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1 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 1:21:27pm

If the threat of war keeps the bigoted, racist and genocidal regime of Iran off balance, I'm all for it.

Besides, as the NYT article denotes, there isn't really the split between Obama and Israel.

Must drive the Iranians crazy, not knowing which way is up.

2 darthstar  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 1:30:03pm

re: #1 researchok

I think it drives the GOP crazy, not knowing which way is up. If they're secretly hoping for a war which will kill tens of thousands of people, including US troops, just to gain control of the White House, then we're seriously fucked.

3 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 1:33:46pm

It all shows up in the satellite pictures, of the Iranians moving stuff, fortifying--like Sherlock Holmes in A Scandal in Bohemia. It forces the Iranians to show their cards.

4 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 1:33:55pm

re: #1 researchok

If the threat of war keeps the bigoted, racist and genocidal regime of Iran off balance, I'm all for it.

Besides, as the NYT article denotes, there isn't really the split between Obama and Israel.

Must drive the Iranians crazy, not knowing which way is up.

There isn't really the split between Obama and Israel - there seems to be a split between Obama and Netanyahu and Netanyahu is not Israel no matter what his ego may think. That you are OK with this strategy means you/Republicans have serious morality issues.

5 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 1:37:41pm

re: #4 Destro

What strategy?

6 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 4:51:14pm

re: #5 Bob Levin

It's a secret. But he knows.
//

7 War On Music  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 5:01:51pm

re: #5 Bob Levin

If I am reading him correctly, the strategy of equating support for Israel as support for Netanyahu and his far-right allies. That, and the strategy that Netanyahu is pursuing of a frenzied obsession with a preemptive war on Iran that Researchok seems to support (at least rhetorically).

What is needed is more Israelis standing up to Netanyahu to tell him that they will not die in his war of aggression, and a movement against Israels blood tax.

8 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 5:07:27pm

The Netanyahu strategy for getting Obama out and helping the GOP with a war on Iran as mentioned in the article.

9 War On Music  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 5:09:03pm
10 Curt  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 5:32:35pm

re: #8 Destro

The Netanyahu strategy for getting Obama out and helping the GOP with a war on Iran as mentioned in the article.

I guess the actually made threats by Iranian leadership, those in control in a dictatorial fashion, regarding the destruction of Israel has really nothing to do with it. Maybe Mad Dinner Jacket is really in league with Romney, so there can be a war, and he planned that oh...several years ago.....and is just keeping that plan on track.

Seriously, consider what Iran has publically proclaimed what they are working towards all these years, and look at it through that filter, not a super sekret GOP plan to begin a war...

11 Locker  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:00:55pm

re: #4 Destro

There isn't really the split between Obama and Israel - there seems to be a split between Obama and Netanyahu and Netanyahu is not Israel no matter what his ego may think. That you are OK with this strategy means you/Republicans have serious morality issues.

Ok so Destro... unlike the majority it seems that some of my thoughts may be similar to yours on lots of points you try to make. However, you're doing yourself more harm than good sometimes and this is a sincere comment which I think may assist.

See the quoted text above... everything was going well until your last sentence. When you start with the "This means This" type of sweeping personal attack you change your readers focus from your point to a strong reaction to this statement.

Not saying I never do it, Not saying you are a "bad boy" (or girl) for your paragraph structure. I know it's hard not to react when you feel strongly, believe me. I'm just trying to help you sharpen your point.

On a side note I can tell you that while researchok (or she) and I have lots of stuff we overlap on and a lot of stuff we don't... I have never, ever, ever felt that he had a "morality issue". Strong words.

12 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:05:44pm

re: #7 War On Music

the strategy of equating support for Israel as support for Netanyahu and his far-right allies.

I never felt that interpretation had an ounce of credence. However, the facts fall nicely into the idea that the war hoopla forces Iran to protect its secret facilities, which would show in satellite pictures--lots of activity in seemingly desolate areas of Iran. There are also many reports of Iranian computers being thoroughly infected with things that I will never comprehend.

13 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:07:24pm

re: #8 Destro

I know you like down dinging without comment.

I just wanted to make you feel at home.
//

14 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:13:28pm

re: #7 War On Music

What is needed is more Israelis standing up to Netanyahu to tell him that they will not die in his war of aggression, and a movement against Israels blood tax.

You may not know this about Israel, but pretty much everyone is agreed that the bedrock of the culture is Masada. And pretty much everyone sees Iran as an existential threat, among many existential threats.

15 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:13:48pm

re: #11 Locker

On a side note I can tell you that while researchok (or she) and I have lots of stuff we overlap on and a lot of stuff we don't... I have never, ever, ever felt that he had a "morality issue". Strong words.

Absolutely true!

The same applies here. There have been times when some ugly assertions have been made about your beliefs (I don't know if you recall) but I believe they were undeserved and said so.

We do disagree on much but I do suspect we agree on more. That's why I read your posts- even if we disagree there is usually a point or two I can take back and consider.

I believe our disagreements stem not so much from profound ideological differences but rather on the 'how we get there' debate.

And if anyone gets on your ass again for no reason, I'll be there.

For a test drive in the new VW.
/

16 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:15:11pm

re: #11 Locker

Right. Congrats on the car.

17 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:16:18pm

re: #7 War On Music

What is needed is more Israelis standing up to Netanyahu to tell him that they will not die in his war of aggression, and a movement against Israels blood tax.

No, what is needed are more Iranians to stand up against the regime that kills their own.

It isn't Israel denying one Holocaust while promising another.

It isn't Israel that killed Neda Soltan.

18 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:17:50pm

re: #7 War On Music

Where have I suggested a preemptive attack on Iran? It isn't as if we've had a series of exchanges.

So, please, show me where I suggested such an attack.

Or was that statement deliberately...in error?

19 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:22:49pm

re: #11 Locker

I feel anyone who cheers on war is immoral.

20 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:23:23pm

re: #19 Destro

Like your support of Hamas and other terrorists?

And your support of Iran and their stated racist, bigoted and genocidal goals?

21 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:24:56pm

re: #20 researchok

You post like a troll and get treated like a troll. Let me know where I said I support Hamas, etc oh and stop beating your wife.

22 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:27:42pm

re: #21 Destro

You are the troll today- and every day, really. Anyone who is says he's 'proud to have no Muslim friends' pretty much speaks for itself.

You make me laugh.

