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21 comments

1 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, Aug 22, 2012 2:46:47pm

Just also to highlight the conclusion of this piece, which I fully agree with:

While the biggest parties in the Knesset argue with one another it is the smaller special interest parties who reap the rewards. Now is the time for real leadership yet none is forthcoming. It’s wonderful that Bibi prefaces every speech he makes with words about Iran but perhaps he should look a little closer to home for there are domestic enemies gaining in strength on his watch.

It’s about time someone stood up for sanity, risked the taking the bottle from the baby and actually made some moves towards laying down the law and stopping the onward march of persecution at the hands of religious numpties before Israel becomes Pakistan!

2 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Aug 22, 2012 3:36:27pm

I have seen what I considered inappropriate for a 6 year old. This was clothing that was inappropriately sexualized and just a smaller version of something that would be considered "sexy" on a 20 year old, like a black mini skirt with zippers and chains. 6 year old girls should wear pastel t-shirts with pictures of bunnies, with jeans with little flowers embroidered on them. Something like that. There's enough time to grow up, let them be children.

However, I have a strong feeling that this is not what we're talking about.

3 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Aug 22, 2012 3:41:16pm

Jimmah, let's get this through with.


I get that you feel all smug and superior to those crazy folks who believe in religion of any sort. But seriously, could you at least try to get some facts rather conflating a general whiny malaise stoked with faux outrage and silver-spoon socialist talking points that flit grasshopper like from one half formed idea to another?

You have no idea what you are talking about. Yet you smugly condescend to push through an utterly biased and misinformed far leftwing whine fest while feeling oh so superior and stomping over things you know nothing of.

Let's go in reverse order of this bullshit.

Iran is the primary funder of Hezbollah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Missiles and rockets that rain down daily on innocent Jewish people in Israel come from Iran. They are launched by proxy groups that swear to not stop until every last Jew on the Earth is killed. Iran itself talks constantly about wiping Israel off the map with the same hateful rhetoric and lies we have heard for thousands of years. They are working very hard to make an atomic weapon. They really mean it when they talk about killing.

They are also about as brutal as it gets when it comes to women's rights - You would think a lefty like you would notice that.

Damn straight Bibi talks about Iran. So does every single Israeli, left or right, that doesn't have his or her head in the ground.

As to women at the Kotel wearing a Talit...

I would like you to imagine the notion of being rude for a minute - I mean imagine that a left wing woman can be rude and actually wrong for a minute.

A sensible person would not walk into a vegan gathering and make a point about eating ribs just to make a scene.. A sensible person would not walk into a mosque and make a point about eating pork on Ramadan just to make a scene. That is the sort of thing Pam Geller fans would cheer at.

Yet you cheer at women wearing a talit at the Kotel. The talit doesn't mean a damn thing to you. Don't make a crocodile tear over it - and it certainly doesn't mean a damn thing to those women, other than a vehicle of protest and self gratification.

A sensible woman would not put on a talit at the Kotel. Even if she thought that women should be allowed to wear them, she wouldn't. She wouldn't because it is utterly rude. I don't give a damn what you think about her "right" to wear whatever she wants. No-one has an absolute right to wear what they want at all times. You have no idea what the issues are there and even if you did, they were pointedly trying to impose their views on the majority by making a scene. They were arrested for making a nuisance of themselves in a holy place. They were arrested for being assholes.

As to the six year old girls... wow yeah, a religious school has standards for their uniforms... Big shocker there.

Jimmah.

Let's be clear.

4 Ayeless in Ghazi  Wed, Aug 22, 2012 5:40:07pm

re: #3 Zionist Lord of Remulak

I get that you feel all smug and superior to those crazy folks who believe in religion of any sort.

Thanks for telling me how I feel/

Actually, no, I just disagree with them - strongly sometimes. That's on account of my being an atheist.

BTW if you hate me and it's clear that you do from the unprovoked venom of your response - you must really loathe Einstein. Do you really hate secular Jews, and I guess even Orthodox Jews - who are opposed to the worst excesses of fundamentalism?

So, Harry's Place - I guess that would be another 'anti-semitic' website now?

If you can't handle the idea of secular and even ordinary orthodox Jews opposing the misogyny and anti-enlightenment bullshit that is unquestionably on the rise in Israel today then I don't know what to say to you. Why in the hell shouldn't they oppose this growth in misogyny, creationist teaching and other whackadoodery in Israel, any more than sensible Americans - whether they are believers or not - should also do in America?

