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1 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 4:52:32am

Harsh, but correct. And it smacks down the bullshit video "war on Music" posted here very effective. Upding.

2 Aye Pod  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 6:38:50am

Since we're digging up stuff from 2004, here's another blast from the past:

US Embassy accuses J’Post of publishing ''hateful incitement''
Date posted: March 06, 2004


The US Embassy condemned the Jerusalem Post in a letter to the editor on Wednesday, saying an editorial written about the first anniversary of Rachel Corrie’s death, was “nothing less than a hateful incitement”.

3 alinuxguru  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:15:45am

Corrie was a terrorist sympathizer working for an organization dedicated to the promulgation of terrorism. She is no better than people of the Friends of New Germany. Yes, there. I went there. I went all Godwin up in this s&1t.

4 Locker  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 8:42:18am

So it's ok that she was run over by a bulldozer.

You guys are assholes.

5 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:02:02am

re: #4 Locker

So it's ok that she was run over by a bulldozer.

You guys are assholes.

It's not OK. But it was a PR coup for ISM, who sent her harm's way.

6 Aye Pod  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 10:56:42am

re: #4 Locker

So it's ok that she was run over by a bulldozer.

You guys are assholes.

Rachel Corrie appears to have been another idealistic youngster motivated by empathy for those she perceived to be the underdog. Wingnuts have been taking overt pleasure in her death ever since; they're not going to tolerate any view of her that doesn't make her out to be a hateful 'nazi', all about the terrorism and killing etc.

It's just another example of how dehumanising one's enemy is a vital step towards killing them (or celebrating their death). It's hard to see how there can be peace in this situation unless both sides turn away from the extremists who encourage those sort of views.

7 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 11:17:22am

re: #6 Aye Pod

Rachel Corrie appears to have been another idealistic youngster motivated by empathy for those she perceived to be the underdog. Wingnuts have been taking overt pleasure in her death ever since; they're not going to tolerate any view of her that doesn't make her out to be a hateful 'nazi', all about the terrorism and killing etc.

It's just another example of how dehumanising one's enemy is a vital step towards killing them (or celebrating their death). It's hard to see how there can be peace in this situation unless both sides turn away from the extremists who encourage those sort of views.

Following Corrie's accidental death she was deliberately and and aggressively marketed as a martyr, murdered by the evil IDF. This marketing included books, plays, ships named for her...her name became a rallying cry for the same people who taught her their warped version of history and their twisted version of 'peace activism', and encouraged her to play chicken with bulldozers in the brush.

She was undoubtedly an idealist, but if she wanted to help the Palestinian people, she chose a (fatally) bad group to pin her hopes on. That's about as kind as I can be. Dreadful judgment and the arrogance of youth should not be a death sentence, but they sometimes are.

About the ISM, I won't be kind. They are horrible people.

8 CuriousLurker  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 12:29:29pm

re: #7 SanFranciscoZionist

Following Corrie's accidental death she was deliberately and and aggressively marketed as a martyr, murdered by the evil IDF. This marketing included books, plays, ships named for her...her name became a rallying cry for the same people who taught her their warped version of history and their twisted version of 'peace activism', and encouraged her to play chicken with bulldozers in the brush.

She was undoubtedly an idealist, but if she wanted to help the Palestinian people, she chose a (fatally) bad group to pin her hopes on. That's about as kind as I can be. Dreadful judgment and the arrogance of youth should not be a death sentence, but they sometimes are.

About the ISM, I won't be kind. They are horrible people.

I can't speak for the others, but the viciousness with which this young woman is attacked in death is shocking to me. She was young, in way over her head, and made some very bad choices. She paid with her life.

Yet that doesn't seem to be sufficient punishment—her name is dragged out and she is scorned & demonized again and again with a fervor I usually see reserved only for the most notoriously brutal terrorists.

Why? It makes no sense to me. It seems way out of proportion. You mentioned martyrdom & marketing—is that it? Has the marketing campaign been extremely successful, so successful that an especially vicious & dehumanizing response is required to counteract its effectiveness? Because that's the only thing that would make the level of venom directed at her seem even remotely "logical" to me.

