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1 Charles Johnson  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 11:12:43am

It's absolutely true that you'll find misogyny on both right and left, politically. But in this country, only one side actually has openly woman-hating politicians elected to office year after year, making laws and national policy, and it ain't the left.

2 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 11:27:39am

re: #1 Charles Johnson

It's absolutely true that you'll find misogyny on both right and left, politically. But in this country, only one side actually has openly woman-hating politicians elected to office year after year, making laws and national policy, and it ain't the left.

Can't argue there. This isn't, for me, a case of 'who do you support politically?' (In my case, centrist Democrats, a group I generally consider to have a very fine record re women's issues.) I have no option to vote for or against George Galloway, and most of the rest of these folks are pundits and soi-disant activists.

It's about how deeply ingrained this sort of thinking still is in society, and the willingness of all sorts of people to consider sexual assault less important than their pet causes, be those causes pro-life legislation, or being more in support of Julian Assange than any other lefty on the block.

3 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 11:38:26am

A letter to George Galloway:

P.P.S. I retract my remark towards the end of my letter comparing you to a squid. I like squids.

[Link: stavvers.wordpress.com...]

4 HappyWarrior  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 11:44:52am

re: #3 SanFranciscoZionist

A letter to George Galloway:

P.P.S. I retract my remark towards the end of my letter comparing you to a squid. I like squids.

[Link: stavvers.wordpress.com...]

Heh that's a nice letter. Really Galloway's an ass and the reason why the term useful idiot was invented.

5 Gus  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 11:49:54am

One would think that the left would by and large know better in these matters. One saving grace here of course is that the left does not blindly support Assange and there are many critics of both him an Wikileaks that comes from the left.

However, the blinding support is sometimes overwhelming and any vocal critic will be met with a barrage of harassment on the internet organized by Wikileak, Glenn Greenwald and others. Quite simple I one cannot say "rape is rape" and then turn around and make Assange an exception.

In what might seem like a defense of Assange I will say that he is not really charged with anything and is primarily wanted for questioning by the Swedish authorities. Sweden has been both dragging their feet and there has been much diplomatic squabbling going on between them and the British authorities.

6 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 12:05:07pm

re: #5 Gus

One would think that the left would by and large know better in these matters.

Oh but they do:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

;-)

7 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 12:08:14pm

Look, a squirrel! And it looks just like George Galloway.

8 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 12:09:07pm

re: #7 The Left

Look, a squirrel! And it looks just like George Galloway.

Who, in turn, looks exactly like an arse.

9 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 12:20:10pm

re: #2 SanFranciscoZionist

Can't argue there. This isn't, for me, a case of 'who do you support politically?' (In my case, centrist Democrats, a group I generally consider to have a very fine record re women's issues.) I have no option to vote for or against George Galloway, and most of the rest of these folks are pundits and soi-disant activists.

It's about how deeply ingrained this sort of thinking still is in society, and the willingness of all sorts of people to consider sexual assault less important than their pet causes, be those causes pro-life legislation, or being more in support of Julian Assange than any other lefty on the block.

Although far more prevalent on the right, misogyny exists within every part of the political spectrum. Also, although misogynistic attitudes are often rightly associated with religion, particularly fundamentalists, atheist circles are also having to deal with people in their ranks who have these attitudes - the ugliness over the 'elevatorgate' incident at last years World Atheist Conference is a recent example.

In the case of the Assange die-hards, I think some of them are so naive that they think that someone with suich 'perfect' ideals as Assange couldn't possible be guilty of any serious crimes. As for the others, they probably have issues with female relationships of a similar sort to Assange, and retreat to the same misogynistic bullshit as he has.

10 ErikJ76  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 1:24:47pm

While I don't have much doubt that Assange did what he's accused of, I'm not so sure I'd call what he did rape. Two counts of having sex without a condom and one count of having sex with one of the women while she was sleeping (the morning after they had consensual sex).

If a man goes to a bar and meets a woman and they go back to his or her place, have sex, fall asleep, and the next day she wakes him giving oral stimulation, is he being raped?