What an insane double standard you have.

You really can't figure that there is something wrong with a mindset that has a problem with the 'immodest' dress of six year old girls? What do you think they were they wearing before - bikinis? Who even thinks stuff like that up? Even if you are somehow ok with that, you really don't think that the growth of creationism within the religious communities in Israel should be opposed, or even that the problem should be recognised/discussed? Wow.

You can clearly see that following this path would spell disaster for America, but we are being asked to believe it will be fine and dandy for Israel?

Insane.

5 mr.JA  Wed, Aug 22, 2012 5:40:42pm

re: #3 Zionist Lord of Remulak

He talking about JEWISH people turning against the patriarchs in their own faith, which is something completely different to a non-vegetarian talking meat on a vegan dinner or a non-muslim eating pork during ramadam.
If a muslim woman stood up for her right and wanted (insert whatever right is denied here) in a mosque in the US, she would get so much support. Although I sympathize with the Israeli people, I absolutely do not with the colonists who make life for everyone so incredibly difficult, and play an all-or-nothing game. There's no compromise for these guys, which is something that is so badly needed in this conflict.

As for your last point, the topic started pointed out that these were effing public schools, NOT private religious schools. Government pays should mean that religion stays on the doorstep, and that dresscode should not be demanded by fundamentalists.

6 researchok  Wed, Aug 22, 2012 6:05:51pm

I take issue with the nature of the conversation- especially what appears to be an artificial adversarial exchange.

The Amish, Mennonites, Muslims and even Catholic schools all mandate what they consider appropriate dress codes. So what?

The religious context here is not really substantive, though it does sereve as the canvas for ought to be a more important topic.

What we really need to discuss here is the sexulization of children, especially young girls, in popular culture, media and moral standards

From the Pornifiction of Girlhood

Why, as psychologist Rollo May asked, has the commercialization of sex and pornography to been allowed to influence our society and culture, in a way that has made us believe that love and sex are not necessarily directly related? Why do fashion choices for kids include clothing that are entirely inappropriate for children?

When did the concept of modesty, in behavior, dress and lifestyle become so anachronistic? Why do we see couples viciously argue in public or in front of their children, as if they had no self control whatsoever?

More

I suspect most of us are more in agreement than we are at odds when discussing the more substantive issue.

We may be a diverse political lot but for the most part, we are a moral one.

7 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Aug 22, 2012 6:13:35pm

re: #4 Aye Pod

A remarkable bit of word salad there Jimmah.

Let's try to point some things out.

Try to remember them and not go flopping around to whatever free-association you might come up with.

1. Israel has freedom of religion. I know that is hard for you to believe, but they really do, and they also have private and publicly assisted religious schools. They also have secular schools as well.

2. People have the right to send or not send their kids to these schools. No one is forced to go to a religious school no matter how much state assistance it gets.

3. "Modesty" is a lame translation of the much richer concept of Tsniut. While I doubt sincerely the six year old girls in question were wearing bikinis before, the school none the less, gets to set its own dress code (whether we agree with it or not) and parents have the right to not send their kids. It is no different than a Catholic school in America. They have dress codes and standards of modesty too.

I know that seems terribly shocking and parochial, but really parents get to tell their kids what to wear.

Wow... the horror!

4. As to the notion that somehow six year old girls can be dressed immodestly being impossible, you are displaying your ability for dogma to blind you. If you were to go into many department stores in America, you will find skimpy bikinis for little girls. That is honestly disgusting. I get that your dogma prevents you from seeing why it is wrong to sexualize a little girl in that manner. I get that you can't see anything wrong with convincing them that sexualization at that age is ok, but it really isn't O.K.

In the world of the sane, it is a sign of your inability to reason that you haven't thought of it.

Your irrelevant little dig with your biased, and not quite completely truthful Einstein post, is humorous and a sign that you really are off your rocker. Do you think that Einstein's long love/hate relationship with religion would hurt my feelings?

How about an even bigger scientist than Einstein you must hate?

Newton loved God.

But then again, that has nothing to do with this. It is irrelevant. Nice try though. Care to free associate some more?

5. As to telling you how you feel... The only thing I told you how you feel on is that the Talit means nothing to you. As a proud and smug atheist, it surely does. So stop your whining.

6. As to misogyny in Israel... I think it should be pointed out that Israeli women enjoy a larger share of the franchise and have more rights than their counterparts in America or Europe. They were elected to high government office - long before Thatcher was in Britain. They have served in the military since the beginning. They have a higher percentage of professorships, M.D.s, Ph.D.s and other advanced degrees than in America or Western Europe.

