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1 EiMitch  Fri, Sep 7, 2012 4:21:40pm

Yes, today's republican party is ridiculously extremist. Yes, SuperPACs are ruining our politics. And yes, the SCOTUS Citizens United ruling paved the way for Grover Norquist to hijack and monopolize an entire major political party.

Having said that, these two articles talking about the GOP planning mass murders is sensationalist Godwin bulls***! There are plenty of vital reasons to defeat the teabaggers and take back our elections from mega-corporations without having to resort to this agitprop crapola.

Just because somebody has the same enemies as you Destro, that doesn't mean they're trustworthy. Or do you only care about whether the ends justify the means?

2 Destro  Fri, Sep 7, 2012 4:45:15pm

re: #1 EiMitch

These articles do not say the "GOP is planning mass murders". It is talking about a powerful and dangerous cult within the American political reality.

3 cinesimon  Fri, Sep 7, 2012 4:50:00pm

re: #1 EiMitch

Seems to me you didn't actually read the articles. You're arguing against a position and claims not made.

4 Gus  Fri, Sep 7, 2012 8:53:01pm

A highly suspicious and rather hysterical "report" brought to you by some guy that calls himself a shaman and some article written by a Katherine Stewart trying to sell her book "The Good News Club: The Christian Right's Stealth Assault on America's Children." All based on a literal reading by Ms. Stewart of the Amalekites. Unless they have clear and concrete proof of such plans -- and a Bible reading doesn't count -- I will remain highly skeptical of the assumptions made here.

5 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 7, 2012 9:02:54pm

"Christian fundamentalists plan to teach genocide of enemies of schoolchildren" seems like a pretty clear claim made.

These people sound unpleasant, and they sound as though they have a very clear and obnoxious agenda--of getting their program into public schools, not of genocide.

OTOH, this sort of "They teach their children to obey mindlessly, and the story of Amalek has been used to bolster genocide!" routine that Stewart is doing sounds a bit to me like Pam Geller shrieking hysterically about the six verses she knows of the Koran.

Sounds like the Supremes were way off on this one. I can't see a legal justification for this program having public school access. That's the big story, but it doesn't let you work the word 'genocide' into the title.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I was taught the story of Amalek in religious school, and have never felt the slightest desire to go around committing genocide on the neighbors.

6 Gus  Fri, Sep 7, 2012 9:18:56pm

re: #5 SanFranciscoZionist

"Christian fundamentalists plan to teach genocide of enemies of schoolchildren" seems like a pretty clear claim made.

These people sound unpleasant, and they sound as though they have a very clear and obnoxious agenda--of getting their program into public schools, not of genocide.

OTOH, this sort of "They teach their children to obey mindlessly, and the story of Amalek has been used to bolster genocide!" routine that Stewart is doing sounds a bit to me like Pam Geller shrieking hysterically about the six verses she knows of the Koran.

Sounds like the Supremes were way off on this one. I can't see a legal justification for this program having public school access. That's the big story, but it doesn't let you work the word 'genocide' into the title.

FULL DISCLOSURE: I was taught the story of Amalek in religious school, and have never felt the slightest desire to go around committing genocide on the neighbors.

She's coming to this conclusion based on a literal reading -- ironically -- of the bible based in Samuel 15:3:

"Now go, attack the Amalekites, and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys."

This is found even in the New Testament. So, we equate said group with "strong adherence" to their ethos plus this feature of Samuel 15:3 and we come to the conclusion that Good News Clubs’ is creating future "child zomebie" that will commit genocide on people?

What about the other church organizations that require strong adherence? They too will have to read Samuel 15.3.

The bible isn't an owners manual. Even the most devout I've know are not literalists. There are many awful things in the bible and most people don't see it as a cause to order.

Highly inconclusive.

7 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 7, 2012 9:51:03pm

re: #6 Gus

She's coming to this conclusion based on a literal reading -- ironically -- of the bible based in Samuel 15:3:

This is found even in the New Testament. So, we equate said group with "strong adherence" to their ethos plus this feature of Samuel 15:3 and we come to the conclusion that Good News Clubs’ is creating future "child zomebie" that will commit genocide on people?

What about the other church organizations that require strong adherence? They too will have to read Samuel 15.3.

The bible isn't an owners manual. Even the most devout I've know are not literalists. There are many awful things in the bible and most people don't see it as a cause to order.

Highly inconclusive.

Indeed. And its noteworthy that Leviticus sets out terms of peace to be offered to non-Canaanite cities, and even states that fruit trees near a besieged city are not to be cut down. Clearly, the Old Testament did not hold that all wars fought fought by the Hebrews should be genocidal. That makes Stewart's reasoning highly suspect.

8 Gus  Fri, Sep 7, 2012 9:55:49pm

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

Indeed. And its noteworthy that Leviticus sets out terms of peace to be offered to non-Canaanite cities, and even states that fruit trees near a besieged city are not to be cut down. Clearly, the Old Testament did not hold that all wars fought fought by the Hebrews should be genocidal. That makes Stewart's reasoning highly suspect.

