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1 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 1:42:47pm

One more thought: Does he then get to move to the woman's prison?

He has a body with a skeletal-muscular system built by testosterone, and which will be proportionately stronger, and he has already proven himself capable of violence.

2 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 2:54:33pm

This is bullshit. No freaking way taxpayer funds should be used for this kind of crap. I'm sure there is someone there who is having emotional trauma over being bald. We gonna get him some hair plugs as well?

Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.

3 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 2:59:27pm

re: #2 Locker

This is bullshit. No freaking way taxpayer funds should be used for this kind of crap. I'm sure there is someone there who is having emotional trauma over being bald. We gonna get him some hair plugs as well?

Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.

Uh, comparing transexualism and sexual reassignment surgery to hair plugs is a rather ignorant statement. You can be against what this judge ordered but try a different route next time and not one that sounds like something Archie Bunker would say.

4 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:03:59pm

re: #3 Gus

Call it whatever you like. Deciding you are a woman or a man and demanding society pay to make your body "sort of" match the image in your head it is just as ridiculous as hair plugs. I stand by that statement. Now Edith, go get me a beer.

5 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:04:39pm

re: #4 Locker

Call it whatever you like. Deciding you are a woman or a man and demanding society pay to make your body "sort of" match the image in your head it is just as ridiculous as hair plugs. I stand by that statement. Now Edith, go get me a beer.

Dumb.

6 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:05:04pm

re: #5 Gus

Sucker.

7 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:10:24pm
8 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:15:46pm

You can post as many articles as you like and you aren't going to convince me that the state or any insurance company should have to pay for any sort of sex change surgery or any other sort of elective surgery to make someone feel better about themselves.

You and a million psychologist can insinuate that it's so terrible and worse than X, Y and Z but that's shit you gotta get over or pay for yourself. Mental help, yes.. if you can't handle your life and want to damage yourself and others because you are a man trapped in a womans body then the mental health treatments should be covered.

9 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:18:10pm

re: #8 Locker

You can post as many articles as you like and you aren't going to convince me that the state or any insurance company should have to pay for any sort of sex change surgery or any other sort of elective surgery to make someone feel better about themselves.

You and a million psychologist can insinuate that it's so terrible and worse than X, Y and Z but that's shit you gotta get over or pay for yourself. Mental help, yes.. if you can't handle your life and want to damage yourself and others because you are a man trapped in a womans body then the mental health treatments should be covered.

FTFY

10 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:18:19pm

Laugh yea that's it... all of the rest won't sway me but your one point down ding... how could I possibly survive?? I'll write my congressman right now!

11 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:20:02pm

Ok so is your bolding any new point or you just grousing some more? Would it make you feel better if I called it "Universal Health Care"? How about "Single Payer Health Care"? How about anything that everyone has to pay for that you should be paying for yourself?

12 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:21:53pm

Looks like other wingnuts got rattled about the topic in general.

memeorandum: Sandra Fluke Argued for Mandatory Coverage for Sex-Change Surgery (Robert Stacy McCain/The Other McCain)

Real progressives support insurance coverage for SRS.

13 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:23:23pm

You can call me as many names as you want and hold Sandra Fluke up like every word from her lips should be gospel for me. You can try to associate me with negative names to shame me.

It's not gonna work. Are you a little embarrassed to use such underhanded methods to accomplish your goal?

Update: Forgot to mention insinuating that I'm not a "real progressive" if I don't agree with you. This statement assumes:

1. That you get to decide what a real progressive is and who qualifies
2. That I want you to think I'm a real progressive

14 dragonfire1981  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:31:15pm

Dang, I got an ad for a transsexual dating site when I clicked on this page.

15 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:32:10pm

ObamaCare: You Will Be Paying For Sex-Change Operations
by Bryan Fischer, AFA Director of Issues Analysis

Bank on this one thing: If ObamaCare passes, you and I will soon be subsidizing sex-change operations with our own tax dollars.

The U.N. just this week declared that everybody in the world has a right to a sex-change operation if that's what they need for their mental health.

And a diversity task force in Forth Worth, Texas, recommended Tuesday that taxpayer-funded public employee health plans there should cover sex-change operations.

According to the Dallas Morning News, "[c]ity officials greeted the task force proposals warmly."

Predictably, homosexual activists declared that opposition to forcing taxpayers to fund expensive surgeries for sexually confused individuals is due only to "hysteria and homophobia."

