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122 comments

1 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 5:20:03am

What happened in Egypt and Lybia is called blowback. Americans hate learning what this word means for some reason. This seems to happen everytime ths US uses Muslim religious fanatics to overthrow uncooperative secular socialist regimes. See Afghanistan, see Iraq, see Lybia, see Iran (in that one the CIA overthrew a socialist in favor of a monarchy) and maybe soon Syria.

2 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 5:29:57am

re: #1 Destro

You're calling Assad's government an uncooperative secular socialist regime?

Assad's government wasn't secular, and wasn't socialist. Just because a party calls themselves 'socialist' doesn't mean that they are. It was an authoritarian regime, and all legislation had to be grounded in Islamic jurisprudence.

Why not bother to learn just a fucking iota of facts before you write?

3 Stoatly  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 5:56:54am

re: #2 Obdicut

Why not bother to learn just a fucking iota of facts before you write?

Because facts are complex messy things that get in the way of the nice warm glow of Truthiness that comes with a simplistic world-view

4 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:04:37am

re: #3 Stoatly

Because facts are complex messy things that get in the way of the nice warm glow of Truthiness that comes with a simplistic world-view

The fucking irritating thing is that there's a perfectly good point to be made about the US having dirty hands in encouraging revolutions against countries for many reasons, including simply at the behest of large corporations. It's a shameful part of our past (and present) that should be addressed.

But it can't be addressed by lying about the virtues of Assad's authoritarian regime.

5 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:16:33am

re: #2 Obdicut

Bullshit. Assad is as secular dictatorship like Saddam's was. Just because you don't like the regime does not mean you have to deny reality. The only virtue that Assad's regime has is that it i secular and keeps religious fanatics at bay for the sake of public order. That's not much I know but if I lived there that would be good enough for me compared to the rest of the Middle East.

6 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:23:30am

re: #5 Destro

Bullshit. Assad is as secular dictatorship like Saddam's was. Just because you don't like the regime does not mean you have to deny reality.

I'm glad you're now acknowledging at least that it's a dictatorship (though that's actually pretty inaccurate, Assad not being the sole power-holder, but closer) rather than socialist. But as to being secular, can you explain why a secular country requires all laws to be based in Islamic jurisprudence? In what way is that secular?

7 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:25:21am

re: #2 Obdicut

re: #3 Stoatly

How many Christians have been persecuted in Syria for being Christian? Is alcohol banned there? Do women where bee keeper suits in Syria or be jailed?

What is your definition of secular if that does not qualify?

Syria is the only place outside of Saddam's Iraq where Christians not only live in relative peace and prosperity but were not denied their religious rights and where you could be an atheist or a apostate and not get killed.

So yea, one up for Assad compared to the scumbags the USA and her love partner Saudi Arabia are backing.

8 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:26:24am

re: #6 Obdicut

I'm glad you're now acknowledging at least that it's a dictatorship (though that's actually pretty inaccurate, Assad not being the sole power-holder, but closer) rather than socialist. But as to being secular, can you explain why a secular country requires all laws to be based in Islamic jurisprudence? In what way is that secular?

In Syria, that was done by the Ba'athists to placate Sunnis who were agitating. It was not always the case in Syria.

This is the best I could find online on the Syrian constitution:

[Link: www.acihl.org...]

It should be noted that previous Syrian constitutions, prior to the 1973 constitution did not mention any reference to Islam as religion of the state in Syria.

But Syria is a one party dictatorship so constitutions are pretty much window dressings there but to make any sort of claim that Assad's Syria is an Islamist nation is bonkers - to me it is on the level of denying reality and thinking the world is flat.

9 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:27:13am

Also, I'm an enormous idiot this morning for mixing up Syria and Libya. Luckily, Gaddafi was also a non-secular dictator.

10 Archangelus  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:27:38am

re: #5 Destro

Bullshit. Assad is as secular dictatorship like Saddam's was. Just because you don't like the regime does not mean you have to deny reality.

