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1 Destro  Sun, Aug 26, 2012 8:57:46pm

The French were right and the American team cheated.

2 Flavia  Sun, Aug 26, 2012 9:02:58pm

There is not only no proof other than "he said" that Armstrong doped, there is every proof that he did NOT: he has never failed a drug test, and he has been positively hounded with them.

At this point, I say that if he's that clever & actually did dope in some special way that only he in the entire world knows how to do to avoid detection, than, more power to him!

3 Destro  Sun, Aug 26, 2012 9:21:49pm

re: #2 Flavia

There is not only no proof other than "he said" that Armstrong doped, there is every proof that he did NOT: he has never failed a drug test, and he has been positively hounded with them.

At this point, I say that if he's that clever & actually did dope in some special way that only he in the entire world knows how to do to avoid detection, than, more power to him!

He has failed dope tests but explained it away.

4 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Sun, Aug 26, 2012 9:23:41pm

re: #3 Destro

He has failed dope tests but explained it away.

Citation please.

5 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Aug 26, 2012 9:26:49pm

What would you suggest to fix the process?

6 philosophus invidius  Sun, Aug 26, 2012 9:59:14pm

re: #1 Destro

The French were right and the American team cheated.

I don't see any need to turn this into a nationalistic or anti-American thing.

Veteran NYTimes reporter George Vecsey sums it up.

Did he do “it”? Let’s put it this way (and I say this as somebody who covered some of his Tours de France, and knows and likes some of Armstrong): he was the best cyclist of his time, in maybe the dirtiest sport in existence.

A great champion like Greg LeMond could witness Armstrong barreling up some Alpine pass and insist that no human could possibly climb at that rate without doping. LeMond and some friends were righteous in their rage and suspicion. Yet other cyclists were testing positive even under the halfhearted efforts of the world cycling body.

Was Armstrong using some more potent drug, or using it more often? I doubt that. My guess is that cycling has been the ultimate level playing ground we all say we want for sports. It was also a lethal business, by the way: young Tour aspirants were falling off their machines, quite dead, because their altered blood was the thickness of tomato bisque.

The ones who really did not want to dope went away. Check out the recent essay “How to Get Doping Out of Sports,” by Jonathan Vaughters, in The New York Times Sunday Review.

The whole article is quite interesting, but one part I hadn't seen elsewhere was particularly striking:

On the team bus, [Lance's masseuse, Emma O’Reilly] claimed, she heard several top team officials fretting about a positive test by Armstrong for steroids. They were in a panic, saying: “What are we going to do? What are we going to do?” Their solution was to get one of their compliant doctors to issue a [back-dated] prescription for a steroid-based ointment to combat saddle sores. If Armstrong had saddle sores, O’Reilly said, she would have known.

[Link: nyti.ms...]

Yeah, I know: hearsay etc. But how could the USADA put together a huge list of witnesses just based on people being "out to get Lance"? It doesn't pass the smell test.

7 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Aug 26, 2012 10:33:05pm

Ultimately I do not care if Lance cheated because the cop's cheating was far worse.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who will guard the guardians? That is the real issue here. As long as the USADA exists, I will not accept any of their statements as valid.

Sometimes it really is that simple.

8 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Aug 26, 2012 10:48:32pm

USADA is fatally broken. Yes, I know you hate that fact Destro. But ya know what? We all have to deal with reality...

9 Destro  Mon, Aug 27, 2012 5:51:51am

re: #6 philosophus invidius

I don't see any need to turn this into a nationalistic or anti-American thing.

Why is mentioning France anti-American for pete's sake!

I mentioned the French team because they were the first (or the most vocal) to claim Armstrong doped. Hence, my statement.

As for doping, seems everyone thinks everyone else dopes.

Read: [Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

As for me, I am going to think outside the box and say I think doping should be allowed as long as it's announced. I find doping within limits no different than the advantage some athletes get from sleeping in hyperbaric chambers or using high tech sports gear to give them tenths of a second advantages.

We may even get drug companies sponsoring athletes someone pointed out.

10 Destro  Mon, Aug 27, 2012 6:04:40am

re: #4 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All

Citation please.