9 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 12:46:48pm

re: #4 Locker

So it's ok that she was run over by a bulldozer.

You guys are assholes.

It is NOT ok. It WAS a tragic event, but to use this horrible way to die as a means to unfairly demonize Israel is not acceptable. It is pure deceit.

And dear Locker....FUCK YOU for your post. Seriously.

10 CuriousLurker  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 12:57:55pm

re: #9 Eclectic Infidel

It WAS a tragic event, but to use this horrible way to die as a means to unfairly demonize Israel is not acceptable. It is pure deceit.

So you validate my point and then down-ding me for making it? Interesting.

11 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:06:57pm

re: #10 CuriousLurker

So you validate my point and then down-ding me for making it? Interesting.

I just don't find you to be all that sincere.

12 Aye Pod  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:07:53pm

re: #7 SanFranciscoZionist

Following Corrie's accidental death she was deliberately and and aggressively marketed as a martyr, murdered by the evil IDF. This marketing included books, plays, ships named for her...her name became a rallying cry for the same people who taught her their warped version of history and their twisted version of 'peace activism', and encouraged her to play chicken with bulldozers in the brush.

She was undoubtedly an idealist, but if she wanted to help the Palestinian people, she chose a (fatally) bad group to pin her hopes on. That's about as kind as I can be. Dreadful judgment and the arrogance of youth should not be a death sentence, but they sometimes are.

About the ISM, I won't be kind. They are horrible people.

Opening a can of sardines with a rusty tin opener can be a death sentence.

The creepy gloating of extremists and 'Israel supporting' wingnuts over the death of a naive person is what I remember from the last 8 years.

13 The Left  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:11:39pm

re: #11 Eclectic Infidel

I just don't find you to be all that sincere.

Why on earth would you say that?

you may disagree with her, you may downding her because on balance you disagreed more with her post than you agreed with it-- but why would you accuse her of insincerity?

14 CuriousLurker  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:16:12pm

re: #11 Eclectic Infidel

I just don't find you to be all that sincere.

Ah, right—taqiyya! Odd considering the offer you made a little over year ago. Looks like my intuition telling me to decline was spot on.

15 The Left  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:17:11pm

re: #14 CuriousLurker

Ah, right—taqiyya! Odd considering the offer you made a little over year ago. Looks like my intuition telling me to decline was spot on.

Whoa that sounds like a story...

16 Aye Pod  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:18:16pm

re: #9 Eclectic Infidel

It is NOT ok. It WAS a tragic event, but to use this horrible way to die as a means to unfairly demonize Israel is not acceptable. It is pure deceit.

And dear Locker....FUCK YOU for your post. Seriously.

We're not talking about demonising Israel, we're talking about demonising a dead 23 year old girl whose views were not given the chance to evolve.

17 Aye Pod  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:26:12pm

re: #14 CuriousLurker

Ah, right—taqiyya! Odd considering the offer you made a little over year ago. Looks like my intuition telling me to decline was spot on.

I was wondering what E.Infidel (not to be confused with E.Coli, an entirely different poster) meant by that - I think you nailed it.

18 CuriousLurker  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:29:43pm

re: #17 Aye Pod

I figure that's about the only thing it could be since most everyone here knows I tend to wield my sincerity like a blunt instrument most of the time, heh.

19 miclaine  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:32:41pm

re: #16 Aye Pod

We're not talking about demonising Israel, we're talking about demonising a dead 23 year old girl whose views were not given the chance to evolve.

Her death, however unfortunate, IS being used to demonize Israel...If not for the ISM thrusting her amidst conflict about which she completely had the wool pulled over her eyes (if one wants to assume total innocence) she would be alive and presumably thriving and no one would be disparaging her name. That she died, in circumstances about which none of us can be absolutely certain, and is being foisted upon the world as a martyr/hero of the Palestinian cause is the sole reason we hear about her today.