Nice try at pivot and attack, though.

Maybe someday you'll get that to work for you.

23 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:29:34pm

...

24 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:30:16pm

re: #23 researchok

Destro, maybe you can help out- where exactly did I propose war?

25 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:36:06pm

re: #24 researchok

See your attempt to defend Netanyahu @ #1.

26 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:39:22pm

re: #22 researchok

That's right weeks ago on here I wrote I don't pal around with any Muslims, a religous designation. I know and love plenty of atheists or secularists who happen to be from all parts of the world. Also, Muslims don't drink beer and I love the pub life. But what does my not having, wanting or seeking religious Muslim freinds have to do with this thread?

27 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:51:59pm

re: #19 Destro

I feel anyone who cheers on war is immoral.

You mean, like your approval of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan?

Please.

28 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:55:01pm

re: #25 Destro

You need to reread that.

29 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:55:39pm

A strike on Iran has been just a few months away for about five years now. Someday someone's going to get it right, maybe. Or maybe the grace of God and computer hackers lets us get off easy, and it never comes.

30 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:56:36pm

re: #27 SanFranciscoZionist

You mean, like your approval of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan?

Please.

Why are you and researchok, liars? I said Afghanistan and the world and the USA would have been better off if the USA did not aid the jihadis there. That is not the same thing as approving of the Soviet invasion (and it was not even an invasion. The Socialist govt of Afghanistan asked for military help to deal with an insurgency against their rule by Pashtuns).

I mean you and your buddy are perverse at this.

31 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:56:53pm

re: #26 Destro

No, you wrote about how 'Proud you are' in having no Muslim friends.

I can get the quote now or wait a bit.

32 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 6:58:06pm

re: #30 Destro

Why do you people lie?

LOL- now you're the victim?

I have an idea- why don't you document the lies we've told and wer can document the lies you have told.

OK with you?

33 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:00:21pm

re: #27 SanFranciscoZionist

He doesn't remember.

34 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:02:02pm

re: #31 researchok

Yea, so what? I guess that proves what? I hate Muslims so much I don't want Israel to bomb them?

35 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:05:09pm

re: #34 Destro

Skip the pivot and attack let's get back the the issue that will define this situation.

I have an idea- why don't you document the lies we've told and we can document the lies you have told.

OK with you?

As you can see, this is getting very complicated for you.

36 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:12:13pm

re: #35 researchok

You are the one who pivots and attacks - bringing up stuff from other threads.

So what is your point about me not having or wanting Muslim pals? That I want to leave them in peace? Wow. I hate Muslims so much I want Netanyahu to NOT bomb them in order to help Romney win an election?

Was that your point?

You on the other hand say you are respectful of Muslims yet you cheerlead for Muslims to be bombed by Netanyahu.

I guess it's a religion thing. I don't have religion so I don't get this morality of yours.

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:15:23pm

re: #30 Destro

Why are you and researchok, liars? I said Afghanistan and the world and the USA would have been better off if the USA did not aid the jihadis there. That is not the same thing as approving of the Soviet invasion (and it was not even an invasion. The Socialist govt of Afghanistan asked for military help to deal with an insurgency against their rule by Pashtuns).

I mean you and your buddy are perverse at this.

Hmmm. I recall something about how Afghanistan would have been better off under 'secular Soviet rule'.

You're not impressing me.

38 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:21:06pm

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist

Hmmm. I recall something about how Afghanistan would have been better off under 'secular Soviet rule'.

You're not impressing me.

Afghanistan would have been better off under Soviet rule in the long run compared to the Pakistan backed Taliban rule. No al-Qaeda in Afhghanistan and no 9/11 in that alternate future.

Your lame attempt to shill for Netanyahu is still unimpressive.

39 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:24:09pm

re: #36 Destro

Firstly, you accused myself and SFZ of being dishonest and lying.

Secondly, referencing what you wrote previously is a very good way to determine your credibility.

Thirdly, the fact is you have repeatedly made clear your feelings of disdain (and I'm being polite) towards religious people speaks volumes. Even Curious Lurker, who is probably has forgotten more about Islam (the real Islam, not the version you seem to reference) and who is one of the more decent band finer people on this board made clear her contempt for your so called 'progressive' ideals. It takes a lot to piss her off and she doesn't miss much.

Now, as for other lie, you said I am cheerleader for an attack on Iran. Really? Man up and show me where I said that. Be a man, stand by your words. Show some integrity.

I have never called for an attack on Iran and infact, I have more sympathy for the people you claim repulse you.

I have no compulsion calling you a liar because that is precisely what you are.

And everyone reading this by now knows that truth.

40 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:29:27pm

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist

That he would refer to you (and others) as a 'liar' is most interesting.

As a teacher I know you would have taken more than a couple of courses in psychology s that you might be able to identify and deal with various pathological behaviors.

Textbook, you know?

I probably sound like a broken records, but when attacked you, CL and Alouette (and in the manner he did) the bells went off.

There is a book in here somewhere.

Seriously.

41 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:33:22pm

In my humble opinion. yes, I consider you a liar and a war monger.

See [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And as for my disdain for religion, all I have to say is keep your superstitions at home.

42 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:34:48pm

re: #40 researchok

Teacher? That probably helps explain America's low ranking in education around the world.

43 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:35:16pm

Do you ever not lie?

Are you even capable of telling the truth?

That was not written by me, but was an opinion piece- and I al;so noted in the piece the other side of the argument.

Editor’s note: This article is one of two debating the necessity of an Israeli attack on Iran’s nuclear project. The other, by Robert Wexler, argues that “An Attack Might Be Necessary, but Not Yet.”

Can you ever tell the truth?

44 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:37:06pm

re: #42 Destro

SFZ is probably one of the better teachers you'll ever run into.

Be that as it may, your pathologies are pretty self evident.

Not just to me.

45 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:38:41pm

re: #42 Destro

How about this idea I proposed earlier?

I have an idea- why don't you document the lies we've told and we can document the lies you have told.

OK with you?

As you can see, this is getting very complicated for you.

46 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:40:34pm

I have come a long way in my political evolution and worldview- not unlike others here.

And ostensibly, like yourself

I suggest you take a long hard look in the mirror and maybe consider other options.

47 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:42:06pm

re: #38 Destro

Insulting SFZ will get you downdinged every time. She's a good lady, Destro; Treat her with respect.