...

16 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:32:46pm

Looks like the masks are falling off.

17 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:32:49pm

re: #15 Gus

False association

18 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:34:10pm

re: #16 Gus

Attack speaker

19 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:35:09pm

re: #18 Locker

Attack speaker

I'm not attacking the speaker I'm attacking bigotry. It's self evident when you compare SRS to hair plugs.

20 Varek Raith  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:35:28pm

GID is very real.
You can't dismiss brain structure as merely hair plugs.

21 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:35:59pm

When I compare the public having to pay for either one.

22 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:36:17pm

re: #20 Varek Raith

GID is very real.
You can't dismiss brain structure as merely hair plugs.

Apparently, Locker's an certified expert on gender issues, didn't you know?

23 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:36:48pm

re: #21 Locker

When I compare the public having to pay for either one.

Same argument the right uses for abortion and contraception.

24 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:37:06pm

Laugh you guys can gang up on me all you want and pretend the point of this conversation isn't the point. The thread is about tax payer funded changes, my comments are about public funded changes.

25 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:37:41pm

re: #23 Gus

I don't care who uses what argument. My argument is that I shouldn't have to pay for your sex change.

26 Decatur Deb  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:37:41pm

Lighten up, y'all. The number of Americans seeking sex changes is not going to drive the economy, and the circumstances of a prison suit are hardly mainstreet. This is just one for the judicial equivalent of Believe it or Not.

27 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:37:48pm

re: #24 Locker

Laugh you guys can gang up on me all you want and pretend the point of this conversation isn't the point. The thread is about tax payer funded changes, my comments are about public funded changes.

Yep. Just like abortion and contraception.

28 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:38:38pm

re: #27 Gus

Yep. Just like abortion and contraception.

You don't get to decide what my position is on things. I have to tell you.

29 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:40:18pm

I'm torn. On the one hand, if a competent medical team signs off on a gender reassignment surgery, I'm down with that, normally, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be covered by medical insurance, etc., etc.

On the other hand, I'm more concerned about the fact that Kosilek is a convicted murderer than about the fact that she is transgendered. For some reason, the notion that you can kill your wife and then have the state pay for expensive (and yes, elective) surgery that some law-abiding people go through hell to pay for seems fairly fucked up to me. Now, you could argue that that's true of almost any medical treatment, but some transpeople never do surgical transition, by choice. I don't know as I buy this as essential health care.

On the third hand, apparently she's already transitioning with hormones, and being effectively female in a men's prison sounds like a completely untenable situation. I'm not sure they should have started the hormones, but no one asked me.

On the fourth, I share Emmmie's concern, should she be transferred to a women's prison. All of the transwomen I've had the pleasure of meeting were extremely nice ladies, but they're tall, broad-shouldered ladies. This is someone who already has a record of deadly violence against women, as a man. Concerns I don't have about nice normal computer programmers who are trans do come up here.

30 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:40:37pm

re: #8 Locker

re: #4 Locker

Locker, get bent.

It's not that you don't have some points worthy of discussion, but discussion is not what you're doing or look to be doing, it's combative browbeating.

Your debate style sucks.

BTW, that "Now Edith, go get me a beer" quip of yours comes off making you look like even more of an ass; Archie Bunker, you're not.

31 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:41:38pm

re: #30 Gert Fröbe

Count the amount of personal insults I've made in this thread then count the ones made against me. Maybe you'll reconsider criticizing my style.

32 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:42:25pm

re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist

Locker, this is how to make an argument.

SFZ just schooled you...

33 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:43:42pm

I complete dismiss the attempts to force me anyone into any sort of "with us or against us" position. I don't care what you think about me.

I don't think I should have to pay for your sex change.
I don't think I should have to pay for your abortion, if it's your fault.
I would pay for your abortion if it wasn't your fault.
I would pay for your contraception.

So you can call me a tea bagger and they can call me a flaming liberal and I really don't give a shit.

34 Decatur Deb  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:44:00pm

re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm torn. On the one hand, if a competent medical team signs off on a gender reassignment surgery, I'm down with that, normally, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be covered by medical insurance, etc., etc.

On the other hand, I'm more concerned about the fact that Kosilek is a convicted murderer than about the fact that she is transgendered. For some reason, the notion that you can kill your wife and then have the state pay for expensive (and yes, elective) surgery that some law-abiding people go through hell to pay for seems fairly fucked up to me. Now, you could argue that that's true of almost any medical treatment, but some transpeople never do surgical transition, by choice. I don't know as I buy this as essential health care.