No, D, calling either of those countries (of which I know more than i'd like to) secular is a mistake at best. While Syria is not as extreme in comparison to other Arab countries, it is still rather religious - and Iraq under Saddam and in general was nowhere near secular despite the fact that the Ba'ath party seemed so in its early days.
The only reason religion is in the back burner in both countries is due to the fact that national, ethnic and Pan-Arab issues were the driving force behind both Assad and Saddam's rise to power (though differently between them). Furthermore, the fact of the fractured nature of both countries, with the multiple religious sects vying for respect and power until today, meant and continues to mean that emphasizing religious aspects that differ between factions would be a risk to their power.

11 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:28:37am

re: #7 Destro

How many Christians have been persecuted in Syria for being Christian? Is alcohol banned there? Do women where bee keeper suits in Syria or be jailed?

What is your definition of secular if that does not qualify?

My definition of secular is the real one: the state of being separate from religion. A system of law based on religious law is not secular.

Is there some reason you think that defining secular as being separate from religion is wrong?

12 Archangelus  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:29:25am

re: #11 Obdicut

the state of being separate from religion.

And by that simple rule, neither Syria nor Iraq would apply. Hell, Saddam added the words "Allah Ackbar" (God is great) to the country's flag.

13 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:35:59am

re: #12 Archangelus

And by that simple rule, neither Syria nor Iraq would apply. Hell, Saddam added the words "Allah Ackbar" (God is great) to the country's flag.

Well, it doesn't have to be a bright line. Our government has portions of it that are non-secular; almost all our anti-abortion laws are based in Christian teaching. So we have a mostly secular government with some unfortunate streaks of non-secularism in it. And, of course, we have 'in god we trust' on our money.

But in Syria, all legislation really is required to adhere to Islamic jurisprudence. All of it. So that very firmly and obviously makes it not a secular form of government.

Obviously, Gaddafi, creator of the "Islamic legion" wasn't secular either.

14 Archangelus  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:37:47am

re: #13 Obdicut

I know, just didn't feel like typing a lot when I wrote that so decided to keep it short and to the point :)

15 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:40:28am

re: #12 Archangelus

And by that simple rule, neither Syria nor Iraq would apply. Hell, Saddam added the words "Allah Ackbar" (God is great) to the country's flag.

When did Saddam add that, was it during the time his regime was under threat from the USA for 20 some odd years and he needed to rally his people round the flag?


And the USA has "In God We Trust" on our money. I guess the USA is not a secular nation either.

16 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:43:32am

re: #15 Destro

Saddam's government was actually pretty secular, especially by comparison. He became less so as he used religion as a tool to appeal to fanatics. Of course, he wasn't a socialist, so your claim is still wrong.

And Syria and Libya were both much more religious in their government than Iraq.

17 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:46:42am

re: #15 Destro

When did Saddam add that, was it during the time his regime was under threat from the USA for 20 some odd years and he needed to rally his people round the flag?

And the USA has "In God We Trust" on our money. I guess the USA is not a secular nation either.

Why didn't Saddam try not threatening others and not starving his people to build his palaces? Oh, that's right: Because those who rule be fear as he did think they'll be killed if they back down. But tyrants have no legitimacy anyways, so it matters little. Saddam Hussein caused his own isolation, and caused Iraq's misery. Blame him, not the US.

18 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:47:16am

re: #13 Obdicut

Well, it doesn't have to be a bright line. Our government has portions of it that are non-secular; almost all our anti-abortion laws are based in Christian teaching. So we have a mostly secular government with some unfortunate streaks of non-secularism in it. And, of course, we have 'in god we trust' on our money.

But in Syria, all legislation really is required to adhere to Islamic jurisprudence. All of it. So that very firmly and obviously makes it not a secular form of government.

Obviously, Gaddafi, creator of the "Islamic legion" wasn't secular either.

Gaddafi and Assad were pretty loose about religion - Assad's regime was forced to add some sort of deference to Islamists after a revolt there in the late 60s but in reality that meant nothing. Syria still was secular for all practical purposes. Qaddafi was nuts but he did not impose sharia law on his people.

We would have been better off if Qaddafi's son took over Libya - educated in London - and maybe - against all hope - modernized it somehow. It's a long shot but this is a cluster fuck right now in Libya and Egypt brought to you by American intervention through the offices of those psychos in Saudi Arabia.