20 wrenchwench  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:32:47pm

re: #18 CuriousLurker

I figure that's about the only thing it could be since most everyone here knows I tend to wield my sincerity like a blunt instrument most of the time, heh.

21 The Left  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:32:56pm

re: #18 CuriousLurker

I figure that's about the only thing it could be since most everyone here knows I tend to wield my sincerity like a blunt instrument most of the time, heh.

I still have no idea what you're talking about but if it's taqiyyah I know that means you'd lie about what taqiyyah is. //

22 CuriousLurker  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:35:00pm

re: #21 The Left

I still have no idea what you're talking about but if it's taqiyyah I know that means you'd lie about what taqiyyah is. //

Exactly! LOL

23 Aye Pod  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:40:21pm

re: #2 Aye Pod

Since we're digging up stuff from 2004, here's another blast from the past:

US Embassy accuses J’Post of publishing ''hateful incitement''
Date posted: March 06, 2004

The US Embassy condemned the Jerusalem Post in a letter to the editor on Wednesday, saying an editorial written about the first anniversary of Rachel Corrie’s death, was “nothing less than a hateful incitement”.

Note to Mickey - I hope you realise that I posted this in opposition to the Rachel Corrie bashing, not in support of it.

24 The Left  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:42:01pm

re: #22 CuriousLurker

Exactly! LOL

just teasing! But I know it really isn't funny because a lot of freaks really do think that way about taqiyyah-- it's a license to lie, they think. Anyway that was partly why I was angry when someone accused you of insincerity.

25 Aye Pod  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:51:19pm

re: #19 miclaine

Her death, however unfortunate, IS being used to demonize Israel...If not for the ISM thrusting her amidst conflict about which she completely had the wool pulled over her eyes (if one wants to assume total innocence) she would be alive and presumably thriving and no one would be disparaging her name. That she died, in circumstances about which none of us can be absolutely certain, and is being foisted upon the world as a martyr/hero of the Palestinian cause is the sole reason we hear about her today.

Just to point out, the ISM have a code of non-violence which Rachel Corrie can hardly be accused of violating. Don't want your enemy to have martyr/heroes? Don't crush non-violently protesting young girls under bulldozers and then gloat about it for years and years and years.

26 CuriousLurker  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:52:22pm

re: #24 The Left

just teasing! But I know it really isn't funny because a lot of freaks really do think that way about taqiyyah-- it's a license to lie, they think. Anyway that was partly why I was angry when someone accused you of insincerity.

I've learned to let the standard suspicions & insults roll off of me like water off the back of a duck. I've also resigned myself to the fact that there are some people who are going to believe the worst about me no matter what I say or do. There's nothing I can do about it because it's not about me, it's about them.

I appreciate you taking a stand on principle though—thank you for that.

27 The Left  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 1:55:08pm

re: #26 CuriousLurker

I've learned to let the standard suspicions & insults roll off of me like water off the back of a duck. I've also resigned myself to the fact that there are some people who are going to believe the worst about me no matter what I say or do. There's nothing I can do about it because it's not about me, it's about them.

I appreciate you taking a stand on principle though—thank you for that.

No worries-- every stand I take is on principle and I'm used to the downdings. :) You're welcome.

28 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 2:04:22pm

re: #11 Eclectic Infidel

Get fucked.

KTHXBYE

29 The Left  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 2:06:30pm

I still wonder why no one else has mentioned the 2004 US embassy condemnation of this piece. Prolly cos it's that nasty Clinton Obama random Democrat administration.

30 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 3:36:16pm

re: #19 miclaine

No, the name really is brought up with relish by nasty people, who are glad that she died because they see what she was doing as deserving of it.

She's brought up as a martyr, and a righteous kill, both.

31 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 3:36:56pm

re: #11 Eclectic Infidel

I just don't find you to be all that sincere.

Hopefully you're a decent enough person to eventually regret saying that.

That's about as nice as I can be about that bullshit.

32 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 4:16:38pm

re: #16 Aye Pod

We're not talking about demonising Israel, we're talking about demonising a dead 23 year old girl whose views were not given the chance to evolve.