On the third hand, apparently she's already transitioning with hormones, and being effectively female in a men's prison sounds like a completely untenable situation. I'm not sure they should have started the hormones, but no one asked me.

On the fourth, I share Emmmie's concern, should she be transferred to a women's prison. All of the transwomen I've had the pleasure of meeting were extremely nice ladies, but they're tall, broad-shouldered ladies. This is someone who already has a record of deadly violence against women, as a man. Concerns I don't have about nice normal computer programmers who are trans do come up here.

This is a curiosity based an anomaly. Real concern would be the differential cancer survival rates of state prisoners and the state's general population. You don't want to have leukemia in an Alabama prison.

35 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:44:37pm

re: #32 Gert Fröbe

So you've been reduced to criticizing my writing style. I'll go ahead and assume you don't have anything to offer here.

36 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:45:00pm

re: #34 Decatur Deb

This is a curiosity based an anomaly. Real concern would be the differential cancer survival rates of state prisoners and the state's general population. You don't want to have leukemia in an Alabama prison.

Yeah, it's a pretty isolated case, and not terribly important. Kind of interesting, though.

37 Decatur Deb  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:45:51pm

re: #36 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, it's a pretty isolated case, and not terribly important. Kind of interesting, though.

Good one for law student late-night parties.

38 Varek Raith  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:47:00pm

re: #2 Locker

This is bullshit. No freaking way taxpayer funds should be used for this kind of crap. I'm sure there is someone there who is having emotional trauma over being bald. We gonna get him some hair plugs as well?

Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.

Medical science says otherwise.
For you to compare GID to baldness is just pathetic.

39 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:47:55pm

re: #38 Varek Raith

Medical science says otherwise.
For you to compare GID to baldness is just pathetic.

Compare the public paying for it.

40 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:49:29pm

re: #29 SanFranciscoZionist

...On the third hand, apparently she's already transitioning with hormones, and being effectively female in a men's prison sounds like a completely untenable situation. I'm not sure they should have started the hormones, but no one asked me...

That would likely be the primary concern when you consider that she'll have to be in isolation or segregated from the general population over the course of a lifetime. She would be safer, in general, in a female population. Those are added costs to the imprisonment. Then you have to add the possibility of her being assaulted which could require extensive medical treatment. The simpler and cheaper solution in the long haul is to pay for the SRS and be done with it.

41 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:50:15pm

re: #40 Gus

That would likely be the primary concern when you consider that she'll have to be in isolation or segregated from the general population over the course of a lifetime. She would be safer, in general, in a female population. Those are added costs to the imprisonment. Then you have to add the possibility of her being assaulted which could require extensive medical treatment. The simpler and cheaper solution in the long haul is to pay for the SRS and be done with it.

The simpler and cheaper solution is not to give the hormones in the first place and have the person do their time.

42 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:52:37pm

re: #41 Locker

The simpler and cheaper solution is not to give the hormones in the first place and have the person do their time.

IOW, denying medical treatment for a person with GID requiring hormonal therapy. This is contrary to generally accepted science.

43 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:53:55pm

re: #42 Gus

IOW, denying medical treatment for a person with GID requiring hormonal therapy. This is contrary to generally accepted science.

Are you claiming that someone requires hormone therapy before they even start it?

44 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:54:23pm

re: #39 Locker

Compare the public paying for it.

We lock these guys up, we commit to paying for their healthcare. The question here is how necessary this is, given both what we know about transsexuality, and the actual, rather bizarre situation on the ground.

45 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:54:31pm

re: #43 Locker

Are you claiming that someone requires hormone therapy before they even start it?

Start what?

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:58:04pm

re: #43 Locker

Are you claiming that someone requires hormone therapy before they even start it?

It's considered standard treatment. If she had bipolar disorder, they'd treat that.

And yet, I can't get over a sense that she's getting away with shit, despite all my Bay Area hipness and mental health education.

47 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:58:19pm

re: #44 SanFranciscoZionist

We lock these guys up, we commit to paying for their healthcare. The question here is how necessary this is, given both what we know about transsexuality, and the actual, rather bizarre situation on the ground.