Give me Assad Ba'athist any day over a Saudi backed jihadi.

19 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:48:12am

re: #16 Obdicut

Saddam's government was actually pretty secular, especially by comparison. He became less so as he used religion as a tool to appeal to fanatics. Of course, he wasn't a socialist, so your claim is still wrong.

And Syria and Libya were both much more religious in their government than Iraq.

Iraq had universal health care and state owned enterprises. Socialist.

20 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:51:10am
21 Locker  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:52:48am

Against my hope I'm quite sure that we'll find out all about the films makers then the left will blame the right. The right will blame Obama and no one in this country will consider the fact that no matter how offensive that movie is, you don't get to freaking kill people over it.

I have no doubt that if the religious fundamentalists in this country could get away with it they'd do the exact same thing. I'm quite sure, if things were as they are in Libya, people like Sandra Fluke would have been killed in a religious attack.

There are definitely foreign policy arguments to not offending governments, etc. I get that but we should not put up with this crap from anyone. It makes me want to create T-shirts with Allah's head up his ass just to say "Fuck you assholes, I can say what I want!".

This is the fault of unchecked religious xenophobia. Look in the mirror America, a large portion of our citizenry wants the exact same environment in this country.

22 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:57:41am

re: #18 Destro

Assad's regime always, always had in place, with force of law, that all legislation in the country had to be based in Islamic jurisprudence. That is not secular.

Can you explain why you think laws that have to adhere to religion are secular, please?

23 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 6:58:34am

re: #19 Destro

Iraq had universal health care and state owned enterprises. Socialist.

Did the people actually control them, or did an authoritarian dictatorship?

24 Archangelus  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:01:35am

re: #15 Destro

And the USA has "In God We Trust" on our money. I guess the USA is not a secular nation either.

Care to tell me where in the bible that the line "In God we trust" comes from? Because "Allah Ackbar", otherwise known as the Takbir, is in the Koran and is a VERY prominent part of Islamic prayer (chanted at the start of the obligatory prayers AND the call echoed by Muazzins in the Arab world calling Muslims to come pray).

I studied about Christianity quite a lot along with other religions, so could one of you folks tell me where's the part I clearly missed about how Christians start every prayer with chanting "In God we trust" repeatedly for a 2-3 minutes?

25 Locker  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:02:14am

re: #24 Archangelus

Christians don't chant foolio.

26 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:02:46am

re: #21 Locker

The blame Obama gets is:

A) for backing regime change that allowed these types into power


B) for not protecting our people on the ground - it's as if they did not want to acknowledge that Libya was a cluster fuck of Islamism after the revolution - especially the Benghazi area and especially after an attempt had been made on the British ambassador's life in the country.

C) Not having or heeding any intelligence on the ground that this was brewing.

Sorry, I back Obama when I can but I don't give him a pass. I am also afriad Romeny may use this against Obama - as he should - but Romney has no clue what to do either.

27 Locker  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:03:50am

re: #26 Destro

The blame Obama gets is:

A) for backing regime change that allowed these types into power

B) for not protecting our people on the ground - it's as if they did not want to acknowledge that Libya was a cluster fuck of Islamism after the revolution - especially the Benghazi area and especially after an attempt had been made on the British ambassador's life in the country.

C) Not having or heeding any intelligence on the ground that this was brewing.

Sorry, I back Obama when I can but I don't give him a pass. I am also afriad Romeny may use this against Obama - as he should - but Romney has no clue what to do either.

Now offer solutions for each of your letters. Please.

28 Archangelus  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:04:23am

re: #25 Locker

That part was sarcasm (should have made it more obvious)...

29 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:04:25am

re: #22 Obdicut

Assad's regime always, always had in place, with force of law, that all legislation in the country had to be based in Islamic jurisprudence. That is not secular.

Can you explain why you think laws that have to adhere to religion are secular, please?

You seriously think Assad's window dressing to the Islamists in his country disqualify Syria as being a secular regime? It's a dictatorship and you think they are paying attention to how laws are passed?