48 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:43:44pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

He can't help himself.

He really, really can't.

49 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:44:08pm

re: #42 Destro

Researchok, you can start calling Destro "professor" again after than education related attack on SFZ.

50 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:44:13pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

And yet she lied about what I said.

51 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:45:30pm

re: #50 Destro

No sir, she did not. I've been on this blog for almost 5 years now and I have never seen SanFranciscoZionist tell a lie.

52 Locker  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:45:55pm

Destro I do think you have something to offer. But you have to decide if you care more about your issues and opinions or about your ego. Once again, I feel that I can say this because I have the exact same problem.

Just know that if you back off on the direct attacks, just a bit, and steer just a tiny bit towards talking about specific issues, you'll have a lot better conversations, make some friends and get more of your points across for consideration.

Have a beer and breathe before you flounce. I would miss you... a bit.

53 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:46:38pm

re: #51 Dark_Falcon

She said I said I supported the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan when all I said is we should not have helped the jihadis to fight them.

54 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:47:29pm

re: #50 Destro

You really are not in any position to call anyone else out in lie.

Ever.

Just a few moments ago you ied about me. Again.

I know you can't help yourself but you might think about how your obsession looks to others.

55 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:48:31pm

re: #52 Locker

You know, I hope you can reach him.

Really. For lots of reasons.

56 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:50:02pm

re: #52 Locker

I must be missing something - they seem to flock to me to try and 'get me' and then lie about stuff I said in past threads.

It is not about ego for me. It is about my not abiding such tactics. And their animosity towards me does seem to be centered around countering my animosity to Romney ally Netanyahu. One of their buddies even called me a Klansman and worse. It is probably hard for me to back down when my Irish is up.

57 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:51:11pm

re: #53 Destro

But you had also said that Afghanistan would have been better under Soviet rule, which is the same as supporting the invasion in many people's eyes.

And as it relates to the Taliban, it should be noted that they did not come to power till years after the Soviet Union had departed Afghanistan. Back during the 80's the Taliban did not exist. They were created in the 1990's by Pakistan's ISI as a way to control Afghanistan.

58 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:53:25pm

re: #56 Destro

Nobody is trying to get you. This is a board- no one cares about you that much.

We are however pointing out your ...inconsistencies.

59 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:53:44pm

On a lighter note: Locker, SFZ, does the following depict the researchok/Destro feud?

Dualists

In a perpetual personal feud, Duelists generally don't menace anyone but each other, unless, of course, another Warrior foolishly gets between them. They may not even remember what started the fight, but not they cordially loathe one another and seize every to go at each other. When the other Warriors eventually weary of their endless kvetching the Duelists will be shouted down or Nanny will ban them. Even after getting the heave-ho from one forum, however, it is not unusual for them to seeking each other in other forums to renew their fight.

60 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:54:03pm

re: #56 Destro

LOLOL@Irish

61 Locker  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:54:05pm

re: #56 Destro

It's ok man I can relate to some of your feelings very strongly. Here's how it goes around here:

1. Most regulars have pets issues they discuss and pet peves the jump on.
2. People who you may think are buddies would be surprised to hear that, it just seems that way when you are new and "fighting alone".
3. Most people would rather talk than fight. However, when you are a natural fighter (like me) it's hard to learn a neutral tone. Regulars aren't likely to back down from a hard line, they'll just come at you harder.

If you are able to even try to adopt a neutral tone the people will work with you. It's quite possible that I'm considered to be the biggest asshole on this entire site but they will still (most of them) talk to me if I'm willing to talk as well.

It takes practice but as long as you don't flounce (get pissed and leave) or piss off Charles then you'll always get another go.

Peace man.

62 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:55:00pm

re: #57 Dark_Falcon

But you had also said that Afghanistan would have been better under Soviet rule, which is the same as supporting the invasion in many people's eyes.

And as it relates to the Taliban, it should be noted that they did not come to power till years after the Soviet Union had departed Afghanistan. Back during the 80's the Taliban did not exist. They were created in the 1990's by Pakistan's ISI as a way to control Afghanistan.

Pakistan's ISI was what it became thanks to a decade of American CIA help and Saudi money.

Afghanistan WOULD have been better under Soviet rule. The USSR would have fallen as it did (the Afghanistan war did not hasten the fall by much) and it would have left behind a Afghan regime that would look like one of the 'Stans. The 'Stans are not paradise or model democracies but they are not Afghanistan or Pakistani hell holes either.

63 Locker  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:55:28pm

P.S. I'm half Irish, half German. I like to fight... and other things...

64 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:56:58pm

re: #63 Locker

Actually, you and Jimmah and couple of others here I'd like to have a beer with.

65 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 7:57:41pm

re: #62 Destro

You are wrong about the ISI. It was a manipulative organization with its own agenda long before the first Soviet Airborne flight crossed into Afghani airspace.

66 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:02:25pm

re: #65 Dark_Falcon

You are wrong about the ISI. It was a manipulative organization with its own agenda long before the first Soviet Airborne flight crossed into Afghani airspace.

The ISI were rank amatuers with little connections to Afghanistanis. But thanks to the pro jihad American policy they became the money and weapons source for the Afghani resistance.

The CIA grew the ISI to what it became. To me the ISI should have been targeted for destruction after 9/11 along with the Taliban but you know...This article is about a charge that Netanyahu is pushing a war with Iran to help Romney and we are now talking about Afghanistan thanks to Z's trolling.

67 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:03:52pm

re: #66 Destro

Your sources for the status of the ISI in the late 1970's?

68 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:05:37pm

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

The ISI lost its importance during the regime of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who was very critical of its role during the 1970 general elections, which triggered off the events leading to the partition of Pakistan and emergence of Bangladesh.

[Link: www.bharat-rakshak.com...]

69 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:13:23pm

re: #38 Destro

Afghanistan would have been better off under Soviet rule in the long run compared to the Pakistan backed Taliban rule. No al-Qaeda in Afhghanistan and no 9/11 in that alternate future.

Your lame attempt to shill for Netanyahu is still unimpressive.

I think Netanyahu is a schmuck. I wouldn't cross the street to shill for him, although I suppose kol yisrael arayvim zeh lazeh would mean I would be obligated to pee on him if he were on fire.

This doesn't make your postings any more intelligent, or any less obvious.

70 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:16:19pm

re: #50 Destro

And yet she lied about what I said.