The question is most certainly "how necessary" and I feel fairly firm in my position. So far the reasons to reconsider have been "bad people agree with you" and "it's worse than wanting hairplugs" which don't convince me in the slightest.

How many crimes and how much emotional distress has been caused in human history because of a man having a small dick? If dick transplants become viable should we pay for them to ease this emotional distress?

You can't just carve everyone up and make them better.

48 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:58:45pm

Oh boy.

49 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 3:59:12pm

re: #45 Gus

Start what?

Well, I might be able to see having to pay for hormones if the person was on them before they came to jail and they would die or whatever if you took them off.

Trying to understand your position.

50 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:07:00pm

re: #49 Locker

Well, I might be able to see having to pay for hormones if the person was on them before they came to jail and they would die or whatever if you took them off.

Trying to understand your position.

A) This is practically a one in a million case.
B) The state probably already spent more money opposing it.
C) Initial approval would have been the most cost effective.
D) The SRS remains the most cost effective in consideration of future security mitigation of a prisoner with GID.
E) SRS should be covered by insurance.

51 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:08:31pm

re: #35 Locker

So you've been reduced to criticizing my writing style. I'll go ahead and assume you don't have anything to offer here.

You can assume anything you like, but it doesn't make you look like any less of a combative asshole that's spoiling for a fight. When you come out swinging in your first post in this thread, throwing out nonsensical BS like this:

re: #2 Locker

This is bullshit. No freaking way taxpayer funds should be used for this kind of crap. I'm sure there is someone there who is having emotional trauma over being bald. We gonna get him some hair plugs as well?

Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.

then you shouldn't be surprised when people push back.

If you want to discuss the merits of the situation, fine, If you want to discuss who should pay for the surgery and how the inmate will handled by the prison system post-op, that's even better. But for you to spew pure emotional flotsam without going into detail about why you hold your positions, it's unvarnished bullshit.

52 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:09:31pm

re: #50 Gus

A) This is practically a one in a million case.
B) The state probably already spent more money opposing it.
C) Initial approval would have been the most cost effective.
D) The SRS remains the most cost effective in consideration of future security mitigation of a prisoner with GID.
E) SRS should be covered by insurance.

In that case:

A. Prisons should not start anyone on hormone therapy for this issue.
B. They should oppose it as much as possible
C. People paying for this them self would have been the most cost effective.
D. That is your extremely personal opinion
E. SRS should not be covered by insurance

Can we be done now? Am I allowed to have my opinion?

53 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:11:48pm

re: #52 Locker

In that case:

A. Prisons should not start anyone on hormone therapy for this issue.
B. They should oppose it as much as possible
C. People paying for this them self would have been the most cost effective.
D. That is your extremely personal opinion
E. SRS should not be covered by insurance

Can we be done now? Am I allowed to have my opinion?

Sure. You have a right to your opinion even if you're wrong. In this case you got A through E all wrong. IMO. Your initial statement, A, borders on cruel and unusual punishment in addition to being based on pseudo-science which assumes that hormonal therapy causes GID and leads to SRS in all situations.

54 Locker  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:12:41pm

Gus thinks I'm wrong. Got it. Peace.

55 iossarian  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:13:37pm

Weird thread.

The question appears to be: to what kind of life are prisoners entitled?

Obviously they are entitled to some kind of existence, since we don't just chuck them all in a pit to fight until they are killed or starve to death.

This is pretty much an edge case, whereby the needle shifts towards "a reasonably comfortable existence" and away from "a shitty existence".

Arguing about the edge case seems a bit of a waste of time. The interesting argument is more about the needle shift IMHO.

56 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:16:57pm

re: #51 Gert Fröbe

BTW, just so you know, Locker, my position on this is similar to SFZ: it's a procedure that causes people out in the free world a lot of money and anxiety and there are real questions about how they'll be classified and handled in the prison system post-op, but the state, in part, has committed down this road.

As the state is responsible for medical care of the prisoners under their care, it really is a hard case to make that the state should not pay for the surgery, especially for someone who's gonna spent the rest of their life (or a huge chunk of it) in prison.

57 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:20:06pm

re: #54 Locker

The more you go on and on, the more you sound like you just wanted to start and stir shit up, instead of having a reasoned discussion.

Are you really going for a martyr cookie about this?

58 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:21:25pm

re: #47 Locker

The question is most certainly "how necessary" and I feel fairly firm in my position. So far the reasons to reconsider have been "bad people agree with you" and "it's worse than wanting hairplugs" which don't convince me in the slightest.