30 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:07:10am

re: #27 Locker

Now offer solutions for each of your letters. Please.

Why should I offer solutions? Do I work for the State Dept? It maybe too late to repair anything in Libya.

Why do Americans forget the tale of Humpty Dumpty?

31 Locker  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:07:44am

re: #30 Destro

Why should I offer solutions? Do I work for the State Dept? It maybe too late to repair anything in Libya.

Why do Americans forget the tale of Humpty Dumpty?

Why? Because, just as my mom taught me before I was 8 years old..

Don't fucking complain if you don't have a solution.

32 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:07:54am

re: #29 Destro

You seriously think Assad's window dressing to the Islamists in his country disqualify Syria as being a secular regime? ?

That it's window-dressing is an assertion by you. Is there some reason you think that in a country that's virtually 100% Muslim, many of whom are deeply devout, that the government is really made entirely of people who don't want their religious faith encoded in law?

It's a dictatorship and you think they are paying attention to how laws are passed

I thought it was socialist. It can't both be socialist and a dictatorship, so can you please make up your fucking mind?

33 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:08:29am

Destro is like inverse Killgore with a splash of Buck.

34 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:12:14am

re: #24 Archangelus

Care to tell me where in the bible that the line "In God we trust" comes from? Because "Allah Ackbar", otherwise known as the Takbir, is in the Koran and is a VERY prominent part of Islamic prayer (chanted at the start of the obligatory prayers AND the call echoed by Muazzins in the Arab world calling Muslims to come pray).

I studied about Christianity quite a lot along with other religions, so could one of you folks tell me where's the part I clearly missed about how Christians start every prayer with chanting "In God we trust" repeatedly for a 2-3 minutes?

When "In God We Trust" was added to the money in 1956 the USA used to have prayers in public schools up until 1962.

35 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:13:00am

re: #31 Locker

Why? Because, just as my mom taught me before I was 8 years old..

Don't fucking complain if you don't have a solution.

I am not complaining, wanker, I am blaming. Two different things.

36 Locker  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:14:07am

re: #35 Destro

I am not complaining, wanker, I am blaming. Two different things.

No, it's not two different things. It's the exact same thing. You are bitching as if you know better than the President.

Bitching and blaming assume that YOU know better. If you know better than what do you know? What is your grand plan by which you can criticize the President for something which you have ZERO knowledge?

37 Archangelus  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:14:47am

Unless you can show me that every non-Christian was forced to participate in those, then your comparison is ridiculous - And the fact that it was ceased by US courts while never the case in Iraq or other Islamic states just strengthens my original point

38 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:16:14am

re: #32 Obdicut

That it's window-dressing is an assertion by you. Is there some reason you think that in a country that's virtually 100% Muslim, many of whom are deeply devout, that the government is really made entirely of people who don't want their religious faith encoded in law?

I thought it was socialist. It can't both be socialist and a dictatorship, so can you please make up your fucking mind?

Syria is not virtually 100% Muslim. The Christians are over 10% of the population.

Then we have a mix of religions, some not even considered Muslim.

39 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:18:15am

re: #36 Locker

No, it's not two different things. It's the exact same thing. You are bitching as if you know better than the President.

Bitching and blaming assume that YOU know better. If you know better than what do you know? What is your grand plan by which you can criticize the President for something which you have ZERO knowledge?

I can see the results and what happened in Libya is on Obama's head. It's 9/11 - a anti-Mohammed film is coming out - make some calls.

40 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:19:52am

re: #37 Archangelus

Unless you can show me that every non-Christian was forced to participate in those, then your comparison is ridiculous - And the fact that it was ceased by US courts while never the case in Iraq or other Islamic states just strengthens my original point

Iraq had Christians in high office in the Saddam regime. How many Christians in Saudi Arabia? And I never heard one report of Christians being discriminated in Saddam's Iraq for being Christians or having that hold them back from operating a liquor business or any sort of employment.

41 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:21:09am

re: #38 Destro

Syria is not virtually 100% Muslim. The Christians are over 10% of the population.

Then we have a mix of religions, some not even considered Muslim.

