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1 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 7:38:30pm

This is sadly to be expected. Sick fucks. I'd like to see one of those bigoted fucks last one day in a mine and see how they'd handle it. Probably not well.

2 Bob Dillon  Sat, Aug 18, 2012 10:12:15pm

Unions certainly have and have had their place in the evolution of society to the rightful benefit of workers. Why is it then that many union leaders have 6 figure incomes and high end lifestyles? Why have contracts been "negotiated" that bring companies and communities to bankruptcy? My heart bleeds for these miners and the conditions they struggle under. The shame is that most union members are used as pawns. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss".

3 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 4:22:54am

re: #2 Bob Dillon

Because unions are composed of people in America, and in America if you hold any position of power you collect 6 figure salaries and have a high end lifestyle?

Furthermore I have never heard of a company being driven into bankruptcy because of a union.

Next, why are unions and their management held to different standards than companies and their upper management? No one, save the usual suspects, suggests that we have to destroy capitalism when capitalists fuck up. Why is it, "We have to get rid of unions!" whenever unions, in the opinion of those who want unions gone, screwup?

And finally, suggesting that unions should be destroyed is an attack on a fundamental right in a democratic society: the right to freely assemble. I don't believe that the people wanting unions destroyed intend to stop there either.

4 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 6:11:54am

re: #3 Romantic Heretic

Because unions are composed of people in America, and in America if you hold any position of power you collect 6 figure salaries and have a high end lifestyle?

Furthermore I have never heard of a company being driven into bankruptcy because of a union.

I'd argue that both Chrysler and GM were in fact driven into bankruptcy by their unions incessant demands and insane work rules. Union work rules also help bankrupt that Kansas City steel mill the Dems try to hang on Mitt Romney. The mill went bankrupt in substantial part because the union refused to allow for needed changes in labor practices, such that only an electrician could change a light bulb.

Unions have a role to play in mining, its a fact, and its an important worker safety role. But they need to be somewhat reasonable and the South African mining union in question was being entirely unreasonable. And then it compounded that action by sending its members armed with lethal weapons to attack the police. Those who were shot while doing that deserved to be shot. And yes, I would say that if they were white, too.

5 Kronocide  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 6:53:09am

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

I'd argue that both Chrysler and GM were in fact driven into bankruptcy by their unions incessant demands and insane work rules.

Go right ahead.

RH beat me to pointing out where instances in which unions make mistakes or go too far are frequently held to be reasons to end unionism instead of criticizing that union and that policy.

We're dealing with stereotypes, inferences, and ideology here.

Why is it then that many union leaders have 6 figure incomes and high end lifestyles?

I don't know Bob. How many union leaders have six figure salaries, and what specifically are those salaries? $100,000 or $999,999? What are these high end lifestyles?

6 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 7:07:38am

re: #5 Kronocide

Go right ahead.

RH beat me to pointing out where instances in which unions make mistakes or go too far are frequently held to be reasons to end unionism instead of criticizing that union and that policy.

We're dealing with stereotypes, inferences, and ideology here.

I don't know Bob. How many union leaders have six figure salaries, and what specifically are those salaries? $100,000 or $999,999? What are these high end lifestyles?

Note, however, that my post did not call for the end of private-sector unions. I tried hard to avoid stereotypes and deal with the real situation.

7 Kronocide  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 7:14:48am

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

Note, however, that my post did not call for the end of private-sector unions. I tried hard to avoid stereotypes and deal with the real situation.

Noted, I was responding to three people and general perceptions/statement in one post trying to save electrons.

8 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 7:16:16am

re: #7 Kronocide

Noted, I was responding to three people and general perceptions/statement in one post trying to save electrons.

No problem. It's just so easy to get taken out of context that I make an extra effort to make sure people know what I mean.

9 Destro  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 8:56:12am

re: #1 HappyWarrior

re: #2 Bob Dillon

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

re: #5 Kronocide

I am sick and tired of Americans of the right claiming unions bankrupt or destroy companies or make products too expensive, etc.

How many times must we listen to a right wing ideology that has failed in all its predictions and assumptions?

Emprical evidence that Unions do not hurt profitability nor production quality:

[Link: www.forbes.com...]