Israel is not to blame for her demise, however.

33 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 4:17:08pm

re: #31 Obdicut

Hopefully you're a decent enough person to eventually regret saying that.

That's about as nice as I can be about that bullshit.

Oh please.

The drama....it burns.

34 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 4:39:30pm

re: #33 Eclectic Infidel

No drama. If you can make an argument for why CuriousLurker isn't sincere, do so. Otherwise, you're just paying at being psychic across TCP/IP, which is stupid.

35 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 4:42:41pm

re: #32 Eclectic Infidel

Israel is not to blame for her demise, however.

Israel wouldn't be to blame for her demise even if someone had deliberately killed her. Collective guilt is bullshit. She is a sad casualty among many other sad casualties. All of the deaths are regrettable; some only because they show how much a life went off the rails into hatred. But every death like this is sad because it ends any chance of growth or redemption.

36 Gus  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 4:49:50pm

Rachel Corrie is dead and gone forever. None of this and most of the fallout has little if anything to do with her accidental death due to her own negligence. This has everything to do with IMS propaganda to use this unfortunate incident as a means of discrediting Israel around the world. I consider myself a critic of Israel. I find the settlements most troubling and should cease. However, I will not side, apologize, or even remotely think about siding with those enemies of Israel that have chosen to use Rachel Corries accidental death as a means towards the destruction of Israel.

37 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 4:50:54pm

re: #36 Gus

It's also cynically exploitative on the part of those who promote this. Rachel Corrie would not get the same amount of attention on this issue if she wasn't a white Westerner.

38 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 4:50:54pm

re: #7 SanFranciscoZionist

Following Corrie's accidental death she was deliberately and and aggressively marketed as a martyr, murdered by the evil IDF. This marketing included books, plays, ships named for her...her name became a rallying cry for the same people who taught her their warped version of history and their twisted version of 'peace activism', and encouraged her to play chicken with bulldozers in the brush.

She was undoubtedly an idealist, but if she wanted to help the Palestinian people, she chose a (fatally) bad group to pin her hopes on. That's about as kind as I can be. Dreadful judgment and the arrogance of youth should not be a death sentence, but they sometimes are.

About the ISM, I won't be kind. They are horrible people.

Other than bolding one sentence to emphasize it, I find I cannot improve on SFZ's post.

39 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 4:58:41pm

re: #34 Obdicut

No drama. If you can make an argument for why CuriousLurker isn't sincere, do so. Otherwise, you're just paying at being psychic across TCP/IP, which is stupid.

I'm not obligated to make such an argument.

40 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 5:00:38pm

re: #39 Eclectic Infidel

I'm not obligated to make such an argument.

Nope. But since you don't, you just look like an asshole casting aspersions based on nothing at all.

And the article is in severely bad taste. Let those who consider a martyr continue to exploit her. That's on them. But ironically thanking her is just creepy.

41 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 5:01:47pm

re: #39 Eclectic Infidel

I'm not obligated to make such an argument.

No, but other people can fault for failing to make one. Calling someone insincere and then failing to explain why you think them to be so gives an impression that you were just lazily flinging an insult.

42 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 5:02:25pm

re: #40 Obdicut

Nope. But since you don't, you just look like an asshole casting aspersions based on nothing at all.

And the article is in severely bad taste. Let those who consider a martyr continue to exploit her. That's on them. But ironically thanking her is just creepy.

You're quite the sensitive flower.

43 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 5:06:14pm

re: #42 Eclectic Infidel

You're quite the sensitive flower.

Nice! Pointless personal attacks definitely make you seem like the reasonable party here.

Do you understand the point I'm making, or is your only engagement on this now to snipe at people and cast aspersions as to motivation?

She's cynically exploited by Hamas and many anti-Israel groups. This article goes far beyond pointing that out, but repeatedly 'thanks' Rachel Corrie in a ludicrously macabre fashion. Rachel Corrie was not causative. She was not an important person. The article is ghoulishly sharing in the over-emphasis on her.