Care to deal with the actually important part of what I posted? Why do you think that in a country that's overwhelming devout Muslims, with devout Muslims in the government, and it written into their goddamn laws that all laws have to obey Islamic jurisprudence, that it's really actually secular?

What possible logic do you have for that bullshit?

And why on earth do you think a place can be socialist and a dictatorship at once? What fucking stupid GOP definition of socialism are you using?

42 Locker  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:22:01am

re: #39 Destro

I can see the results and what happened in Libya is on Obama's head. It's 9/11 - a anti-Mohammed film is coming out - make some calls.

So basically you don't have any solutions. You know exactly DICK about:

Not having or heeding any intelligence on the ground that this was brewing.

You know Jack and Squat about how the President protects our people on the ground. You know NOTHING about the decisions the President makes about ANYTHING.

You are just a whiny little bitch who complains and complains but can't back up their crap and can't fix a single problem they scream about at the top of their lungs.

Let me add this for emphasis... you are a whiny little bitch. You've now got Buck status meaning I don't see you, I don't hear you and I couldn't care less about what you have to babble on about.

Fuck off.

43 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:22:32am

re: #32 Obdicut

I thought it was socialist. It can't both be socialist and a dictatorship, so can you please make up your fucking mind?

Seriously, what the fuck do they teach in America?

Socialist is an economic system. You can be capitalist or market based and a dictatorship (Pinochet's Chile) and you can be a dictatorship and socialist (Cuba).

And you can be a democracy and socialist also, see Norway or France.

44 Archangelus  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:22:53am

re: #38 Destro

Religious breakdown of Syria:

88% Muslim, of which:
74% Muslim Sunnis
11% Muslim Alawites (Shiites)
3% Druze

10% Christian
2% various small sects

45 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:23:38am

re: #20 Destro

No one starved in Iraq until the sanctions. The American baby killing sanctions (500,000 babies killed so we can have a clusterfuck democracy in Iraq). Uncle Son of Sam, mass murdering baby killer.

It is rotten for you to compare the US to a serial killer. Especially since the Oil-for-Food program allowed Iraq to sell enough oil to feed itself. But instead of buying powered milk for babies, Saddam diverted the money to Pakistan to buy guidance systems for missiles. Instead of using construction equipment to maintain Iraq's irrigation systems, Saddam used it to build more palaces that he did not live in. America did not starve Iraq, Saddam Hussein starved Iraq.

46 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:25:00am

re: #41 Obdicut

Care to deal with the actually important part of what I posted? Why do you think that in a country that's overwhelming devout Muslims, with devout Muslims in the government, and it written into their goddamn laws that all laws have to obey Islamic jurisprudence, that it's really actually secular?

What possible logic do you have for that bullshit?

And why on earth do you think a place can be socialist and a dictatorship at once? What fucking stupid GOP definition of socialism are you using?

Your attempt to portray Assad's Syria as a Sharia following Islamist state is bizarre and has no bearing in reality.

Bashar al-Assad, President of Syria, discusses Syria as a secular state @ [Link: www.dailymotion.com...]

47 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:25:50am

re: #44 Archangelus

Religious breakdown of Syria:

88% Muslim, of which:
74% Muslim Sunnis
11% Muslim Alawites (Shiites)
3% Druze

10% Christian
2% various small sects

That is not virtually 100% Muslim is it? I know the USA ranks down the list in math education but come on.

48 lostlakehiker  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:27:30am

re: #21 Locker

Against my hope I'm quite sure that we'll find out all about the films makers then the left will blame the right. The right will blame Obama and no one in this country will consider the fact that no matter how offensive that movie is, you don't get to freaking kill people over it.

I have no doubt that if the religious fundamentalists in this country could get away with it they'd do the exact same thing. I'm quite sure, if things were as they are in Libya, people like Sandra Fluke would have been killed in a religious attack.

There are definitely foreign policy arguments to not offending governments, etc. I get that but we should not put up with this crap from anyone. It makes me want to create T-shirts with Allah's head up his ass just to say "Fuck you assholes, I can say what I want!".

This is the fault of unchecked religious xenophobia. Look in the mirror America, a large portion of our citizenry wants the exact same environment in this country.