I reported quite accurately what you said. If you want to qualify it, be my guest. But your taste in dictators has been made quite clear in multiple postings.

71 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:18:12pm

re: #59 Dark_Falcon

On a lighter note: Locker, SFZ, does the following depict the researchok/Destro feud?

Dualists

I think there's a personal aspect to that that's lacking here...Destro will attack anyone who challenges him. If he's focused on researchok, it's probably just because r. will continue to engage with him, and he gets more and more whipped up. It could be anyone.

72 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:19:18pm

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

Bingo.

73 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:20:59pm

re: #69 SanFranciscoZionist

I feel sorry for any Israeli PM, left or right.

Just look at the crackpots with whom you have to form a coalition.

74 Locker  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:21:36pm

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

I think there's a personal aspect to that that's lacking here...Destro will attack anyone who challenges him. If he's focused on researchok, it's probably just because r. will continue to engage with him, and he gets more and more whipped up. It could be anyone.

It's hard to come to LGF from a "normal" environment. You don't prove things to the opposition, you just shout at them and they shout at you. Here, people will actually engage with you and consider what you have to say. It's a lot harder.

It took me a long time to even start to realize that and act accordingly. I still fuck it up constantly. Hoping he'll make the adjustment.

75 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:28:50pm

re: #74 Locker

That's interesting- I don't see you as 'fucking up'

You may take a stand. a hard position. etc., but even if I disagree (and I do, plenty of times') there is usually something added for me to consider. So I'm all for that. Hell, I probably get more out of it than you do, notwithstanding my own beliefs (I've become far more centrist on many issues).

That is why I try to be pretty balanced in what I post- I realize most people just want to hear the choir and the party line but I know there are plenty here who see things the way I do. I try and post from both sides of the aisle, usually articles that make some good/provocative points. Agree or disagree, there is always clarification.

If you want reality you have to be open to seasons and the great outdoors.

76 Locker  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:33:13pm

re: #75 researchok

That's very nice of you to say. I fuck it up, specifically, by coming in combative. I don't mind taking an unpopular position but, based on my experience "out there" my expectation is to catch some heat so I'm primed to react.. in just the wrong way.

As a kid I was in the gifted class.. I also had the WORST grades of anyone ever in the program and I was on constant trouble for fighting. I felt smart and thought I had good ideas but when it came to defending them my nature was to fight verbally or physically rather than intellectually.

It's hard, even with total acceptance of the situation, to slow up and calm down enough to think it through. It's really.. REALLY hard.. but much more rewarding.

77 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:40:24pm

re: #76 Locker

All part of the mature cognitive process.

(I'm a behaviorist and I'm showing off//)

The problem many 'smart' people have is not so much in the argument, per se, but rather in dealing with people who either cannot keep up or simply need more process time.

Engaged in an argument with each other, 'smart' people are highly adaptable and can digest an argument very quickly- and often can take that argument and make it fit their preexisting worldview.

Conversely, 'smart' people can absorb and digest ideas that were previously unacceptable. It's all about the mental Benjamins so to speak.

When they own it, they own it.

Fascinating stuff- to me, anyway.

78 Curt  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:41:04pm

troll chumming...

79 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:41:42pm

re: #78 Curt

Yup, you ride your own pony.
//

80 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 8:43:36pm

re: #68 Destro

That article confirms that the CIA and ISI worked together, but it also makes clear the ISI was both professional and manipulative long before 1979. It's also a source from India, and so must be used with caution when dealing with Pakistan. But it is good, and has been bookmarked.

81 Locker  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 9:04:13pm

re: #77 researchok

What you say describes my perspective. I talk really, really, really fast if not monitored and it takes a LOT of attention to monitor. Trying to keep up with my racing brain and "get it all out".

However, in that equation (me vs someone who can't "keep up") I may emotionally react improperly or impatiently but my mind knows that I'm the problem, not them. Thankfully meds and The Buddha are affecting a change.. little by little.

82 Sophia77  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 10:37:09pm

This hypothesis is sheer paranoia. Destro, you're out of line. With respect.

83 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 10:38:08pm

re: #81 Locker

You know, you've been more open than almost everyone around here--and I was thinking that there's no way I could put myself in your shoes. I ended up shaking my head and said aloud, 'Maybe Buddhism.'

And since you never have to stop for gas, now you have time to really get into it.

84 Sophia77  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 10:40:16pm

To elaborate: this is a particularly nasty Jewish conspiracy theory, an antisemitic meme with a very long and ugly history. You've simply adapted the meme of sneaky Jewish manipulation to fit your "facts" and this day and age and circumstance, and I find your idea really offensive as well as ridiculous.

85 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 10:40:33pm

re: #70 SanFranciscoZionist

You lied about what I said - distorted it. I did not in any way claim a position where I supported the USSR invasion of Afghanistan. I merely stated that Afghanistan would have been better off as a Soviet client state, where women would be educated, have rights and children would be educated. Afghanistan would now be like Uzbekistan. I know that does not sound like an improvement but it would be. All Afghanistan is today is because the USA chose to fight a war allied with the scum of the earth - and by that I mean the Pakistanis and Saudis.

But like I wrote, you trying to insult troll - try harder next time.

86 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 10:44:47pm

re: #84 Sophia77

To elaborate: this is a particularly nasty Jewish conspiracy theory, an antisemitic meme with a very long and ugly history. You've simply adapted the meme of sneaky Jewish manipulation to fit your "facts" and this day and age and circumstance, and I find your idea really offensive as well as ridiculous.

So let me get this right:

The Jerusalem Post is publishing an antisemitic meme?

Do you think I wrote this article? The author's email is dmbloomfield@comcast.net

The author's bio is here [Link: www.jpost.com...]

Douglas M. Bloomfield is a syndicated columnist, Washington lobbyist and consultant. He spent nine years as the legislative director and chief lobbyist for the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC). In this position, he was responsible for developing and guiding strategy on Capitol Hill to secure military and economic aid for Israel and strengthen US-Israel relations. As the World Jewish Congress representative in Washington, he helped coordinate the Swiss banks and Nazi gold investigations and US government support for restitution of Jewish properties seized by former Nazi and Communist regimes. He is a Capitol Hill veteran who served as a senior advisor to Congressman Benjamin S. Rosenthal of New York and a legislative assistant for Senator Hubert H. Humphrey. Prior to that, he was a member of the editorial staff for Ohio's The Cleveland Plain Dealer. Bloomfield has taught college journalism, and is a former president of the Greater Washington Jewish Community Relations Council.