44 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 5:08:01pm

re: #42 Eclectic Infidel

Don't be an ass.

45 miclaine  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 5:45:13pm

re: #25 Aye Pod

Just to point out, the ISM have a code of non-violence which Rachel Corrie can hardly be accused of violating. Don't want your enemy to have martyr/heroes? Don't crush non-violently protesting young girls under bulldozers and then gloat about it for years and years and years.

Don't want to belabor the point but no one (that I am aware of other than the ISMers) is gloating or broadcasting about her death. A word of advice - don't want to die? Stay out of the way of bulldozers.

46 Destro  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:35:57pm

re: #12 Aye Pod

Opening a can of sardines with a rusty tin opener can be a death sentence.

The creepy gloating of extremists and 'Israel supporting' wingnuts over the death of a naive person is what I remember from the last 8 years.

They have to dehumanize her because there is real fear of sympathy being built for Rachel Corrie against Israel's policy because she is an American and - you know - not a swarthy Ah-rab.

47 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 7:36:13pm

re: #45 miclaine

A word of advice - don't want to die? Stay out of the way of bulldozers.

Especially when they're driven by sleep deprived alcoholics with little training:

On May 31, 2002 the Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharonot published an interview with Moshe Nissim, nicknamed "Kurdi Bear", a D-9 operator who took part in the battle. Nissim said he had driven his D-9 for seventy-five hours straight, drinking whiskey to avoid fatigue, and that apart from a two-hour training before the battle, he had no prior experience in driving a bulldozer.

What happened to Corrie was an accident, but the narrative of glib disregard for professionalism was already previously established in the Kurdi Bear interview. No punishment was handed down to his unit commanders for allowing him to operate in that condition, instead the unit received commendations for their actions in Jenin. That was honestly baffling and at the time formed a good part of the reason there was so much suspicion regarding the circumstances of her death.

48 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:09:59pm

re: #12 Aye Pod

Opening a can of sardines with a rusty tin opener can be a death sentence.

The creepy gloating of extremists and 'Israel supporting' wingnuts over the death of a naive person is what I remember from the last 8 years.

I remember some other things. Which I have mentioned.

49 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:12:13pm

re: #25 Aye Pod

Just to point out, the ISM have a code of non-violence which Rachel Corrie can hardly be accused of violating. Don't want your enemy to have martyr/heroes? Don't crush non-violently protesting young girls under bulldozers and then gloat about it for years and years and years.

Precisely who is gloating? The wingnuts did not drive the bulldozer. Who in the IDF do you see as gloating over this death?

50 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 1, 2012 9:17:54pm

re: #49 SanFranciscoZionist

The people who are gloating are not the ones who were in any way associated with the act. There are people who are glad for her death because they can use her as a martyr and there are people who are glad for her death because they feel that she allied herself with terrorists and deserved death. The difference is that the former group includes the people who helped her along the path to her death.

It's all ridiculously ugly and stupid.

51 sffilk  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 4:43:30am

IMHO, Rachel Corrie was acting as an anti-American, anti-Jewish person aiding and abetting terrorists. She tried to block a bulldozer from destroying a tunnel used to send weaponry to those who call for the destruction of the Jewish state - something that's been going on since 1948. No, she shouldn't have been there, being a rabble rouser getting people to yell things like "death to America" and "death to Israel" and "death to Jews." She paid the price for being persuaded by a group devoted to the destruction of Israel to try to stop a bulldozer that was trying to ensure that Jewish lives wouldn't be taken. Her actions were not going to pave way for peace in the Middle East - they were going to pave way for a judenrein Middle East. She didn't want to know about that. Plain and simple.

52 Bob Levin  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 1:01:31pm

re: #8 CuriousLurker

First I think we would have to untangle whether we are talking about Rachel Corrie the person or Rachel Corrie the symbol. I suspect that the topic is about Rachel Corrie the symbol. She is a symbol for several things. This would be one discussion, the nature of what she symbolizes.

Does she, as a person, deserve to be "demonized again and again with a fervor I usually see reserved only for the most notoriously brutal terrorists?"