Your sick article that you point out that you agree with as a special point compares their situation to that of women in Iran.

That makes you a moron.

8 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Aug 22, 2012 6:27:39pm

re: #5 mr.JA

He talking about JEWISH people turning against the patriarchs in their own faith, which is something completely different to a non-vegetarian talking meat on a vegan dinner or a non-muslim eating pork during ramadam.
If a muslim woman stood up for her right and wanted (insert whatever right is denied here) in a mosque in the US, she would get so much support. Although I sympathize with the Israeli people, I absolutely do not with the colonists who make life for everyone so incredibly difficult, and play an all-or-nothing game. There's no compromise for these guys, which is something that is so badly needed in this conflict.

As for your last point, the topic started pointed out that these were effing public schools, NOT private religious schools. Government pays should mean that religion stays on the doorstep, and that dresscode should not be demanded by fundamentalists.

I don't know you.

I do know that you have no idea what you are talking about or who you are talking to.

Let me enlighten you. I studied at Yeshiva in Jerusalem. I used to daven Shacharit every morning at the Kotel. I am also a professional physicist, very modern, and generally liberal.

The reality of Israel, and Israeli observance is that most Israelis are secular and frankly very similar in their patterns of observance as many American Catholics. Some have totally disconnected from the tradition. Some are definitely atheist. But many still feel a tenuous attachment.

That set shows up maybe once a month, or once a year, or even once a decade. But when they do show up, they show up to an actual schul, just like the American Catholic goes to an actual mass.

Yes, there are some Reform and Conservative Jews in Israel, but Reform Judaism exists more in America and Western Europe than any other place, and it has its own dogmas, while Conservative Judaism is almost entirely an American movement. In Israel, the joke, for the majority, is that "the schul I don't go to is observant."

The other largest group are religious Jews. That group is anything but monolithic.

That means of those who are actually going to pray at the Kotel, the vast majority respect the Traditions. The atheists just don't go you see.

I am sure your little feminist theory books tell you how horrible Judaism is and how patriarchal it is etc...

That is a debatable topic for another day.

What is salient here is that there is a very small minority of whacko women who feel the need to make a scene at the Kotel, in a way that pisses everyone else there off. And they are whacko, beause if they knew anything about the laws surrounding the Talit, you find that it is an insult against the men. You see, it assumes that men need more reminders to do what is right.

Of course, to know that, those women would have to actually know something about their horrible patriarchal religion. Ohhh... and the ten men saying Kadish... that is a tikun for the spies - in other words another reminder of when men messed up.

But you didn't know that. Now you do.

9 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 22, 2012 6:55:09pm

re: #5 mr.JA

Although I sympathize with the Israeli people, I absolutely do not with the colonists who make life for everyone so incredibly difficult, and play an all-or-nothing game.

Would you like to clarify that phrase? Colonists? I don't understand.

10 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Aug 22, 2012 7:08:53pm

re: #5 mr.JA

Actually, I missed the bit about colonists.

Would you care to explain how one can colonize one's own homeland?

11 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 22, 2012 7:25:46pm

By the way, would anyone know exactly what the dress code is? The schools my kids have attended, religious or secular, have all had dress codes. Seems like the word enzyme is 'immodest'. Pretty vague, but seems to cause anger. Why is that?

Because the word used in a blog is a sign of future events in Israel? Not the word, it's the event?

Then what does this event portend?

12 What, me worry?  Wed, Aug 22, 2012 7:32:49pm

re: #8 Zionist Lord of Remulak

I don't know you.

I do know that you have no idea what you are talking about or who you are talking to.

Let me enlighten you. I studied at Yeshiva in Jerusalem. I used to daven Shacharit every morning at the Kotel. I am also a professional physicist, very modern, and generally liberal.

The reality of Israel, and Israeli observance is that most Israelis are secular and frankly very similar in their patterns of observance as many American Catholics. Some have totally disconnected from the tradition. Some are definitely atheist. But many still feel a tenuous attachment.

That set shows up maybe once a month, or once a year, or even once a decade. But when they do show up, they show up to an actual schul, just like the American Catholic goes to an actual mass.

Yes, there are some Reform and Conservative Jews in Israel, but Reform Judaism exists more in America and Western Europe than any other place, and it has its own dogmas, while Conservative Judaism is almost entirely an American movement. In Israel, the joke, for the majority, is that "the schul I don't go to is observant."