Yes, it's also cherry picking and probably out of context for all I know. Using this criteria then anyone teach the bible is promoting who knows what. Are they going to start saying "Church-X" is creating future slave owners because of strict discipline and a bible passage? This is of course is not the case in most circumstances. There are too many negatives here.

9 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 7, 2012 9:55:53pm

re: #6 Gus

She's coming to this conclusion based on a literal reading -- ironically -- of the bible based in Samuel 15:3:

This is found even in the New Testament. So, we equate said group with "strong adherence" to their ethos plus this feature of Samuel 15:3 and we come to the conclusion that Good News Clubs’ is creating future "child zomebie" that will commit genocide on people?

What about the other church organizations that require strong adherence? They too will have to read Samuel 15.3.

The bible isn't an owners manual. Even the most devout I've know are not literalists. There are many awful things in the bible and most people don't see it as a cause to order.

Highly inconclusive.

I know something about how the passage is interpreted and understood by Jews. I'm not surprised that it's interpreted as a passage about unquestioning obedience by some Christian fundamentalists. (For those of you who haven't read it recently, Saul, then king of Israel, screws up not by failing to wipe out the tribe, but by sparing the Amalekite king, as an act of professional courtesy, and trying to keep the cattle. I would like Saul better if he'd spared the kids and killed the king.)

But teaching the Book of Samuel to kids is not incitement to genocide, any more than teaching kids Pam's Favorite Verses means they will all become suicide bombers. There's a lot more to religious education than just the text, or even how the text is interpreted.

10 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 7, 2012 10:01:00pm

re: #9 SanFranciscoZionist

I know something about how the passage is interpreted and understood by Jews. I'm not surprised that it's interpreted as a passage about unquestioning obedience by some Christian fundamentalists. (For those of you who haven't read it recently, Saul, then king of Israel, screws up not by failing to wipe out the tribe, but by sparing the Amalekite king, as an act of professional courtesy, and trying to keep the cattle. I would like Saul better if he'd spared the kids and killed the king.)

But teaching the Book of Samuel to kids is not incitement to genocide, any more than teaching kids Pam's Favorite Verses means they will all become suicide bombers. There's a lot more to religious education than just the text, or even how the text is interpreted.

As I understand it, the biggest purpose of the passage on the war against the Amalekites is to make the point that Saul served his own interests rather than God's will, resulting in Samuel (after hacking the captive Amalekite king to pieces (the Bible at times describes very violent events, and this is one of those times)) looking for a better man to replace Saul as king. Samuel finds that better man in David.

11 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Sep 7, 2012 10:10:00pm

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

As I understand it, the biggest purpose of the passage on the war against the Amalekites is to make the point that Saul served his own interests rather than God's will, resulting in Samuel (after hacking the captive Amalekite king to pieces (the Bible at times describes very violent events, and this is one of those times)) looking for a better man to replace Saul as king. Samuel finds that better man in David.

In terms of the narrative, that makes sense. I always wonder about poor Saul. The man was, if you read the text, probably mentally ill, and pretty much appears to have been set up to fail. He was, I must point out, hand-picked by God and pointed out to Samuel as a suitable king. Is he just a fall guy to get David on the scene? Was there some way he could have been successful, and kept God's favor? (He could have killed Agag, but I doubt there's any way he could have avoided being a paranoid schizophrenic.)

I love Samuels I & II. The David story is amazing literature. I have an ambition of someday writing a novel about the women in David's life.

12 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Sep 7, 2012 10:24:57pm

re: #11 SanFranciscoZionist

In terms of the narrative, that makes sense. I always wonder about poor Saul. The man was, if you read the text, probably mentally ill, and pretty much appears to have been set up to fail. He was, I must point out, hand-picked by God and pointed out to Samuel as a suitable king. Is he just a fall guy to get David on the scene? Was there some way he could have been successful, and kept God's favor? (He could have killed Agag, but I doubt there's any way he could have avoided being a paranoid schizophrenic.)

I love Samuels I & II. The David story is amazing literature. I have an ambition of someday writing a novel about the women in David's life.

Kings often ended up paranoid, especially those whose grip on the throne was uncertain. But Saul had to contend both with the expectations of God as expressed through Samuel as well as those of his own men. It's the latter that made Saul want to ignore some of God's instructions: Men fighting for a king normally expected that a victorious war would net them considerable booty. The idea of destroying the animals and valuables likely stuck in the craw of Saul and most of his men.

13 CriticalDragon1177  Fri, Sep 7, 2012 10:48:19pm

Destro,

Not sure, but I think I heard about this over at Loon Watch a awhile back. Anyway, its utterly disturbing.

14 Destro  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 7:16:10am

re: #5 SanFranciscoZionist

FULL DISCLOSURE: I was taught the story of Amalek in religious school, and have never felt the slightest desire to go around committing genocide on the neighbors.

I edited the stuff about the bible being bad etc.

New comment: I view the bible as mythology rather than history and whatever truths the bible holds is in the form of mythological truths. But that is not how these Dominionists read the bible.


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