No, but what about the almost universally acknowledged symbol of Rachel Corrie? The act of turning someone into a symbol is without question dehumanizing--but this has happened everywhere.

What is your interpretation of this symbol? You can't 'un-symbolize' her anymore than you can un-ring a bell.

53 Buck  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 2:28:22pm

I don't know anyone who is glad for her death. However I do know people who would defend Israel from being made to look guilty in her death.

There is a huge difference.

54 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 2:50:32pm

re: #52 Bob Levin

You can refuse to use the symbol. Which would be the decent thing to do.

55 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 3:41:54pm

re: #52 Bob Levin

First I think we would have to untangle whether we are talking about Rachel Corrie the person or Rachel Corrie the symbol. I suspect that the topic is about Rachel Corrie the symbol. She is a symbol for several things. This would be one discussion, the nature of what she symbolizes.

Does she, as a person, deserve to be "demonized again and again with a fervor I usually see reserved only for the most notoriously brutal terrorists?"

No, but what about the almost universally acknowledged symbol of Rachel Corrie? The act of turning someone into a symbol is without question dehumanizing--but this has happened everywhere.

What is your interpretation of this symbol? You can't 'un-symbolize' her anymore than you can un-ring a bell.

I have difficulty separating Rachel Corrie the person from Rachel Corrie the symbol. It's not as if she was a Saddam Hussein, a Muammar Qaddafi, or an Osama bin Laden who had spent a lifetime terrorizing & brutalizing people.

If I had to choose the latter, then my interpretation would be that she symbolizes the dehumanization of Israelis & Palestinians that has resulted from a festering, dysfunctional, decades-long conflict. She symbolizes youth poisoned & twisted by a steady diet of hateful propaganda. She symbolizes the hope & bright potential of yet another generation snuffed out by the dark forces of "realpolitik", corruption, cynicism, and third-party jockeying for national interests. Most of all, she symbolizes the futility of believing that continuing on the current path will lead to anything other than more death & suffering for everyone involved.

56 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 7:15:45pm

re: #52 Bob Levin

P.S. The tussle over what Rachel Corrie stands for as a symbol also reminds me of the the infant Solomon (a.s.) threatened to split in half to settle the dispute between the two women fighting over who he belonged to.

57 Bob Levin  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:13:13pm

re: #55 CuriousLurker

If I had to choose the latter, then my interpretation would be that she symbolizes the dehumanization of Israelis & Palestinians that has resulted from a festering, dysfunctional, decades-long conflict. She symbolizes youth poisoned & twisted by a steady diet of hateful propaganda. She symbolizes the hope & bright potential of yet another generation snuffed out by the dark forces of "realpolitik", corruption, cynicism, and third-party jockeying for national interests. Most of all, she symbolizes the futility of believing that continuing on the current path will lead to anything other than more death & suffering for everyone involved.

Okay, maybe it's possible to un-ring a bell. You've successfully un-symbolized her. That's impressive, not kidding.

Perhaps I should ask, in popular culture, what does the symbol of Rachel Corrie mean? And do you sense any waves of culture attempting to do what you've just done here?

58 Bob Levin  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:19:57pm

re: #56 CuriousLurker

You mean the tug-of-war between the real mother and the faux mother? I can see the analogy being of someone in the court watching the two women in an escalating fight. However, I do not see the issue itself as being similar to the story of Solomon. In other words, I do not see Israel or the Jewish people trying to claim the symbol as their own.

59 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sun, Sep 2, 2012 9:42:37pm

re: #56 CuriousLurker

P.S. The tussle over what Rachel Corrie stands for as a symbol also reminds me of the the infant Solomon (a.s.) threatened to split in half to settle the dispute between the two women fighting over who he belonged to.

I've always thought that Solomon's choice was wise because it didn't matter whether the child ended up with the correct biological mother. Any woman who would say "cut the kid," should not have custody over anyone.

60 Sophia77  Mon, Sep 3, 2012 12:46:29pm

People seem to have forgotten the Intifada. This was the horrible backdrop of Corrie's death.