How Germany Builds Twice as Many Cars as the U.S. While Paying Its Workers Twice as Much

There are “two overlapping sets of institutions” in Germany that guarantee high wages and good working conditions for autoworkers. The first is IG Metall, the country’s equivalent of the United Automobile Workers. Virtually all Germany’s car workers are members, and though they have the right to strike, they “hardly use it, because there is an elaborate system of conflict resolution that regularly is used to come to some sort of compromise that is acceptable to all parties,” according to Horst Mund, an IG Metall executive. The second institution is the German constitution, which allows for “works councils” in every factory, where management and employees work together on matters like shop floor conditions and work life. Mund says this guarantees cooperation, “where you don’t always wear your management pin or your union pin.”


Enough is enough.

10 Amory Blaine  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 9:24:42am

re: #9 Destro

What can you do? Right wing ideologues are invested in destroying unions, facts be damned. Bunch of fucking assholes that's all.

11 Amory Blaine  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 9:26:54am

re: #2 Bob Dillon

Unions certainly have and have had their place in the evolution of society to the rightful benefit of workers. Why is it then that many union leaders have 6 figure incomes and high end lifestyles? Why have contracts been "negotiated" that bring companies and communities to bankruptcy? My heart bleeds for these miners and the conditions they struggle under. The shame is that most union members are used as pawns. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss".

So who in your world is entitled to a 6 figure salary?

12 Amory Blaine  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 9:37:16am

Ronald Reagan: Collective Bargaining = Freedom

13 Shiplord Kirel  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 10:02:23am

It just occurred to me that anti-union indoctrination will undoubtedly be a big part of the curriculum in the right-wing's cherished voucher schools. Indeed, given right-wing hostility to teacher's unions, and the role these play in the right's demonization of public schools, this may in fact be a major objective of the voucher drive. The voucher hucksters certainly spend a lot of time yammering about gay communist union teachers, and contrasting these with the obedient and pure Christian (not to mention cheap) teachers they will employ. We concentrate on the anti-science and anti-enlightenment social agendas of these schools and their promoters, and for good reason. This should not lead us to ignore the more direct ways they can serve one of the most important objectives of the current right-wing, a cheap and docile labor force for the benefit of a self-defined elite.

14 andres  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 10:16:35am

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

Note, however, that my post did not call for the end of private-sector unions. I tried hard to avoid stereotypes and deal with the real situation.

What's different between a public-sector union and a private-sector union? Are public-sector workers somehow less valuable?

15 Destro  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 10:28:03am

re: #14 andres

What's different between a public-sector union and a private-sector union? Are public-sector workers somehow less valuable?

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

The trade off with public sector workers was that if they don't unionize and call for strikes etc, they would have work place security and a pension and a lower to mid level middle class living wage.

Then of course the right wing comes along and says we pay too much for public sector workers, there are too many of them and they should have their pensions reduced or eliminated or invested in Wall Street casinoes.

16 Destro  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 10:30:33am

re: #13 Shiplord Kirel

It just occurred to me that anti-union indoctrination will undoubtedly be a big part of the curriculum in the right-wing's cherished voucher schools. Indeed, given right-wing hostility to teacher's unions, and the role these play in the right's demonization of public schools, this may in fact be a major objective of the voucher drive. The voucher hucksters certainly spend a lot of time yammering about gay communist union teachers, and contrasting these with the obedient and pure Christian (not to mention cheap) teachers they will employ. We concentrate on the anti-science and anti-enlightenment social agendas of these schools and their promoters, and for good reason. This should not lead us to ignore the more direct ways they can serve one of the most important objectives of the current right-wing, a cheap and docile labor force for the benefit of a self-defined elite.

The right does not like the fact that public sector workers show the private sector non-unionzed workers where their wages would be now if they were unionized - and they try and make the lower paid private sector workers resent the public sector workers and call for the public sector workers t o be paid as little as they are rather than have the private sector worker demand wages and benefits rise up to meet public sector employee standards.

It is an astonishing switcheroo.

17 Destro  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 10:38:27am

re: #10 Amory Blaine

What can you do? Right wing ideologues are invested in destroying unions, facts be damned. Bunch of fucking assholes that's all.

On this other thread I pointed out the similarities between what happened at the South African mine with what happened at Blair Mountain unionizing miners in West Virginia which happened almost exaclty 91 years ago this August and I was downdinged because bringing the incident up was somehow anti-American.

Check it out:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

re: #3 Destro

Your obsessive anti-Americanism is tiresome.

Look at how the right wing piled on on any attempt to place what happened to Union workers in America in the past in context to the South African massacre of workers.

They seem threatened by it. They don't want any connections made to America's labor history.