So is this man now to be charged as an anti-semite? And why am I accused of it for posting his article from the Jerusalem Post. Complain to Mr. Bloomfield. I, on the other hand agree with his conclusions based on the irrational Netanyahu war drum beating prior to the American election.

87 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 10:49:26pm

I only had the chance to lurk lightly for quite a while so I hadn't really gotten acquainted with you, Destro. But after catching up on a few of your recent articles I can say I'm sad I defended you in that previous thread. I may agree with some of your points but in the larger scope it is clear that you have an agenda I don't like, a large degree of ideological inflexibility, and your rhetorical style is atrocious.

Do I want war with Iran? Fuck no. Is Israel going to attack Iran just in time to influence the election here? Hell no. They would attack a nation and put all their citizens at risk just to influence an election here in which the candidates both support Israel? Your caricature of Israelis doesn't mesh at all with the pragmatic and intelligent people I know Jews to be.

88 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 10:53:54pm

re: #87 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter

A) You do know I did not write this article, right?

B) Netanyahu is represenatives of Jews now? That's like saying Americans are all crooks because of Nixon.

89 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 10:55:14pm

re: #86 Destro

Here's the difference. You read that article and you think--Aha! Truth! Facts!

I read that article and I think--Dude (Doug), why don't you know what you just stepped in?

90 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:00:18pm

You would say that since you are on record as defending Nentanyahu.

91 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:06:37pm

re: #90 Destro

Yeah, I like him. And I've even stated my reasons. But that wouldn't change the fact that Doug stepped in something, and doesn't seem to know it.

Actually, I'm sure he knows it by now.

There are many Jews who are not pleased with Netenyahu. See, it's not that big of a deal. Coalition government, could fall tomorrow, all that.

92 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:06:58pm

re: #88 Destro

A) You do know I did not write this article, right?

B) Netanyahu is represenatives of Jews now? That's like saying Americans are all crooks because of Nixon.

A) Yes.

B) No, Netanyahu is a jew though, IIRC. As a leader he should consider the effect of his actions on the politics in America, but his primary concern has to be the welfare of his citizens. Getting Mint elected would have a relatively minor effect on US policy with regards to Israel. But doing so by going to war would have a large negative effect on the well being of Israel's populace. So I don't think that Netanyahu, having at least some degree of pragmatism, is foolish enough to make such a tradeoff. And if he did make such a choice he would have to explain it to other Jews, a people whom in my experience are relatively pragmatic and intelligent.

93 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:16:32pm

re: #92 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter

Leaving alone the fact that I was attacked on a personal level for posting this opinion piece (from a considerably credible source):

And if he did make such a choice he would have to explain it to other Jews, a people whom in my experience are relatively pragmatic and intelligent.

Right now Netanyahu is considering polygraph tests for his cabinet over leaks that indicate the Iranian threat is not as dire as Netanyahu is declaring it to be by someone probably trying to stop him from pulling the trigger (or banging the war drums).

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

94 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:20:42pm

re: #93 Destro

for posting this opinion piece (from a considerably credible source):

If Einstein farts in an elevator, it's still not fresh air.

95 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:21:45pm

re: #94 Bob Levin

If Einstein farts in an elevator, it's still not fresh air.

But you would sniff it up if it came from Bibi.

96 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:23:16pm

re: #95 Destro

You would not be hired to work on Your Show of Shows.

Should I consider that a personal attack? Legitimate question.

97 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:26:13pm

re: #96 Bob Levin

Your Show of Shows? How old are you?

98 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:28:35pm

re: #93 Destro

Leaving alone the fact that I was attacked on a personal level for posting this opinion piece (from a considerably credible source):

I don't condone personal attacks. That's why I stepped in when I stumbled into that other thread. Though I'm certainly not perfect in that regard myself. We all have a long way to go when it comes to avoiding common fallacies such as ad hominems. Though some people clearly aren't trying at all.

Right now Netanyahu is considering polygraph tests for his cabinet over leaks that indicate the Iranian threat is not as dire as Netanyahu is declaring it to be by someone probably trying to stop him from pulling the trigger (or banging the war drums).

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

He doesn't exactly sound like someone that has the power to take the whole nation to war if he can't even get his own people aligned.

99 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:29:40pm

re: #97 Destro

Old enough to know quality. And old enough to know history. If you want to make a joke about me living through it, fine.

However, I'm also old enough to recognize certain historical memes that have developed into dangerous situations, if you know what I mean.

100 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:31:10pm

So I leave for a while, get an early phone call and low and behold, nothing has changed.

I'm shocked.

Who wants to play?

101 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:32:05pm

re: #100 researchok

The dice are under the couch. Mom hasn't dusted there in like a year.

102 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:33:07pm

re: #99 Bob Levin

However, I'm also old enough to recognize certain historical memes that have developed into dangerous situations, if you know what I mean.

Which makes you all the more pathetic seeing as you are accusing the Jerusalem post and a chief lobbyist for the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) - the author - of being anti-Semitic.

103 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:35:09pm

re: #97 Destro

Why is that a concern of yours?

On the other hand, you just might be an uneducated and of course that would make whatever you said even more irrelevant.

And explain your predilection for lying.

How about this idea I proposed earlier?

I have an idea- why don't you document the lies we've told and we can document the lies you have told.

OK with you?

104 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:35:12pm

re: #102 Destro

What? Are you sure English is your first language? I just said that they made a mistake--and played into the hands of folks such as yourself. They don't want to feed that part of the political world.

105 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:37:04pm

re: #102 Destro

Oh, opinions are anti Semitic now.

Guess what that makes you?

106 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:37:24pm

re: #104 Bob Levin

What? Are you sure English is your first language? I just said that they made a mistake--and played into the hands of folks such as yourself. They don't want to feed that part of the political world.

I made a mistake by reading the Jerusalem Post? And considering an article written by someone with a credible background as post worthy and ponderable?

107 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:38:21pm

re: #103 researchok

What's the matter- do0n't you want to play?

Why don't you start by apologizing to me?

Do you need a reminder?

108 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:38:50pm

re: #103 researchok

If what I said was irrelevant - you would not be following me around like a high school crush. I don't mind making you uncomfortable.