People need to internalize what was happening inside of Israel - thousands of people were killed and maimed in bombings, civilians deliberately targeted.

You can claim the ISM is nonviolent all you wish but they were implicitly defending a violent movement, one which walked away from compromise and peace negotiations in favor of homicide bombings.

Also, attacking the bulldozer driver, who'd been working for days without rest, is just wrong. He couldn't have seen her in any case. I know people who've driven those things.

This was a wartime tragedy, period. I don't think Corrie should be demonized but she wasn't a saint either. There are photos of her burning and American flag with the Star of David drawn in place of our 5 pointed stars. She was burning this hybrid flag in front of impressionable little children.

It's time to stop this, stop violence, unfortunately for the people who died in the intifada and subsequently it's too late. It's too late for the bereaved, too late for the maimed.

Nevertheless people must try to move forward and reconcile, try to work together. The world as a whole is facing huge problems - overpopulation, global warming, entire species are crashing and cannot be replaced.

I think it's time to let Rachel Corrie rest in peace along with the hell of violence and hate.

61 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Sep 3, 2012 2:54:01pm

re: #60 Sophia77

The problem is that to be reconciled, you must have been at least somewhat conciled with the other party in the past, and the Palestinians never have been. Before conciliation can occur, they need to be willing to accept Israel's existence with its Jewish population intact. Until then, the violence will continue.

62 CuriousLurker  Mon, Sep 3, 2012 7:26:53pm

re: #57 Bob Levin

Okay, maybe it's possible to un-ring a bell. You've successfully un-symbolized her. That's impressive, not kidding.

I'm not sure how I managed to do that, but thanks.

Perhaps I should ask, in popular culture, what does the symbol of Rachel Corrie mean?

I don't pay much attention to popular culture, nor do I know a lot of the details of her story. I heard about it when it happened, but I didn't follow it closely. I really hadn't thought about it much until it came up here because I was well aware that it had been an especially hot button issue at LGF.

As SFZ said in her #7, Corrie seems to have been turned into an innocent martyr by the Palestinians and used to demonize the IDF. At the opposite end of the spectrum, she seems to be the demon, and the IDF the victim.

And do you sense any waves of culture attempting to do what you've just done here?

As I said, I'm not exactly sure what I did or how I did it as I was simply trying to express what she symbolized to me, so I have no idea.

63 CuriousLurker  Mon, Sep 3, 2012 7:42:41pm

re: #58 Bob Levin

You mean the tug-of-war between the real mother and the faux mother? I can see the analogy being of someone in the court watching the two women in an escalating fight. However, I do not see the issue itself as being similar to the story of Solomon. In other words, I do not see Israel or the Jewish people trying to claim the symbol as their own.

What I meant was closer to the first (bolded) part, however I assume Israel does have an interest in trying to control or counteract the Rachel Corrie as martyr narrative since it can be damaging and provides yet another rallying point around which to fire up emotions.

Actually, IMO the wider I-P struggle over the land, especially Jerusalem, is analogous to the story of the baby. On the surface at least—I'm sure the story has deeper layers of meaning than the most obvious one(s).

64 Bob Levin  Mon, Sep 3, 2012 9:02:03pm

re: #62 CuriousLurker

As SFZ said in her #7, Corrie seems to have been turned into an innocent martyr by the Palestinians and used to demonize the IDF.

This is accurate.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, she seems to be the demon, and the IDF the victim.

I wouldn't say this is the case. From where I stand, [because I don't see it as being on the other end of the spectrum.] people in general, Jews in particular, haven't quite figured out how to make an idea dissipate, like you said in #63.

The best idea thus far, is to contradict, and if that doesn't work, to vehemently contradict. Obviously, this method doesn't work. But people have a tendency to repeat even what they know will be unsuccessful when they lack alternatives. The idea is for this Rachel Corrie Knife to vanish.