Or, a couple, married for 20 years, where the wife, as a surprise, having gotten the idea from a magazine, wakes her husband up on his birthday in the same way, is he being raped too?

A woman tells her boyfriend that he doesn't need to use a condom, which he insists on, since she's on birth control, but she lies about it. Is he raped too?

11 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 1:35:21pm

re: #10 ErikJ76

If a man goes to a bar and meets a woman and they go back to his or her place, have sex, fall asleep, and the next day she wakes him giving oral stimulation, is he being raped?

there's a fundamental assymetry in your analogy. The man's body is not being penetrated - physically and psychologically, it's different. Not saying there aren't guys who might feel freaked out if that happened to them, especially if it was a woman they didn't feel entirely comfortable with - but it is still different.

How would the guy feel if he woke to find a woman had been rogering his arse with a large dildo?

12 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 1:36:43pm

I just updinged Jimmah and I liked it.

13 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 1:39:36pm

re: #12 The Left

I just updinged Jimmah and I liked it.

I just got totally updinged by The Left and I liked it.

14 ErikJ76  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 1:41:31pm

re: #11 Aye Pod

Your point is that men can't be raped then? Only by being penetrated you can be raped? Wow.

Is there a difference between a underage male student having sex with a female teacher and a female underage female student having sex with a male teacher?
Does it matter if the female teacher is hot or not?

15 Ayeless in Ghazi  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 1:48:54pm

re: #14 ErikJ76

Your point is that men can't be raped then? Only by being penetrated you can be raped? Wow.

Is there a difference between a underage male student having sex with a female teacher and a female underage female student having sex with a male teacher?
Does it matter if the female teacher is hot or not?

Nope. Not saying any such thing. Just that an unsolicited blowjob is different, physically and psychologically from being penetrated, as in the case of male perpetrated rape. It could also constitute rape, which if you really feel that way you should have no problem seeing that one shouldn't dismiss the gravity of the charges against Assange.

16 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 2:06:07pm

re: #14 ErikJ76

Your point is that men can't be raped then? Only by being penetrated you can be raped? Wow.

Is there a difference between a underage male student having sex with a female teacher and a female underage female student having sex with a male teacher?
Does it matter if the female teacher is hot or not?

So what is your point? If non-penetrative sex with a man against his will should be considered rape, what Assange is charged certainly should be as well.

In one of the cases, the woman alleges that he forcibly held her down. This is considered rape anywhere on the planet I would care to live.

17 ErikJ76  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 2:12:36pm

re: #15 Aye Pod

Obviously I disagree here, and since we are talking about the Swedish law, here it is:

1 § Den som genom misshandel eller annars med våld eller genom hot om brottslig gärning tvingar en person till samlag eller till att företa eller tåla en annan sexuell handling som med hänsyn till kränkningens art och omständigheterna i övrigt är jämförlig med samlag, döms för våldtäkt till fängelse i lägst två och högst sex år.

Detsamma gäller den som med en person genomför ett samlag eller en sexuell handling som enligt första stycket är jämförlig med samlag genom att otillbörligt utnyttja att personen på grund av medvetslöshet, sömn, berusning eller annan drogpåverkan, sjukdom, kroppsskada eller psykisk störning eller annars med hänsyn till omständigheterna befinner sig i ett hjälplöst tillstånd.

Now, being fluent in Swedish, I can tell you that none of the paragraphs defines rape as being penetrated, but you could always translate it through Google Translate.

Forgot that you never addressed the two counts of not using a condom, is that rape? The penetration as such was consensual, but is there a physical and psychological difference being penetrated by a penis with or without a condom?

18 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 2:16:22pm

re: #17 ErikJ76

Forgot that you never addressed the two counts of not using a condom, is that rape? The penetration as such was consensual, but is there a physical and psychological difference being penetrated by a penis with or without a condom?

Uh, yes. A woman who wants a condom used is not just expressing a preference, she is protecting herself from unwanted pregnancy and disease. A man who uses physical force to override that request is demonstrating disregard for his partner's physical wellbeing, demonstrating disregard for her stated limitations on their sexual encounter, and ignoring the terms under which she agreed to have sex with him, that is, disregarding her consent or lack thereof.