The other largest group are religious Jews. That group is anything but monolithic.

That means of those who are actually going to pray at the Kotel, the vast majority respect the Traditions. The atheists just don't go you see.

I am sure your little feminist theory books tell you how horrible Judaism is and how patriarchal it is etc...

That is a debatable topic for another day.

What is salient here is that there is a very small minority of whacko women who feel the need to make a scene at the Kotel, in a way that pisses everyone else there off. And they are whacko, beause if they knew anything about the laws surrounding the Talit, you find that it is an insult against the men. You see, it assumes that men need more reminders to do what is right.

Of course, to know that, those women would have to actually know something about their horrible patriarchal religion. Ohhh... and the ten men saying Kadish... that is a tikun for the spies - in other words another reminder of when men messed up.

But you didn't know that. Now you do.

Also, to clarify (I know you know), regarding the schools in Israel, there are two state type (public) schools. One is considered a state school - public school. The other is a state-religious school. The state schools absolutely have Jewish study - cultural and historical, but not religious. State-religious schools include religious study.

[Link: www.jewishagency.org...]

And for the record, I don't agree with your take on women and the Talit, but that's ok.

I think it's important for people to realize that Israel and the U.S., although both democratic republics, function in very different ways.

13 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 22, 2012 8:37:30pm

re: #11 Bob Levin

By the way, would anyone know exactly what the dress code is? The schools my kids have attended, religious or secular, have all had dress codes. Seems like the word enzyme is 'immodest'. Pretty vague, but seems to cause anger. Why is that?

Because the word used in a blog is a sign of future events in Israel? Not the word, it's the event?

Then what does this event portend?

Some of the haredi schools have dress codes I find silly in the extreme. The changes described in the article don't seem inappropriate to a haredi school at all, but they are not the custom in the dati leumi community.

This is an internal struggle in the Orthodox communities, effectively. I would like to see the dati leumi parents set some boundaries, and make it clear that they are not planning to be shoved around, or have their minhag overriden. Assuming that they're uncomfortable with the dress code, that is. I would not be, if the curriculum was to my liking. But I've taught at (and am now teaching at) schools with fairly strict dress codes.

In terms of Israel's future, whether little girls are wearing skirts long enough to cover the knee is the last damn thing I'm worrying about, but the modern trend toward more and more tsniusdik dress is an ongoing source of amusement and annoyance to me. Some of my friends have children in schools that have dress codes that I think my shtetl-born great-grandmother would consider rather old-fashioned for children.

Israel's not going to become Pakistan. There are schools all over Israel where girls are wearing skin-tight jeans and tank tops, and that is not going to change. I'm flattered that this whole topic is interesting to people, but I've made it clear in the past how little credence I put in the "Israel is rocketing to the right" concern. Israel has always been a tangled mass of conflicting visions for Jewish life. Today is no different, nor will tomorrow be.

And the Lord of Remulak knows I disagree with him about tallisim on women at the Kotel, but that is an argument between Jews, and one for another day. (I have no damn energy right now.)

14 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Aug 22, 2012 8:41:29pm

re: #11 Bob Levin

By the way, would anyone know exactly what the dress code is?

Oh, and Bob, they want the girls to wear sleeves over the elbow, and skirts that cover the knee when they sit down. Hair pulled back. Standard Bais Yaakov stuff.

I'm more disturbed by the fact that they're bugging the dads about their haircuts conforming.

Folks had said life in Yeshiva
Sure was gonna be odd
They never did like mama's short sleeve dress
Papa didn't care much for God.

15 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 22, 2012 8:45:35pm

re: #14 SanFranciscoZionist

As men get older, our haircuts tend to conform, whether we like it or not.

[To the barber--]

You're done? Already?

16 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Aug 23, 2012 3:05:28am

re: #7 Zionist Lord of Remulak

As to the notion that somehow six year old girls can be dressed immodestly being impossible, you are displaying your ability for dogma to blind you. If you were to go into many department stores in America, you will find skimpy bikinis for little girls. That is honestly disgusting. I get that your dogma prevents you from seeing why it is wrong to sexualize a little girl in that manner. I get that you can't see anything wrong with convincing them that sexualization at that age is ok, but it really isn't O.K.

From the article:

According to a Maariv report on Monday, six-year-old girls must wear shirts that cover their elbows “even when raising their hands” and skirts that cover their knees “even when sitting.” The little girls must also wear long and loose pants during physical education classes.