How many crimes and how much emotional distress has been caused in human history because of a man having a small dick? If dick transplants become viable should we pay for them to ease this emotional distress?

You can't just carve everyone up and make them better.

Well, it is, in fact, worse than wanting hairplugs. There's substantial evidence that the gender in the brain is the only gender that counts TO the brain, and that GID will screw you up.

That much we do know. Learned a bit since the days of poor David Reimer.

59 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:22:04pm

re: #56 Gert Fröbe

BTW, just so you know, Locker, my position on this is similar to SFZ: it's a procedure that causes people out in the free world a lot of money and anxiety and there are real questions about how they'll be classified and handled in the prison system post-op, but the state has committed, in part, down this road. As the state is responsible for medical care of the prisoners under their care, it really is a hard case to make that the state should not pay for the surgery, especially for someone who's gonna spent the rest of their life (or a huge chunk of it) in prison.

Spending 100s of thousands (guessing here) to take this to court for what's approximately 12 to 25,000 dollars. In a one in a million case. Anyone who thinks that her spending the rest of her life in jail, as she just deserves, and have a grand old time, is wrong.

60 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:27:06pm

re: #58 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, it is, in fact, worse than wanting hairplugs. There's substantial evidence that the gender in the brain is the only gender that counts TO the brain, and that GID will screw you up.

That much we do know. Learned a bit since the days of poor David Reimer.

I had to look that up; man, that was all sorts of fucked up.

61 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:27:18pm

I think it's the nature of the crime that gets my back up. If she'd been a bank robber, I would probably feel less conflicted. The fact that this is someone who strangled his wife makes me much more hostile.

62 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:28:36pm

re: #60 Gert Fröbe

I had to look that up; man, that was all sorts of fucked up.

The received wisdom of the day was that it should have worked.

They were wrong.

A lot of people suffered for it.

63 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:30:26pm

David Reimer does not represent anything related to ordinary SRS and is a topic used often by anti-SRS proponents.

64 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:32:34pm

Let me throw something else into the mix. How about if a prisoner converts to Judaism and then requests to have a surgical circumcision performed? $2,000-$5,000 according to a quick search.

65 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:34:19pm

re: #63 Gus

David Reimer does not represent anything related to ordinary SRS and is a topic used often by anti-SRS proponents.

Well, it does relate to what SFZ said about how whatever gender one's brain is wired as is ultimately what matters most, despite external appearances and such.

66 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:35:23pm

re: #65 Gert Fröbe

Well, it does relate to what SFZ said after how whatever gender one's brain is wired as is ultimately what matters most, despite external appearances and such.

It relates but it's working backwards. That's assuming that just performing SRS for an injury will change someone like David into a girl. That should have never been done.

67 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:37:10pm

re: #63 Gus

David Reimer does not represent anything related to ordinary SRS and is a topic used often by anti-SRS proponents.

I wasn't aware of that. Seems bizarre, since what I take away from the case is that you cannot alter someone's gender simply by changing their genitals and giving them hormones. It is what it is. Most of us are lucky enough to have the genitals to match what we know we are. Some are unlucky enough to have a mismatch--we call that GID. David Reimer was born with the correct match, and an attempt was made to switch him. Doesn't work.

68 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:37:40pm

re: #66 Gus

It relates but it's working backwards. That's assuming that just performing SRS for an injury will change someone like David into a girl. That should have never been done.

I think she was saying that the field of gender reassignment has come a long way since Reimer was accidentally mutilated and forcibly reassigned.

69 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:39:20pm

re: #66 Gus

It relates but it's working backwards. That's assuming that just performing SRS for an injury will change someone like David into a girl. That should have never been done.

Hold on, no. The assumption made at the time was that that would work. The results pretty clearly show, however, that it doesn't work, because gender, it turns out, is deeper than genitals, hormones, and socialization.

70 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:41:52pm

re: #69 SanFranciscoZionist

Hold on, no. The assumption made at the time was that that would work. The results pretty clearly show, however, that it doesn't work, because gender, it turns out, is deeper than genitals, hormones, and socialization.

That's because SRS ALONE doesn't change a person's sexual identity.

71 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:43:43pm

re: #69 SanFranciscoZionist

Hold on, no. The assumption made at the time was that that would work. The results pretty clearly show, however, that it doesn't work, because gender, it turns out, is deeper than genitals, hormones, and socialization.