109 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:39:12pm

re: #106 Destro

An opinion piece is just that.

It is not gospel.

Does that get your Irish up?

110 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:39:55pm

re: #107 researchok

I try and not play with trolls. See you under the bridge.

111 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:41:19pm

re: #106 Destro

This is getting strange. Are you sure that you speak English? Read the JPost, I don't care. But you either don't understand what you read, or you purposely twist the meaning to fit another political universe.

112 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:42:30pm

re: #109 researchok

An opinion piece is just that.

It is not gospel.

Does that get your Irish up?

That's why there is a question mark in the title. That's how English works. You just don't want people exposed to that opinion.

113 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:43:40pm

re: #108 Destro

LOLOL

Projection- you don't make me uncomfortable at all!

You called me a liar when I asked you to provide a singole example of my backing an attack agaiunst Iran.

You then posted a link to a page I posted- not what I wrote- and then proceedede to call me a liar again!

Of course, the truth was a bit different, wasn't it?

Do you ever not lie?

Are you even capable of telling the truth?

That was not written by me, but was an opinion piece- and I al;so noted in the piece the other side of the argument.

Editor’s note: This article is one of two debating the necessity of an Israeli attack on Iran’s nuclear project. The other, by Robert Wexler, argues that “An Attack Might Be Necessary, but Not Yet.”

Can you ever tell the truth?

114 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:45:34pm

re: #112 Destro

And speaking of lies, recall this?

Firstly, you accused myself and SFZ of being dishonest and lying.

Secondly, referencing what you wrote previously is a very good way to determine your credibility.

Thirdly, the fact is you have repeatedly made clear your feelings of disdain (and I'm being polite) towards religious people speaks volumes. Even Curious Lurker, who is probably has forgotten more about Islam (the real Islam, not the version you seem to reference) and who is one of the more decent band finer people on this board made clear her contempt for your so called 'progressive' ideals. It takes a lot to piss her off and she doesn't miss much.

Now, as for other lie, you said I am cheerleader for an attack on Iran. Really? Man up and show me where I said that. Be a man, stand by your words. Show some integrity.

I have never called for an attack on Iran and infact, I have more sympathy for the people you claim repulse you.

I have no compulsion calling you a liar because that is precisely what you are.

And everyone reading this by now knows that truth.

Piss on others, get pissed on.

Man up

115 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:46:19pm

re: #111 Bob Levin

This is getting strange. Are you sure that you speak English? Read the JPost, I don't care. But you either don't understand what you read, or you purposely twist the meaning to fit another political universe.

The following is a direct quote. I distorted nothing:

An October surprise would also give Netanyahu and the Republicans a platform for saying his failure to solve the problem through diplomacy and economic pressure had ‘forced’ Israel to attack.

..snip..

Netanyahu has a well-deserved reputation for meddling in American politics and has had rocky relations with Democratic presidents during his two terms as prime minister. He has known Romney since their days in finance in Boston and they share a number of friends, advisors and financial backers. With such an overlap, it is not out of the question that the two camps are coordinating their strategy for maximum political impact.

It is hard to watch the debate in Israel and not come away with the impression that while the Iranian nuclear threat is the nation’s number one strategic concern, the urgency coming out of the top leadership is motivated in some part by a desire to exploit Obama’s political vulnerability by drawing the United States into a conflict the president feels it – and he – can ill afford.

Clear as the Queen's English to me.

116 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:46:44pm

re: #110 Destro

Is that best you can do?

Get busted and run away?

Figures.

No matter to me?

117 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:47:00pm

re: #114 researchok

Yup, you are both liars with agendas.

118 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:47:44pm

re: #115 Destro

LOL@Queens English.

Almost as good as getting your 'Irish' up.

119 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:48:47pm

re: #117 Destro

Where did I lie? So far, the only evidence you have offered is bullshit.

And besides showing you up for what you are, what is my agenda?

120 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:49:56pm

re: #118 researchok

I am sorry you are not familiar with common English expressions. Or is that some sort of attempt to not accept I am Irish (getting my Irish up) and instead I am some sort of Aye-rab or Eye-ranian or some such when you did the '' '' around Irish?

121 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:51:10pm

re: #120 Destro

Where did I lie? So far, the only evidence you have offered is bullshit.

And besides showing you up for what you are, what is my agenda?

122 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:51:47pm

re: #120 Destro

Why would I think that?

123 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:52:57pm

re: #117 Destro

Yes, SFZ has a real history of lying.

Unlike yourself, of course.
//

124 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:53:03pm

re: #122 researchok

What is your fixation on "Irish"?

125 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:53:37pm

re: #123 researchok

She claimed I said something I did not. False witness.

126 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:55:01pm

re: #124 Destro

None

Now, back to the subject at hand.

Where did I lie? So far, the only evidence you have offered is bullshit.

And besides showing you up for what you are, what is my agenda?

How about this idea I proposed earlier?

I have an idea- why don't you document the lies we've told and we can document the lies you have told.

OK with you?

Here is your big opportunity

127 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:55:28pm

re: #115 Destro

The distortion comes in your interpretation. I know what's on the page. How you get 2+2=45, you do on your own.

128 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:56:26pm

re: #125 Destro

I can think of lots of things you lied about.

Lots.

She has a track record of not lying.

You do.

Know what I mean? Sure you do.

How about this idea I proposed earlier?

Why don't you document the lies we've told and we can document the lies you have told.

OK with you?

Here is your big opportunity

129 researchok  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:58:05pm

I don't think pivot and attack is working very well for you.

Just sayin'

130 Destro  Wed, Sep 5, 2012 11:59:17pm

re: #127 Bob Levin

What interpretation do you get from this article? And disagreeing with it as you do is not an interpretation, it is a refutation. I do not refute this article but I do ponder it based on the relationship of the GOP and the Netantyahu regime.

131 researchok  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 12:01:41am

re: #130 Destro

Seems to me Obama and Netanyahu are on the same page as well.

Is that a problem for you?

132 researchok  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 12:03:39am

Now, back to the subject at hand.

Where did I lie? So far, the only evidence you have offered is bullshit.

And besides showing you up for what you are, what is my agenda?

How about this idea I proposed earlier?

Why don't you document the lies we've told and we can document the lies you have told.

OK with you?

Here is your big opportunity

133 researchok  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 12:05:23am

Destro, take Locker's advice.

He's a smart guy and he knows what he is talking about.