Am I the only one who Googles?

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

Posted 8/24/2005 1:54 AM Updated 8/26/2005 2:49 PM

Story: Armstrong had six positives from 1999 tests

The reason I don't put citations up sometimes is I post comments from my cell phone and LGF is not geared (I think) to be able to do some functions easy from a smart phone like have multiple browsers open which would allow me to cut and past in the citations needed.

Everything I post here I can always back up if needed or a reader can look it up to verify. If I am wrong about a fact (opinions are opinions) then feel free to call me out on it.

I am an obsessive information junkie which is the only way I can explain how I remember the Lance Armstrong story about his positive drug test when I don't really care about him or his sport. But it is data and I am a data monger,

11 philosophus invidius  Mon, Aug 27, 2012 8:24:50am

re: #9 Destro

Why is mentioning France anti-American for pete's sake!

I mentioned the French team because they were the first (or the most vocal) to claim Armstrong doped. Hence, my statement.

You are the one who is making it a nation vs. nation issue and trolling for a reaction. This issue is about cycling, the doping authorities, and Lance. Lance's Tour team was not "the American team." This is not the Olympics. Just look at the list of personnel: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

So, yes, to make it an issue of national character is nationalistic and Anti-American.

Mentioning France obviously isn't anti-American, but it is part of your trolling strategy.

12 Destro  Mon, Aug 27, 2012 10:01:49am

re: #11 philosophus invidius

You are the one who is making it a nation vs. nation issue and trolling for a reaction. This issue is about cycling, the doping authorities, and Lance. Lance's Tour team was not "the American team." This is not the Olympics. Just look at the list of personnel: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

So, yes, to make it an issue of national character is nationalistic and Anti-American.

Mentioning France obviously isn't anti-American, but it is part of your trolling strategy.

Lance's team was the US POST OFFICE TEAM for pete's sake. That can be called the US team without it being a sign of pitting the USA vs France.

Armstrong's team was sold to the public as the US team.

How is this trolling to mention it? - especially since Lance's defenders attacked the French for being sore an American won.

Image: USPS_Team.jpg

13 philosophus invidius  Mon, Aug 27, 2012 11:00:40am

re: #12 Destro

Armstrong's team was sold to the public as the US team.
How is this trolling to mention it? - especially since Lance's defenders attacked the French for being sore an American won.

I say you are trolling because you are purposely trying to taunt and anger (what you imagine to be) Lance's nationalistic supporters by suggesting that there is something AMERICAN about his cheating and that the FRENCH are vindicated against the evil empire. But putting things that way is just the mirror image of the nationalism (and anti-French sentiment) you rightly deplore.

14 Flavia  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:38:54am

re: #10 Destro

Am I the only one who Googles?

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

Weirdly misleading headline, given the meat of the story:

" The lab did not identify the samples as being from Armstrong, and the testing was done with assurances that identification of the samples would be confidential and not used for doping enforcement. But L'Equipe reporters matched the samples' identification numbers in the lab report with information Armstrong released to French judicial investigators in a 2000 doping probe.

Armstrong has been at odds with French doping officials and media since his 1999 win, but he never has been linked to a positive test, a point he emphasized in his prepared rebuttal.

"The paper even admits in its own article that the science in question here is faulty and that I have no way to defend myself," Armstrong said in a statement released late Monday night. "They state: 'There will therefore be no counter-exam nor regulatory prosecutions, in a strict sense, since defendant's rights cannot be respected.' I will simply restate what I have said many times: I have never taken performance-enhancing drugs."

Based on the information published byL'Equipe, it is unlikely a legal result of positive can be determined for the 1999 urine samples from Armstrong. When blood and urine samples are processed for testing, the fluids are separated into two batches: A and B. The standard method for verifying a positive doping result requires that the A sample be tested first; if that is positive, the B sample then is tested. Positives cannot be declared unless both A and B samples are positive."

15 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:12:45pm

re: #14 Flavia

Weirdly misleading headline, given the meat of the story:

Like I said, suspicious and that has haunted him ever since. Add to that eyewitness testimony suddenly Lance is not looking dope free.


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