Yeah, Ludwig - bikinis....right - that's what this is all about. Pathetic.

Your irrelevant little dig with your biased, and not quite completely truthful Einstein post, is humorous and a sign that you really are off your rocker. Do you think that Einstein's long love/hate relationship with religion would hurt my feelings?

Well you were pretty quick to 'demote' Einstein to a lower status of scientific acheivement than Newton (a believer) in response. And you don't seem to be too happy with the established fact that Einstein was an atheist, suggesting it is somehow untrue.

And it is entirely relevant - you seem to be seething with hatred for atheists these days - not to mention 'lefties' - so it's quite natural to ask if this extends to Einstein as well, who after all was both an atheist and a lefty.

As to misogyny in Israel... I think it should be pointed out that Israeli women enjoy a larger share of the franchise and have more rights than their counterparts in America or Europe. They were elected to high government office - long before Thatcher was in Britain. They have served in the military since the beginning. They have a higher percentage of professorships, M.D.s, Ph.D.s and other advanced degrees than in America or Western Europe.

So when we see evidence of actual misogyny we should ignore it, because Israel's cool, right? And if there is a growing fundamentalism that is pushing it, we should ignore that, too?

Your sick article that you point out that you agree with as a special point compares their situation to that of women in Iran.

The article does no such thing. Your endocrine system is clearly so overstimulated you can't even read properly anymore. Here is the line you are talking about, from this 'sick' article:

It’s wonderful that Bibi prefaces every speech he makes with words about Iran but perhaps he should look a little closer to home for there are domestic enemies gaining in strength on his watch.

The writer is suggesting that the growing influence of fundamentalist, anti-enlightenment forces in Israel is perhaps a greater threat to Israel's future than Iran. Given what my Israeli friends are telling me, and what I've been reading recently about this growth of fundamentalism in Israel from the treatment of women to the gedolim adopting creationism, I am forced to agree.

They don't want to see Israel flushing it's future down the pan by turning into a fundamentalist shithole, and nor do I.

17 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 23, 2012 6:41:15am

re: #12 What, me worry?

Hey marjoree!

I understand that the talit issue is something that many American women have many strong feelings about.

So a couple of things that are not my opinion before I say my opinion.

The commandment to put fringes on a garment is something that is said three times a day in the third paragraph of the Shema (which, as you know, is composed of verses straight from the Torah). It even tells you why you put them on - so you don't go exploring after your heart.

It is literally like putting a string around your finger as a reminder to be good and do mitzvot.

This is also something that men are commanded to do. It is not my opinion that men are ordered to do this as an extra reminder. It is not my opinion that women are seen as more in tune with mitzvot and hence don't need the reminder. That really is the Tradition. The talit rather explicitly implies men are more prone to wander.

As to the Kadish being a tikun for the spies. This too is true. This is what the Tradition says.

Whether you believe what it says is right is up to you. It is also something that is pointed at the men.

Strictly speaking, there is nothing in the Law, that I know of, that would prohibit a woman from wearing a talit in of itself.

However, there is a strong prohibition against cross dressing. This is not my opinion either. That is a straight up Torah commandment.

For many thousands of years, a talit was nearly exclusively a man's garment. In those thousands of years, there were some women who wanted to wear them and some who made the same arguments as today. But, they were the smallest minority.

That is legally important, because the Jewish legal definitions of male and female garments are based on what is commonly worn. A great example of that is that a Scottish Jew can wear a skirt if it is called a kilt - otherwise, he is cross dressing.

I have not said a thing about if I agree with these laws yet, or if you should agree with them yourself. However these really are the laws. Even though there is a great deal of Jewish debate over the law, some things were clearly on the books and generally agreed upon a long time ago. Anyone can look them up and look at what the majority has done since time immemorial.

OK... now as to my opinion.

In light of what the fringes are actually for, and in light of why a minyan is needed, if I were around in the Sixties to discuss it with the American women who became vocal over their right to wear them and be counted in a minyan, I would have been perplexed as to why they would want to lump themselves into a category (men) that is being penalized for being easily led astray.

However, it would not have been on my top ten list of things to worry about or get upset about. It isn't something I lose sleep over today either.

As of today, we have two generations of women, and now grand-daughters who wear talits and kepot in synagogue.

One could argue that this has become their minhag and this supercedes the prohibition against cross-dressing because the style has become common.