When was the last time an American Christian mob stormed an embassy, killing an ambassador? Never, of course. There simply isn't any evidence in history or in current events for your charge. Religious extremists in the U.S., the worst ones, the ones who would resort to campaigns of murder and mayhem, are like Aum Shinrikyo in Japan---fringe outliers, without any mass backing or any wider institutional legitimacy. They can't gin up a mob. No one outside their closed circle sympathizes.

By contrast, in Libya and Egypt and beyond, these guys have real market share, real mass popularity.

49 [deleted]  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:28:32am
50 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:30:19am

re: #43 Destro

Socialist is an economic system. You can be capitalist or market based and a dictatorship (Pinochet's Chile) and you can be a dictatorship and socialist (Cuba).

You can't have an economic system without a political one, and the socialist economic system is one where social ownership of the means of production is the governing philosophy. You can't have social ownership in a dictatorship.

And you can be a democracy and socialist also, see Norway or France.

Norway and France have some socialist aspects, but the vast majority of their economic activity is capitalist. So, if you were defining them strictly along economic terms, you'd be wrong.

51 Archangelus  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:30:31am

re: #40 Destro


Do you even know anything about the Assyrian Christian minority in Iraq?
In a nutshell, they endured quite a bit o persecution during Saddam's Ba'athist regime. Many of them had to escape the country when Saddam assumed power, and many were deliberately put on the front lines during the long Iran-Iraq war as a means of reducing their numbers.

52 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:31:02am

re: #48 lostlakehiker

You missed his point. It's our society in general and system of laws that prevent this, not the particular religion involved.

53 Locker  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:33:14am

re: #48 lostlakehiker

I think you emphasized my point as it's about "market share". They can't get away with it here so they don't... but we've got dead abortion doctors and home grown terrorists trying and sometimes succeeding in blowing shit up.

The language is extremely similar with vile hate, lies and xenophobia right out there in the public eye. No shame, no fear. Seems a pretty obvious pattern.

54 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:33:41am

re: #47 Destro

That is not virtually 100% Muslim is it? I know the USA ranks down the list in math education but come on.

Sure. 88% is not virtually 100%. I was mistaken in saying that. Now can you address why a country that's 88% Muslim, with a government whose president is required to be Muslim, where all laws passed have to adhere to Islamic jurisprudence, is considered 'secular'?

55 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:34:00am

re: #53 Locker

And the abortion-doctor killers are often hidden and aided by those that sympathize with them, too.

56 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:34:45am

re: #51 Archangelus

Do you even know anything about the Assyrian Christian minority in Iraq?
In a nutshell, they endured quite a bit o persecution during Saddam's Ba'athist regime. Many of them had to escape the country when Saddam assumed power, and many were deliberately put on the front lines during the long Iran-Iraq war as a means of reducing their numbers.

Everything you wrote is bullshit and I do know a lot about eastern Christians.

[Link: www.christiansofiraq.com...]

DAMASCUS, Syria (AP) - In small but steady numbers, Iraqi Christians are moving to Syria to escape the threats and violence of Islamic extremists, say Iraqi Christian exiles.

[Link: www.christianpost.com...]

"If Assad falls, Christians in Syria are fearful of what will happen when a new government – probably a radical Islamic one – will come into power," Open Doors USA President and CEO Dr. Carl Moeller said in a statement. "Will their freedom to worship end? Will persecution increase? Will they have to flee Syria with their families as have thousands of believers in Iraq?"
Read more at [Link: www.christianpost.com...]

57 lostlakehiker  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:35:25am

re: #32 Obdicut

That it's window-dressing is an assertion by you. Is there some reason you think that in a country that's virtually 100% Muslim, many of whom are deeply devout, that the government is really made entirely of people who don't want their religious faith encoded in law?

I thought it was socialist. It can't both be socialist and a dictatorship, so can you please make up your fucking mind?

It can't be both socialist and a dictatorship? Huh? What was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, but both? "State Socialism". Wikipedia includes the Soviet Union as (at least arguably) a particular kind of socialism.