19 ErikJ76  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 2:34:35pm

re: #18 SanFranciscoZionist

Uh, yes. A woman who wants a condom used is not just expressing a preference, she is protecting herself from unwanted pregnancy and disease. A man who uses physical force to override that request is demonstrating disregard for his partner's physical wellbeing, demonstrating disregard for her stated limitations on their sexual encounter, and ignoring the terms under which she agreed to have sex with him, that is, disregarding her consent or lack thereof.

And a man may protect himself from becoming a father by wanting to use a condom. Not sure what he difference is between saying that you are going to use a condom and then ripping it, or saying that you are on birth control when you aren't.
The reasons for wanting to use a condom isn't the issue, Assange is being accused of being in breach of the what was agreed upon to have sex.

20 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 2:44:54pm

re: #19 ErikJ76

And a man may protect himself from becoming a father by wanting to use a condom. Not sure what he difference is between saying that you are going to use a condom and then ripping it, or saying that you are on birth control when you aren't.
The reasons for wanting to use a condom isn't the issue, Assange is being accused of being in breach of the what was agreed upon to have sex.

Still not sure what your point here is. I'm not speaking in favor of women sabotaging men's birth control or sexually assaulting men, and no one here is either. Sexual assault is bad, mmmkay? I think Assange should face the charges against him. If they aren't supported by the law or the facts, let that be decided in a Swedish court.

Any comment on the part about him physically holding the woman down?

21 Sionainn  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 2:58:37pm

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

Still not sure what your point here is. I'm not speaking in favor of women sabotaging men's birth control or sexually assaulting men, and no one here is either. Sexual assault is bad, mmmkay? I think Assange should face the charges against him. If they aren't supported by the law or the facts, let that be decided in a Swedish court.

Any comment on the part about him physically holding the woman down?

Yeah, I'm really interested in a comment about that, too.

22 ErikJ76  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 3:14:35pm

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

Still not sure what your point here is. I'm not speaking in favor of women sabotaging men's birth control or sexually assaulting men, and no one here is either. Sexual assault is bad, mmmkay? I think Assange should face the charges against him. If they aren't supported by the law or the facts, let that be decided in a Swedish court.

They want Assange extradited to question him about this, don't think he has been charged Thing is he could have been questioned until he left Sweden, they weren't interested, and after that they could have either travelled to the UK to question him or for that matter do a video/phone questioning.
For some reason they need him to travel back to Sweden.

Any comment on the part about him physically holding the woman down?

Sure, they were going to have sex and Assange didn't want to use a condom, and he held her down to make it impossible for her to get one. The woman told him he had to wear a condom if he wanted to penetrate her, Assange then let her go and the woman got a condom, that he then put on.
The woman checked that it was on, but later he withdrew his penis, and the woman sensed that he did something with it, she thinks that he then may be ripped it or something like that. He then entered her again, but she still felt the condom at the root of his penis. She then believes that he came inside her.
The woman said that she voluntary had sex with Assange, but wouldn't have had it if she had known that he wouldn't have worn a condom.

This is from the woman's statement.

Assange holding her down doesn't seem to be an issue to her.

23 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 3:28:20pm

re: #22 ErikJ76

They want Assange extradited to question him about this, don't think he has been charged Thing is he could have been questioned until he left Sweden, they weren't interested, and after that they could have either travelled to the UK to question him or for that matter do a video/phone questioning.
For some reason they need him to travel back to Sweden.

Sure, they were going to have sex and Assange didn't want to use a condom, and he held her down to make it impossible for her to get one. The woman told him he had to wear a condom if he wanted to penetrate her, Assange then let her go and the woman got a condom, that he then put on.
The woman checked that it was on, but later he withdrew his penis, and the woman sensed that he did something with it, she thinks that he then may be ripped it or something like that. He then entered her again, but she still felt the condom at the root of his penis. She then believes that he came inside her.
The woman said that she voluntary had sex with Assange, but wouldn't have had it if she had known that he wouldn't have worn a condom.

This is from the woman's statement.