And while the case, and especially the professional hay that Money made out of it, is horrifying, there's really probably no way they could have known at the time what a fucked-up thing they were doing.

72 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:44:04pm

re: #70 Gus

That's because SRS ALONE doesn't change a person's sexual identity.

Yes. The Reimer case makes that fairly obvious.

73 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:44:20pm

re: #64 Gus

Let me throw something else into the mix. How about if a prisoner converts to Judaism and then requests to have a surgical circumcision performed? $2,000-$5,000 according to a quick search.

I say, get it done; a prisoner doesn't lose their freedom of religion under the Constitution and a religious circumcision, IMO, falls under that.

74 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:44:45pm

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

And while the case, and especially the professional hay that Money made out of it, is horrifying, there's really probably no way they could have known at the time what a fucked-up thing they were doing.

Money was an idiot. A smart idiot but he really screwed up with that "theory."

75 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:45:46pm

re: #73 Gert Fröbe

I say, get it done; a prisoner doesn't lose their freedom of religion under the Constitution and a religious circumcision, IMO, falls under that.

What in the Constitution would this fall under?

76 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:46:31pm

re: #74 Gus

Money was an idiot. A smart idiot but he really screwed up with that "theory."

It wasn't the only case; that was considered pretty standard at the time. Tragic results, but I don't know how they could really have known.

77 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:46:41pm

re: #75 Gus

What in the Constitution would this fall under.

It could fall under the Eighth Amendment (prohibiting "cruel and unusual punishment")...

78 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:47:05pm

re: #77 Gert Fröbe

Freedom of religion.

I meant the SRS. I forgot which.

79 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:47:55pm

re: #78 Gus

I meant the SRS. I forgot which.

Well, according to David Barton...

80 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:48:03pm

re: #78 Gus

I meant the SRS. I forgot which.

Figured that out; editing now

81 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:48:39pm

re: #80 Gert Fröbe

Figured that out; editing now

Wait for it!

//

82 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:50:10pm

Too funny seeing some of the positive updings on certain comments here. Looks like the class of 2004 stopped by.

83 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:51:25pm

re: #81 Gus

Wait for it!

//

Done; look back upthread.

Sorry, I'm at work...

84 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:51:57pm

re: #83 Gert Fröbe

Done; look back upthread...

That's the one. Thanks.

85 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:53:52pm

re: #47 Locker

The question is most certainly "how necessary" and I feel fairly firm in my position. So far the reasons to reconsider have been "bad people agree with you" and "it's worse than wanting hairplugs" which don't convince me in the slightest.

How many crimes and how much emotional distress has been caused in human history because of a man having a small dick? If dick transplants become viable should we pay for them to ease this emotional distress?

You can't just carve everyone up and make them better.

Still trying to figure out what to say about this comment.

86 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:54:13pm

Seems so, I don't know. Scientific.

//

87 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 4:56:30pm

re: #85 Gus

Still trying to figure out what to say about this comment.

Doesn't matter, because Locker was/is in an irrational rage about this, to the exclusion of all facts and arguments.

88 Gus  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 5:01:55pm

re: #87 Gert Fröbe

Doesn't matter, because Locker was/is in an irrational rage about this, to the exclusion of all facts and arguments.

This case has been lingering for years. I wonder what the final legal tally is. I'm pretty damn sure it's well over the SRS costs. If one were making a cost effectiveness argument. I was initially against her case. The sexual nature of the case is what causes the sometimes repellent reaction. My initial thoughts were somewhat like "she (he) wants to get a sex change in order to 'have it made' in a nicer women's prison."

89 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 5:52:57pm

re: #25 Locker

I don't care who uses what argument. My argument is that I shouldn't have to pay for your sex change.

That's not an argument.

90 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 5:55:51pm

re: #8 Locker

You can post as many articles as you like and you aren't going to convince me that the state or any insurance company should have to pay for any sort of sex change surgery or any other sort of elective surgery to make someone feel better about themselves.

I will bet you a lot that you're wrong.

Say that there's a person who has depression, caused by a small non-cancerous cyst on their hypothalamus. It can be removed via surgery. It's not life-threatening, it just makes them depressed. Would you really be against giving that person that operation?

What if it was something like an adrenalin-secreting tumor, which, as well as causing depression, causes rage?

