

11 Destro  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 12:06:21pm

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

And promoting breastfeeding may cause some to make the wrong decision. The risk of people following advice and having it go badly for them is always there. Given the limitations of human beings, its not a solvable problem.

First of all, doctors inform a mother of what is acceptable or not. Secondly, formula feeding should always be seen - as it was when it was invented - as a back up - not the sole way to feed a baby.

Secondly, the Bloomberg initiative in New York is being attacked by right wing tools like the FOX owned NY Post for some right wing small govt reason I can't fathom. But anyone who argues the quack science that formula feeding is just as good as breast feeding should be confronted.


Baby formulas are loaded up with corn syrup. How about we start Americans without corn syrup in their first months on earth?

[Link: www.fda.gov...]

12 Destro  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 12:08:44pm

re: #10 Sophia77

I respect your opinion but honest to "god" I don't see any shaming going on here other than sceince based calls for moms to practice more breast feeding.

Having hospitals not offer milk formulas in gift baskets is not shaming.

13 researchok  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 12:31:50pm

re: #7 Destro

People like you are what is wrong with America, when you ignore or get upset science somehow wags a finger at your world view rather than accent the science and incorporate it into your life

Your remark was directed at her and beliefs she may hold that are different (read: more educated) than your own.

Projection, reinforced.

In any event, I'll just wait a bit longer.

14 Destro  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 12:41:56pm

re: #13 researchok

Your remark was directed at her and beliefs she may hold that are different (read: more educated) than your own.

Projection, reinforced.

In any event, I'll just wait a bit longer.

My beliefs? Science is not a belief system. Science is a facts based system. Christianity for example is a belief system.

Breastfeeding infants is far more biologically beneficial than feeding via formula to the point that studies show formula feadings vs breats feedings can affect infants long term development. That is not a 'belief' that is a scientific fact.

Americans need to end their 'belief based' world view and embrace a facts based world view - even if it means they have to consume something without corn syrup.

15 Destro  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 12:45:04pm

[Link: www.womenshealth.gov...]

Why breastfeeding is important

Breastfeeding protects babies

Mothers benefit from breastfeeding

Breastfeeding benefits society (I guess this makes breastfeeding a commie big govt issue).

16 ibob  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 12:58:25pm

re: #11 Destro

First of all, doctors inform a mother of what is acceptable or not. Secondly, formula feeding should always be seen - as it was when it was invented - as a back up - not the sole way to feed a baby.

Secondly, the Bloomberg initiative in New York is being attacked by right wing tools like the FOX owned NY Post for some right wing small govt reason I can't fathom. But anyone who argues the quack science that formula feeding is just as good as breast feeding should be confronted.

Baby formulas are loaded up with corn syrup. How about we start Americans without corn syrup in their first months on earth?

[Link: www.fda.gov...]

As an Ob/Gyn who nursed her own children and advises patients about nursing their babies, it is not as simple as you make it sound. Nursing in our society is difficult. You have to have a private place to pump to allow a reasonable milk letdown, a decent pump, willing coworkers, supportive husband and family, and many other things for nursing to be feasible for working mothers. It is not easy for either mothers who don't work outside the home. The last thing we need to do is give new mothers something else to feel guilty about. I try to encourage women to do what works best for them and their family- be it nursing, bottle feeding or whatever.

17 Destro  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 1:03:34pm

re: #16 ibob

As an Ob/Gyn who nursed her own children and advises patients about nursing their babies, it is not as simple as you make it sound. Nursing in our society is difficult. You have to have a private place to pump to allow a reasonable milk letdown, a decent pump, willing coworkers, supportive husband and family, and many other things for nursing to be feasible for working mothers. It is not easy for either mothers who don't work outside the home. The last thing we need to do is give new mothers something else to feel guilty about. I try to encourage women to do what works best for them and their family- be it nursing, bottle feeding or whatever.

I had to pull back for a while when I read your statement. I have lived in Europe for so long where breastfeeding in public is no big deal that maybe what the hang up here is the American culture.

I have to keep reminding myself that as great as the USA is it is backwards in many things like this. Let's change the culture rather than work around it?

18 ibob  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 1:14:13pm

re: #14 Destro

My beliefs? Science is not a belief system. Science is a facts based system. Christianity for example is a belief system.

Breastfeeding infants is far more biologically beneficial than feeding via formula to the point that studies show formula feadings vs breats feedings can affect infants long term development. That is not a 'belief' that is a scientific fact.

Americans need to end their 'belief based' world view and embrace a facts based world view - even if it means they have to consume something without corn syrup.

I do believe that breast feeding is ideal but it is not always practical. Also, the interaction between a mother and her baby is more crucial to development than what the baby actually drinks. Touch, eye to eye contact, play, crooning, etc is even more important than nursing. A mother doesn't have to nurse to be able do those things.

19 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 1:36:16pm

My mom breast fed her 7 kids, including twins. She read a book about raising twins and got the impression the author had only breastfed both of hers. She didn't figure out until after my sisters were weaned that the author had alternated the bottle and the breast for each baby. Mom felt she'd been had. "All that work for nothing!"

Yeah, one book was all the pressure it took. But those were babies #5 and 6, and I guess Mom was up to it.

20 ibob  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 1:38:49pm

re: #17 Destro

I had to pull back for a while when I read your statement. I have lived in Europe for so long where breastfeeding in public is no big deal that maybe what the hang up here is the American culture.

I have to keep reminding myself that as great as the USA is it is backwards in many things like this. Let's change the culture rather than work around it?

I didn't see your reply before my second note. Europe is much more progressive than the United States in many ways, especially concerning anything remotely regarding sexual issues. I am sure you not even consider nursing as a sexual issue, but here(especially in the deep South were I live) it is. Few male supervisiors want to even discuss, much less make accomendations for nursing mothers. Breast feeding is considered to be a woman's private concern and not to be discussed with a man outside of her husband. It's fine to set up arrangements among the other women at work, but leave the men out.

21 ibob  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 1:50:00pm

On rereading my comments, it is shocking how patriarchal and anachronistic the South sounds(and is). I tend to forget it is not normal since I deal with every day.

22 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 1:53:10pm

re: #21 ibob

On rereading my comments, it is shocking how patriarchal and anachronistic the South sounds(and is). I tend to forget it is not normal since I deal with every day.

"Normal" is what is normal where you are. If you grew up in the South, as my mother did (not in the Deep South, though), then the kind of 'refined manners' still seen and esteemed at social occasions in the South would seem normal to you.

23 dragonath  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 2:33:36pm

re: #22 Dark_Falcon

Cultural relativism!!

//

24 Destro  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 5:44:09pm

re: #20 ibob

From me, this sort of thing being debated is shocking because to see women breastfeed in public in Europe is no big deal. From my perspective, I can't for the life of me understand why there was some sort backlash to a breastfeeding initiative. It is like when France's president Sarkozy visited the USA and saw demonstrations holding signs calling universal healthcare akin to Nazism and asked Obama what the heck that is about. It is just bizarro.

25 Destro  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 5:44:40pm

re: #22 Dark_Falcon

Slavery and racial discrimination seemed normal to the South, too.

26 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 4, 2012 6:13:18pm

re: #25 Destro

Slavery and racial discrimination seemed normal to the South, too.

True that.

27 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sun, Aug 5, 2012 8:50:49am

I am serious about father's breastfeeding. If it is truly what is best for the baby, then it should also be encouraged. But, if that is proposed, you will immediately see cherry picking of scientific opinion about why it isn't. Because this is not a matter of what is best for baby, it is a matter of CONTROL of women.


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