Really, think about it.

And quit lying. You won't die.

134 Destro  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 12:06:56am

re: #131 researchok

Seems to me Obama and Netanyahu are on the same page as well.

Is that a problem for you?

I disagree with your statement's wording.

From:

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Once every few years Israel needs a slap in the face to remember where it stands in the world. On Tuesday it was US Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Martin Dempsey who assumed the role of the responsible adult and slapped Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Ehud Barak, the duo orchestrating the national hysteria surrounding the possibility of an attack in Iran.

135 Destro  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 12:08:41am

...

136 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 12:09:35am

re: #130 Destro

First, #94 was a great line.

What interpretation do you get from this article?

That Doug might have overstepped, and stepped into territory that he usually tries to avoid. So, it doesn't get much of a blip on my significance-meter. I also suspect that he's gotten quite a bit of flak along the lines of Sophia's comment. He will live and be a better person as a result.

And disagreeing with it as you do is not an interpretation, it is a refutation.

Then you'd have to know my interpretation--which you did not know until I just wrote it, above. I'm letting it be a part of Doug's life. Now, how are you going to read this as a refutation?

As I said way up above, the facts, the reality of Israel, does not fit your thesis.

137 Destro  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 12:11:09am

re: #136 Bob Levin

It is not my thesis but it is worthy of pondering.

138 researchok  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 12:14:18am

re: #134 Destro

More opinion.

In any event, this seems to be more accurate.

And given the Dems- at Obama's request- put Israel and Jerusalem front and center again, I'd say your analysis is as credible as your veracity.

And there is more See LGF post here.

Israeli Defense Minister: Obama Has Done More for Israel Than Any President

But let's get back to the subject at hand:

Where did I lie? So far, the only evidence you have offered is bullshit.

And besides showing you up for what you are, what is my agenda?

How about this idea I proposed earlier?

Why don't you document the lies we've told and we can document the lies you have told.

OK with you?

Here is your big opportunity

139 researchok  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 12:15:14am

re: #137 Destro

LOLOL

Sorry, you can't pretend you have nothing to answer for.

140 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 12:15:51am

re: #137 Destro

I pondered it in comment 3, re-ok pondered it in comment 1. Here we are at near 138. How did this happen? Because we've been done ponderin' for quite a while.

141 researchok  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 12:16:18am

re: #140 Bob Levin

Not in never never land.

142 garhighway  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 10:38:37am

I don't know about the October Surprise thing (and I strongly doubt that Netanyahu would shed blood just to mess with our election) but I remain uncomfortable with how much influence Israel has in our domestic politics.

143 researchok  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 11:47:41am

re: #142 garhighway

I don't know about the October Surprise thing (and I strongly doubt that Netanyahu would shed blood just to mess with our election) but I remain uncomfortable with how much influence Israel has in our domestic politics.

Why do you suppose that is?

144 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 12:16:26pm

re: #143 researchok

I'm not garhighway, but I'll give my unasked for thoughts anyway. :D

I think there is a number of potential reasons why. In some ways it extends back to WW2 when we lost much of our former antisemitism and started associating Jews with the good guys. This was a very formative period in our history. I also think that some politicians view Israel as a tool of middle east diplomacy or as a weapon for middle eastern warfare. I think other pols use Israel cynically to bash each other over the heads with.

I wish both parties would agree that that using Israel as a political tool against each other should be off the table. Both parties support Israel after all. Kinda like how the political parties in Finland agreed to stop using education as a tool to beat each other up over. And look at their education system now.

I also want to comment about the original topic. Obama scores way better than Mitt with regards to foreign policy. It's not at all clear that Israel going to war with Iran would actually be a boost for Mitt. It could just as easily be a boost for Obama since he's viewed as the better diplomat.

145 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 12:31:10pm

re: #142 garhighway

First, Researchok's question was about your discomfort over something that is pretty much non-existent.

China has an unbelievable amount of influence in our domestic politics. Israel, practically none.

However, it would be difficult to formulate a Middle East foreign policy without taking Israel into consideration.

I suspect you don't want to trace the footsteps of our last conversation about this--so I'll just ask you if you understand the paragraph about China and leave it at that. Oh, and are you bothered by the influence that China has on our domestic policy?

146 researchok  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 12:39:37pm

re: #144 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter

Not much to disagree with here, save or one reality.

Support for Israel is so strong because Americans believe that stance is the most moral stance.

When you factor in the statements and behaviors of her enemies, that stance is understood.

This is course does not conflict with your remarks, but does clarify them, I believe.

Support for Israel is less about a response antisemitism than is often alluded.

Even if you factor out the Evangelicals support for Israel remains very high (over 70%) this is not the result of politics.

If a politician ran on an anti Israel platform he or she is almost guaranteed to lose.

The belief is taking that kind of stand is immoral.

To be clear, this is not an excoriation of Muslims. Support for Israel is not a Jewish-Islamic choice. Muslims have been put in the position they find themselves by decades of broken and dysfunctional leaders who exploit hate and fear for their own ends.

I know I sound like a broken record on that issue but it is true.

The matter of support for Israel has longed ceased being a political issue and has instead morphed into a moral issue.

In creating that reality, continued Arab world dysfunction is guaranteed.

Tyrants keep attention focused outward and Muslims are told they are victims.

147 researchok  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 12:45:33pm

It is often noted that reference to the Holocaust and the lessons learned are too often referenced and overblown

I would agree save for a few realities.

The obsession Jews have with Holocaust can be understood by incessant reference to that dark time. Promises to 'Finish what Hitler started', praise for the beast- 'Allah in Heaven Hitler on Earth' are a part of the ugliness deliberately fed to entire populations.

Have you ever noticed how the people who so ferociously deny the Holocaust are the same people who insist another would be a splendid idea?

148 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 12:59:46pm

re: #146 researchok

This is course does not conflict with your remarks, but does clarify them, I believe.

Certainly. My comments weren't meant to be all inclusive. The variety of reasons could include many that I didn't mention. Strong public support for Israel is definitely a major factor in the political arena.

To be clear, this is not an excoriation of Muslims. Support for Israel is not a Jewish-Islamic choice. Muslims have been put in the position they find themselves by decades of broken and dysfunctional leaders who exploit hate and fear for their own ends.

Sure, on a basic level. But we shouldn't ignore our history with those leaders either.