However, we see ideas dissipate all of the time through a very mysterious natural process--much like our selves seem to go through a metamorphosis. For instance, I can't even remember what I felt like, what my sense of self was, when I was eight years old. More important, I don't remember when this notion vanished. It certainly wasn't when I turned nine.

My generation couldn't even conceive of what my parents' generation thought and felt--we might as well have grown up in different parts of the universe. In one generation, the universe changes. How is that? There weren't any groundbreaking scientific findings--and if there were, we wouldn't have known.

All of this points to the puzzle of consciousness--that it is still quite a puzzle, a Solomonic puzzle. To me, when it comes to solving this puzzle, religion is miles ahead of the secular world. However, this doesn't at all mean that we shouldn't continue to learn from the secular world. After all, Solomon would much rather have quietly waited for the DNA test results.

65 CuriousLurker  Mon, Sep 3, 2012 10:06:25pm

re: #64 Bob Levin

I wouldn't say this is the case. From where I stand, [because I don't see it as being on the other end of the spectrum.]

Just to quickly clarify before I drag my carcass off to sleep: When I say "the other end of the spectrum" or "conversely", "likewise", etc. with regard to the I-P situation my intent is not necessarily to indicate equivalence, but rather to refer to the person or persons on the other (collective) side whose job it is to deal with these situations.

IOW, a Kahanist would be morally equivalent (in my book) to a member of Hamas, whereas an IDF community liaison officer (or whoever deals with the PR side of these things) would most certainly not be. Nonetheless, in both cases I might say "the other side" or "the other end of the spectrum".

I realize that the situation is complex and that there is far more than one opinion or type of behavior per side, but sometimes I'm just too lazy or exasperated or confused to try to separate & enumerate each slippery, gossamer thread.

66 CuriousLurker  Tue, Sep 4, 2012 12:44:26pm

re: #57 Bob Levin

Perhaps I should ask, in popular culture, what does the symbol of Rachel Corrie mean?

After having had some time to reflect, I'm going to take a stab at what I think she may symbolize in pop culture, at least for many: The young idealist who was once only a common person, suddenly transformed into a heroic figure, a legend, by fearlessly standing up to an unjust establishment and losing her life in the process.

She was American, young, female, white, well educated, articulate, and brought up in a traditional two-parent middle class home in a relatively small town. For many Americans—and probably many Westerners in general—she was the quintessential girl next door. It's very easy for people to relate to her, to imagine their sister, niece, daughter, friend, or girlfriend in her place. Her parents are sympathetic as well—what parent can look at them without imagining the horrible pain of losing a child?

Seeing photos of her standing in front of a massive bulldozer is immediately reminiscent of the man who faced down the tank in Tienanmen Square. It's iconic. It's David and Goliath. Combined with her girl next door familiarity, that makes her an extremely powerful symbol. Remember, I'm not talking about moral equivalence here, I'm talking pure optics, emotional reaction to what is seen.

The ISM couldn't have been handed a better martyr if they'd special ordered one. I have no doubt that Ms. Corrie's death must have been viewed as a PR disaster of nightmarish proportions by the IDF/Israel.

Okay, I think I've exhausted this subject now.

67 Bob Levin  Tue, Sep 4, 2012 1:06:20pm

re: #66 CuriousLurker

Okay, let me do some exhausting now.

First, that is indeed the perception. People try to counter this perception with the facts of the ISM, trying to logically explain the connection between support for any of the many terrorist organizations of the West Bank with historically, the basest of human motivations. Jews try to reclaim the story of David and Goliath by pointing out that Fatah is simply a guerrilla front for the nations of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Iran--the same nations enamored with a conventional military assault on Israel in 1967. In other words, Israel is still David, the surrounding nations still unified on this front into Goliath.

Such arguments don't even make a dent. Surely, Jews think, we haven't been heard. So we repeat ourselves, with more vehemence next time. Still nothing.

And that's where we are. The same place we've always been, fighting the same battle--where facts, logic, and reason are tools that don't seem to work. For people embracing the Western worldview with both arms, this is indeed a frightening problem. The Western worldview is supposed to solve everything.


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