18 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 10:44:29am

re: #17 Destro

On this other thread I pointed out the similarities between what happened at the South African mine with what happened at Blair Mountain unionizing miners in West Virginia which happened almost exaclty 91 years ago this August and I was downdinged because bringing the incident up was somehow anti-American.

Check it out:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

re: #3 Destro

Your obsessive anti-Americanism is tiresome.

Look at how the right wing piled on on any attempt to place what happened to Union workers in America in the past in context to the South African massacre of workers.

They seem threatened by it. They don't want any connections made to America's labor history.

Boy, you didn't read a word I wrote, did you?

19 Destro  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 12:32:38pm

re: #18 SanFranciscoZionist

Yea, still waiting for you to show how what I wrote about the Battle of Blair has no relevance for the South African mine massacre.

20 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 3:43:26pm

re: #14 andres

No, but public sector unions are able to vote as a bloc and often are thus able to select their own management. They then demand ultimately unsustainable wages and pensions.

But that's where I'm going to leave this matter. The incident in question involved private-sector mining unions, and I don't want things side-tracked.

21 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 3:57:41pm

re: #19 Destro

Yea, still waiting for you to show how what I wrote about the Battle of Blair has no relevance for the South African mine massacre.

1. Because the platinum mine owners have not engaged in the pattern of violence engaged in by the owners of the West Virginia (WV) coal mines. The violence had been between the two miners unions.

2. Moreover, the demand made by the union in South Africa (SA) was for triple wages immediately, a far higher demand than that made by the WV coal miners. Also, it was a demand made while the miners were supposed to still be under contract. It sometimes happens that a schism occurs within a union, but it has always been a normal understanding that the new union is still bound by the old union's contract for the duration of said contract. Thus the "wildcat" strike called by the newer miners unions in SA is in my eyes unreasonable.

3. Blair Mountain's trigger event was a gunfight precipitated by an attempt by detectives employed by the WV coal mine owners to illegally arrest a union leader. The trigger event for the police firing on the miners in SA was those miners advancing on the police armed with lethal weapons. The police were not the instigators of the violence, as the Balwin-Felt detectives had been in WV. In SA, it was the miners who instigated the violence.

22 Destro  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 5:40:34pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

1) The assertion that Platinum mine owners were not engaged in suppressive activities is absurd. Mining has been central to the history of repression in South Africa.

2) Both the WV miners and the SA miners demanded an increase. The % does not matter and indicates that the SA miners actually are way more underpaid than the WV miners since what is mined has more value and is harder to mine. Also, Poland's solidarity was a wild cat strike. The SA system is and has always been corrupt.

3) The trigger event was police firing tear has at the demonstrators, who were hemmed in at all sides - see trucks surrounding them - and they moved in the only open direction available to them - and were shot down.

But I find it telling how the right wing justifies and defends violence from the state on Unions and workers and the disenfranchised.

91 years ago, Labor activists took up arms to fight for their rights and these days right wing Americans piss down on unions.

23 andres  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 6:08:12pm

re: #20 Dark_Falcon

No, but public sector unions are able to vote as a bloc and often are thus able to select their own management. They then demand ultimately unsustainable wages and pensions.

But that's where I'm going to leave this matter. The incident in question involved private-sector mining unions, and I don't want things side-tracked.

Buuuuulls***. I'll leave it here, just like you're doing.

24 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 7:07:04pm

re: #22 Destro

1) The assertion that Platinum mine owners were not engaged in suppressive activities is absurd. Mining has been central to the history of repression in South Africa.

2) Both the WV miners and the SA miners demanded an increase. The % does not matter and indicates that the SA miners actually are way more underpaid than the WV miners since what is mined has more value and is harder to mine. Also, Poland's solidarity was a wild cat strike. The SA system is and has always been corrupt.

3) The trigger event was police firing tear has at the demonstrators, who were hemmed in at all sides - see trucks surrounding them - and they moved in the only open direction available to them - and were shot down.

But I find it telling how the right wing justifies and defends violence from the state on Unions and workers and the disenfranchised.

91 years ago, Labor activists took up arms to fight for their rights and these days right wing Americans piss down on unions.

2. A contract is a contract. The miners should have kept up their end of the bargain and then renegotiated later.

3. If they were hemmed in they should have dropped their weapons and submitted to the lawful authority.

25 Destro  Sun, Aug 19, 2012 9:47:37pm

The pathology of the right wing on display with your statement. A contract is a contract and I guess a loyalty oath to Hitler would have kept you obeying orders. Godwin's law not withstanding.


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