Assange holding her down doesn't seem to be an issue to her.

So we have a report of an episode in which both physical force and deceit were used to gain sex without a condom, and that's illegal under Swedish law...so Sweden would like to speak to Mr. Assange. I'm failing to see a problem here.

And don't give me this bullcrap about how they should speak to him by videophone in London...he's already trying to get away from them, and you know perfectly well that if they interview him and then formally charge him, his supporters will still be sniveling that a hero of the people is allowed to break a few dumb laws.

Frankly, if the moron manages to exile himself to Ecuador for life, he will have it coming. I'm sure that holding girls down and pretending to use condoms to get them to shut up isn't even considered 'bad sexual etiquette' in Ecuador, just a night out on the town.

24 ErikJ76  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 3:43:17pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

So we have a report of an episode in which both physical force and deceit were used to gain sex without a condom, and that's illegal under Swedish law...so Sweden would like to speak to Mr. Assange. I'm failing to see a problem here.

There was force, but when she told him he had had to put on a condom he did, she then thinks he ripped the condom. In her statement she didn't accuse him of rape through violence, she accused him of ripping the condom thus breaching the agreement under which she agreed to have sex with him. There's also no indication from the her statement that she objected to being held and that he wouldn't let her go. As I wrote, according to her, when she told him to put on a condom, he did.

It's not illegal to gain sex without a condom, there no such Swedish law. The issue here is consent. She agreed to have sex if he wore a condom. Same goes with him having sex with the other woman while she was sleeping. Consent.

And don't give me this bullcrap about how they should speak to him by videophone in London...he's already trying to get away from them, and you know perfectly well that if they interview him and then formally charge him, his supporters will still be sniveling that a hero of the people is allowed to break a few dumb laws.

Actually, he was in Sweden for a while before travelling to the UK, he asked to be questioned, but they weren't interested until he had left. He's not a Swedish citizen, so I'm not sure it would come as a surprise to them that he left country after a while. But until he left, he was at their disposal.

Frankly, if the moron manages to exile himself to Ecuador for life, he will have it coming. I'm sure that holding girls down and pretending to use condoms to get them to shut up isn't even considered 'bad sexual etiquette' in Ecuador, just a night out on the town.

Doesn't seem that you have a very objective view of Assange, does it...

25 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 3:52:30pm

re: #24 ErikJ76

Doesn't seem that you have a very objective view of Assange, does it...

Really, I think I'm being more insulting to Ecuador there...

26 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 4:09:21pm

re: #24 ErikJ76

Even if she doesn't, what of it? Assange's actions have actions damaged America's national security, and his aims run at cross purposes to those of America's. As an American, it would be hard for SFZ to be objective about that. As for me, I'll go one past that and say that I'm not objective when it comes to Julian Assange. I hate him, and will normally assign the worst interpretations of his actions that the evidence will support.

And lastly is the fact that Julian Assange exudes the sort of arrogance that makes him entirely believable as a rapist. Assange is the kind of man just has to have it all his own way, and those who disagree with him are either dupes, shills, or just plain evil. I can easily see him taking that air of entitlement into the bedroom, with ugly consequences for the woman whose wishes don't match up with his own.

27 ErikJ76  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 4:36:24pm

re: #26 Dark_Falcon

Even if she doesn't, what of it?

If you're objective then when you receive new information that challenges your views you may change them, but I guess neither of you will. But the fact that you're both are quite open about not being objective is at least something.

28 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Aug 25, 2012 6:51:48pm

re: #27 ErikJ76

If you're objective then when you receive new information that challenges your views you may change them, but I guess neither of you will. But the fact that you're both are quite open about not being objective is at least something.

I'm entirely open to the idea that Assange may eventually not be charged, or may not eventually be found guilty if charged.

I guess we'll never know, since he's too afraid of all of the other shit he's stirred up to face the law.

You, on the other hand, seem to think that endless sophistry will somehow make the simple fact that he is accused of rape go away. Your rationalizations are charming...and they're exactly the line of thinking that the original post was about.

You're not in a good position to claim other people aren't being 'objective'.


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