58 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:36:23am

re: #57 lostlakehiker

It can't be both socialist and a dictatorship? Huh? What was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, but both? "

A lie.

59 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:36:34am

Destro, your #49 just got deleted. That's a serious matter when that happens. A smart man would heed that warning and cool down the rhetoric.

60 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:37:01am

re: #54 Obdicut

Sure. 88% is not virtually 100%. I was mistaken in saying that. Now can you address why a country that's 88% Muslim, with a government whose president is required to be Muslim, where all laws passed have to adhere to Islamic jurisprudence, is considered 'secular'?

To say Syria is 88% Muslim is to deny the split between Shia and Sunni and is as stupid a thing to do as one can do when trying to figure the fuck out of the country.

61 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:38:24am

re: #60 Destro

To say Syria is 88% Muslim is

accurate.

I'm sorry, but at this point I think you just want negative attention, so I'm going to largely stop engaging with you except to point out the complete idiocy of your positions in brief summations.

Congrats on making progressives look like assholic ignorant fuckheads.

62 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:39:00am

re: #59 Dark_Falcon

What did I say @ #50?

63 Archangelus  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:39:06am

re: #47 Destro

Firstly, graduated beyond US borders from one of the world's top 100 rated universities, but my, what a lovely attempt at deflection, and with an implied insult to boot. However, I wasn't the one tossing the 100% figure, and that isn't the point. Islam represents the majority religion (by far, in comparison to the 10% Christians and the 2% others) in a country ruled by a de facto dictatorship (where the actual leadership was handed down from mass-murdering father to mass-murdering son). The minorities have no genuine power worth speaking of, no matter how much you may believe otherwise, and no matter how much you might try to portray it otherwise.

64 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:39:21am

re: #61 Obdicut

accurate.

I'm sorry, but at this point I think you just want negative attention, so I'm going to largely stop engaging with you except to point out the complete idiocy of your positions in brief summations.

Congrats on making progressives look like assholic ignorant fuckheads.

I am not a progressive and 88% Muslim (various sects that hate each other and don't consider the other Muslim) is not virtually 100% - see that makes you look like an ignorant fuckhead for saying that.

65 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:41:01am

re: #63 Archangelus

Firstly, graduated beyond US borders from one of the world's top 100 rated universities, but my, what a lovely attempt at deflection, and with an implied insult to boot. However, I wasn't the one tossing the 100% figure, and that isn't the point. Islam represents the majority religion (by far, in comparison to the 10% Christians and the 2% others) in a country ruled by a de facto dictatorship (where the actual leadership was handed down from mass-murdering father to mass-murdering son). The minorities have no genuine power worth speaking of, no matter how much you may believe otherwise, and no matter how much you might try to portray it otherwise.

I was not insulting you I insulted the math of the person who made the claim that Syria was 100% virtually Muslim.

66 lostlakehiker  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:41:35am

re: #53 Locker

I think you emphasized my point as it's about "market share". They can't get away with it here so they don't... but we've got dead abortion doctors and home grown terrorists trying and sometimes succeeding in blowing shit up.

The language is extremely similar with vile hate, lies and xenophobia right out there in the public eye. No shame, no fear. Seems a pretty obvious pattern.

My point is that in Libya or Egypt, a sample of civilians who just happen to be at an incident will include a large fraction who sympathize with the extremist. In America, no would-be assassin of abortion doctors can go out on the street and invite random passers-by to join him, and find himself at the head of a parade.

We are agreed that it's about market share. But you are mistaken about the size of the market share enjoyed by American religious extremists.

67 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:42:40am

re: #62 Destro

It was actually your #49, where you refused to retract calling the US a serial killer.

68 Archangelus  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:43:47am

re: #56 Destro

Courtesy of Wikipedia:
"When Hussein first assumed power, the Assyrian population there numbered 2 million to 2.5 million. Many have fled to neighboring countries such as Jordan and Syria, or have emigrated to Europe and the U.S. The United Nations High Commission for Refugees reports that half a million Iraqi Christians have registered for temporary asylum in Syria.."