Tyrants keep attention focused outward and Muslims are told they are victims.

Well many are victims. Victims of tyrants in many cases and victims of bigotry in others. Muslims in America, for example, aren't under a tyrant's thumb anymore. But they can just as easily be victimized by some ignorant redneck with a truck and a rope.

149 garhighway  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 12:59:51pm

re: #145 Bob Levin

First, Researchok's question was about your discomfort over something that is pretty much non-existent.

China has an unbelievable amount of influence in our domestic politics. Israel, practically none.

However, it would be difficult to formulate a Middle East foreign policy without taking Israel into consideration.

I suspect you don't want to trace the footsteps of our last conversation about this--so I'll just ask you if you understand the paragraph about China and leave it at that. Oh, and are you bothered by the influence that China has on our domestic policy?

I freely confess that my knowlege here is unscientific, and if there was a real quantitative way to get at this I would love to know what it is. So instead I read the news. And I read lots of articles about how the various parties court the Israeli lobby in its various forms and flavors and how the media closely parses every interaction Obama has with Bibi and how Bibi addresses Congress and has side meetings with GOP leadership, and on and on and on.

I'm guessing that were I to do a news search for just this week there would be a mountain of such articles.

China? Not so much. They have massive economic influence, but do I see them trying to engage in our domestic politics? No. If you see that on anywhere near the scale that we see with Israel, please point it out. I'm fine with being wrong here, but I don't think I am.

I would get queasy about any foreign country trying to play in our internal politics. But I only see one that really tries.

150 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 1:30:00pm

re: #149 garhighway

I freely confess that my knowlege here is unscientific, and if there was a real quantitative way to get at this I would love to know what it is. So instead I read the news. And I read lots of articles about how the various parties court the Israeli lobby in its various forms and flavors and how the media closely parses every interaction Obama has with Bibi and how Bibi addresses Congress and has side meetings with GOP leadership, and on and on and on.

The news is not much different than reading Soap Opera Digest. Reading Israeli papers is not that much different from reading Soap Opera Digest. I bypass these magazines, barely even see the titles at the checkout.

There are quantitative ways to get at this. First, you identify what you think are the mainsprings, so to speak, of daily domestic functions. Actually, start there and let us know what you think.

I have my own ideas of what makes domestic policy, current events, tick--and China plays a heavy role in every one. National debt? China buys our bonds, and early in the President's term gave him a clear message about holding down government spending. Consumer goods and prices? China supplies Walmart. Employment? Walmart again. The stock market? Consumer demand, employment, discretionary income, consumer optimism, all have China's hand on the ball. But I don't mind, as long as they are helping out.

Israel does not buy US bonds, they are not the factory side of town for Walmart, they have no influence on the stock market--outside of how the market responds to external events. And they certainly don't hold the leverage of China in regards to our monetary policy.

So outside of Netenyahu speaking before Congress, which is nothing more than a show, what do you see? (And as I showed you, many foreign dignitaries have spoken before Congress, more times than the Prime Minister of Israel.)

151 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 6, 2012 1:32:45pm

re: #149 garhighway

Ah, I didn't mention energy. Who has control of the world's energy market? Israel? Nope.


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Deep Sea Diver - Impossible Weight (Studio Video) “Impossible Weight” off Deep Sea Diver’s new album 'Impossible Weight' out now. Filmed during the recording of Impossible Weight at Hall of Justice in Seattle WA. STREAM / BUY "Impossible Weight" here smarturl.it WATCH OFFICAL MUSIC VIDEO HERE : ...
Thanos
5 days, 2 hours ago
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Eddie Vedder - Matter of Time (Official Music Video) The official music video for "Matter of Time" by Eddie Vedder. Written for everyone worldwide afflicted with Epidermolysis Bullosa (EB). To help fund research aimed at treating and curing EB, please donate to the EB Research Partnership: ebresearch.org “Matter ...
Thanos
5 days, 15 hours ago
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#Thegreatpoolpondconversion - 201122 Saturday was general maintenance around the place.Mowing, weed whacking, palm tree trimming, etc.Nothing picture worthy or really, even pond related. Sunday was more rain. We really were lucky for that first year. Not one Sunday did we get rained ...
dangerman
6 days, 18 hours ago
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Nduduzo Makhathini - UmlothaMusic video by Nduduzo Makhathini performing Umlotha. © 2020 Universal Music (Pty) Ltd South Africa vevo.ly
Thanos
1 week, 1 day ago
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Brian Eno - Decline and Fall (From ‘O Nome Da Morte’) The official music video for "Decline and Fall”, a track from the new album “Film Music 1976 - 2020”, is a cinematic collaboration between Brian Eno and acclaimed Brazilian film director Henrique Goldman which contemplates rain and fire, fiction ...
Thanos
1 week, 5 days ago
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Brian Eno - Like I Was a Spectator 'Like I Was A Spectator', a brand new track by Brian Eno with Daniel Lanois and Roger Eno from ‘Apollo – Atmospheres & Soundtracks – Extended Edition’. The video was created using rare N.A.S.A. footage.Order now: brianeno.lnk.to Follow Brian ...
Thanos
1 week, 5 days ago
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#Thegreatpoolpondconversion - 201115After two really sunny and swell days since Eta left, Saturday was a mix of mostly sun and a bit of rain.We still managed to be really productive both days anyway. Got all the lava rock washed and shoveled into ...
dangerman
2 weeks ago
Views: 1,178 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 6
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Michael Kiwanuka - Solid Ground (Live at the V&A) Listen to the Mercury Prize winning album ’KIWANUKA' now: michaelkiwanuka.lnk.to Michael Kiwanuka performing Solid Ground taken from the Mercury Prize winning album 'KIWANUKA' live at the Victoria & Albert museum in London. Sign up to Michael's mailing list: michaelkiwanuka.lnk.toFollow ...
Thanos
2 weeks, 1 day ago
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Deep Sea Diver - Impossible Weight Featuring Sharon Van Etten (Official Video) “Impossible Weight” off Deep Sea Diver’s new album 'Impossible Weight' out now. Order 'Impossible Weight' here smarturl.it Distributed by ATO Records ~~~~~~~~~ Directors: Jessica Dobson, Peter Mansen, Tyler KalbergArt direction: Jessica Dobson, Tyler KalbergDirector of photography: Tyler KalbergCamera operator ...
Thanos
2 weeks, 1 day ago
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