Only of course, it hasn't really. This is predominantly an American phenomenon - and it is generally not appreciated in the rest of the world.

It isn't even the majority of American Jews.

Even in liberal conservative and reform synagogues (at least the ones I have been in), most of the women still do not wear a talit to pray. Yes, there are always some who proudly don the talit and *dare* others to question them. But most women don't. This is because most Jews find seeing a woman in a talit as exactly as weird as they would find seeing their fathers pulling a lace shawl over their heads, covering their eyes and lighting Shabbos candles.

Either way, if you go to a house of worship, you obey the rules. If I were in a church or a mosque, I would be on my best behaviour. The Kotel has the old rules that the majority still follow.

18 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Aug 23, 2012 6:48:57am

re: #16 Aye Pod

Wow... you apparently didn't read a single thing I wrote or comprehend the meaning of any of the words.

Please breath, re-read what was written, and then look at your response. Your response seems to be pointed at a magical person who is not in this conversation.

Consider this from above:

3. "Modesty" is a lame translation of the much richer concept of Tsniut. While I doubt sincerely the six year old girls in question were wearing bikinis before, the school none the less, gets to set its own dress code (whether we agree with it or not) and parents have the right to not send their kids. It is no different than a Catholic school in America. They have dress codes and standards of modesty too.

I know that seems terribly shocking and parochial, but really parents get to tell their kids what to wear.

And yeah, little girls need to wear skirts that cover their knees...

Wow... that is misogyny that is flushing Israel down the toilet?

Do you have any idea how much your dogma has led you to say insane things?

19 Bob Levin  Thu, Aug 23, 2012 8:06:50am

re: #16 Aye Pod

Then what you need to do, for yourself, is find evidence that the 'shithole' hypothesis is incorrect. I have no trouble locating such evidence, and my conclusion is that Israel will continue to be a scientific and technological leader in the world--provided those who are making real threats to annihilate Israel don't make any progress.

There are several internal fights in Israel right now, one of which is how to integrate the very religious into this scientific flow. Evidence of this should be easy to find.

I just found this, from Ha'aretz, an opinion piece wrapped in too many politics. But these are some facts:

There is a tremendous world of Torah on IDF bases, in which students of hesder yeshivas (which combine Torah study with military service ), and graduates of the pre-army mechinot (which combine Torah study with preparation for military service ) find time at ungodly hours to study a page of Talmud. Otherwise they spend day and night protecting Israel's security. Once and for all we have to expose the lie that there is a contradiction between Torah and service in the IDF.

What I am saying, is that there is more than a tiny bit of evidence that would lead you to another conclusion. And it's not hard to find.

20 What, me worry?  Thu, Aug 23, 2012 7:34:35pm

re: #17 Zionist Lord of Remulak

Hola Remulak! Good to see you. Hope you've been well :)

You can definitely speak to these subjects better than I. I do realize it's tradition and keeping these traditions for 5700 years has kept us and our religion intact. I'm proud of that and who we are as a people, even if I don't agree with each and every one of those traditions. It's not so odd. We've been arguing amongst ourselves from the beginning.

And maybe that's my point. It's our religion and we are the ones who have to figure it out. I'm not saying others can't offer constructive criticism or ideas, but sadly Jimmah (and he's not alone) don't seem to do that. Their "critique" is often full of fault finding and shaming, with little compassion or understanding, and that bothers me.

As to this story, I assume "religious Zionist schools" refers to the religious public school. There are non-religious public schools, too, as I mentioned above. Other than dress, there are issues about asking how religious the household is, more segregation of the sexes, father's haircuts(?), etc. So it's clearly an attempt to make the school more conservative.

What I don't think this is about, at all, is the idea that 6 year olds are in any way sexually suggestive. I didn't even get that by reading the story. They seem to want to start fresh, already accustomed to more modest dress instead of changing as they get older.

I don't agree with dressing this modestly, but it's none of my business, quite frankly. If a Muslim woman, Jewish woman, Hindu woman, ANY woman wants to cover herself, she has every right to do so. And yea, you have the right to raise your child in the same style. It's not for me or my family. We can talk about it as a feminist issue, but I think we have larger fish to fry.

Since the parents of these children chose this school and not a more Orthodox one, I think they have something to complain about, but quite frankly, it's not a story for outrageous outrage.

21 What, me worry?  Thu, Aug 23, 2012 7:36:51pm

Sorry.. .double posted.


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The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
Cheechako
2 days ago
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Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 268 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1