91 BishopX  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 7:37:59pm

I would like to point out the michelle already tried to remedy the GID through castration, and not a nice doctor approved method either. She did it herself, without anesthesia.

If you have a mental condition severe enough that you try and chop bits of yourself off to alleviate, you should receive the treatment necessary to prevent that. Even if it is SRS or god-forbid, hair-plugs.

We wouldn't sentence someone to traumatic castration, why should we be able to put them in a position where that is their only option?

92 jytdog  Sat, Sep 8, 2012 8:41:53pm

Hey Locker did you read the actual decision?
[Link: pacer.mad.uscourts.gov...]

The reasoning is lucid. There is no way, under the law, that the state could not do this. I would love to see Scott Brown drive an appeal b/c it would get its butt kicked.

Locker I hear you that your gut disagrees with this, but being a citizen means using your head. For those whose guts agree with it, that is great, but again the law is the law.

93 researchok  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 2:10:23am
94 BishopX  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:39:56am

re: #93 researchok

Speaking as a Mass Resident who volunteers for her, I'm seriously unhappy that she did that. To the point where I'm considering not working for her. I have better uses of my time than supporting a transphobe.

95 Locker  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:22:46am

re: #94 BishopX

Speaking as a Mass Resident who volunteers for her, I'm seriously unhappy that she did that. To the point where I'm considering not working for her. I have better uses of my time than supporting a transphobe.

She'd probably be better off not having someone working for her who calls her a transphobe for not wanting to spend money on state sponsored sex changes.

96 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:30:55am

re: #95 Locker

Do you want to address the points I made, Locker?

97 Gus  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 10:59:05am

Couple of points. The cost to keep an inmate in the general population is roughly $60/day vs. $90/day for isolation. Over a period of 20 years we find:

$60 X 365 X 20 = $438,000

versus

$90 X 365 X 20 = $657,000

That's a savings of $219,000 or 10 times the cost of surgery this is assuming the inmate will not be held in isolation at the women's prison. Net savings otherwise is $199,000 in 20 years and is not adjusted for inflation or interest that could be gained.

Second point. The judge is a Reagan appointee.

Mark Lawrence Wolf

Wolf was nominated by President Ronald Reagan on March 8, 1985, to a new seat created by 98 Stat. 333. He was confirmed by the United States Senate on April 3, 1985, and received his commission on April 4, 1985. Wolf has served as chief judge for the District Court for the District of Massachusetts since 2006.

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:35:33am

re: #97 Gus

That's a savings of $219,000 or 10 times the cost of surgery this is assuming the inmate will not be held in isolation at the women's prison.

Can that be assumed, though? I'm not sure how a group of female inmates are going to react to someone they may well not consider to be female in gen pop. She'll be at less risk of sexual assault, but possibly just as much for getting stomped in the yard. Not to mention my previous concerns about letting someone with a record of strangling a woman, and a man's frame, cell with ciswomen.

The other thing that keeps occuring to me is that the VA wouldn't pay for this for a veteran on full disability. This does seem like a hell of a person to decide that reassignment surgery is a medical necessity for.

Not agin' it, especially if legally it's what they've got to do...but I still can't say I'm happy for her.

99 Obdicut  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:39:14am

re: #98 SanFranciscoZionist

It's such an obvious corner case that it's hard for me to get really worked up in either direction. If psychiatrists say it's a necessity and we trust those psychiatrists to make these kind of decisions then we should pay for it. Our total expenditure on sex-changes is going to be rather amazingly small.

100 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 11:43:48am

re: #99 Obdicut

It's such an obvious corner case that it's hard for me to get really worked up in either direction. If psychiatrists say it's a necessity and we trust those psychiatrists to make these kind of decisions then we should pay for it. Our total expenditure on sex-changes is going to be rather amazingly small.

Yeah, it's not going to break the bank, it's not the world's biggest. Most of what really makes me angry about it doesn't have to do directly with the decision in any way.

101 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Sep 9, 2012 7:32:43pm

re: #64 Gus

Let me throw something else into the mix. How about if a prisoner converts to Judaism and then requests to have a surgical circumcision performed? $2,000-$5,000 according to a quick search.

BTW, totally off topic, but so much? Is that what it costs on medical insurance? Most mohelim charge much less than that, and I think many/most would do a bris for a prisoner free of charge. And if this guy wants a proper bris, he won't want the hospital option anyway.


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