And unless you have actively studied the full-fledged history of the Iran-Iraq war, think twice before referring to a well documented historical fact (which wasn't unique to Iraq, by the way - Iran did the same with the Assyrian populace it had, some of which had fled to the country from Saddam's Iraq to begin with) as bullshit.

69 Archangelus  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:44:55am

re: #65 Destro

Show me when and where I made such a claim - right here, right now.

70 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:46:08am

re: #65 Destro

I was not insulting you I insulted the math of the person who made the claim that Syria was 100% virtually Muslim.

Feel free to keep beating that horse, but you see, I made an error and acknowledged it, an since it wasn't central to my point, it doesn't actually detract from my argument.

Carry on.

71 jc717  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:48:23am

re: #43 Destro

I thought it was socialist. It can't both be socialist and a dictatorship, so can you please make up your fucking mind?

Seriously, what the fuck do they teach in America?

Socialist is an economic system. You can be capitalist or market based and a dictatorship (Pinochet's Chile) and you can be a dictatorship and socialist (Cuba).

And you can be a democracy and socialist also, see Norway or France.

Why was this dinged down? It's 100% accurate.

72 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:49:52am

re: #67 Dark_Falcon

It was actually your #49, where you refused to retract calling the US a serial killer.

Yea, I stand by that statement.

73 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:50:42am

re: #69 Archangelus

Show me when and where I made such a claim - right here, right now.

I said it was not you who made that statement. Obdicut did.

74 Archangelus  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:52:11am

re: #65 Destro

I was not insulting you .

Quote of your response to me:
"That is not virtually 100% Muslim is it? I know the USA ranks down the list in math education but come on."

Implication - your figure is wrong, and it's wrong because you suck at math like most Americans

75 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:52:46am

re: #68 Archangelus

Courtesy of Wikipedia:
"When Hussein first assumed power, the Assyrian population there numbered 2 million to 2.5 million. Many have fled to neighboring countries such as Jordan and Syria, or have emigrated to Europe and the U.S. The United Nations High Commission for Refugees reports that half a million Iraqi Christians have registered for temporary asylum in Syria.."

And unless you have actively studied the full-fledged history of the Iran-Iraq war, think twice before referring to a well documented historical fact (which wasn't unique to Iraq, by the way - Iran did the same with the Assyrian populace it had, some of which had fled to the country from Saddam's Iraq to begin with) as bullshit.

The vast majority of Iraqi Christians fled Saddam's Iraq after the US invasion and Saddam was toppled. Saddam protected and left the Christians alone when it came to their faith.

76 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:54:32am

re: #71 jc717

Why was this dinged down? It's 100% accurate.

Because you have people here that don't want their reality challenged. That now want to tell us that Assad's Syria is an islamist regime for example and not a secular socialist regime.

77 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:56:10am

re: #72 Destro

Fine, then FOAD.

78 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:57:29am

re: #74 Archangelus

Quote:
"That is not virtually 100% Muslim is it? I know the USA ranks down the list in math education but come on."

Implication - your figure is wrong, and it's wrong because you suck at math like most Americans

The virtually 100% claim came from Obdicut and was directed at him and yea, Americans do suck at math. Test scores don't lie.

79 Locker  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:57:41am

re: #66 lostlakehiker

My only statement about our market share was "large portion" but that's fairly ambiguous. My opinion would be that 30-40% of our citizens might not join an abortion doctor lynching but would sympathize or feel it was justified.

Mob psychology seems to indicate it wouldn't take much to incite the sympathizers under the proper conditions. Once people think their hate is ok or justified it seems to steamroll.

80 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:58:24am

re: #71 jc717

Why was this dinged down? It's 100% accurate.

It's not. Socialism requires that the means of production be under the control of the people. In a dictatorship or authoritarian regime, this is not possible. Furthermore, if you're defining socialism only as an economic system, then Norway and France are not socialist, since the majority of their economies are privately owned.

81 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:58:58am

re: #79 Locker

We've had plenty of lynchings in this country.

82 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 7:59:02am

re: #77 Dark_Falcon

Fine, then FOAD.

The USA said FOAD to 500,000 Iraqi babies.

83 Archangelus  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:00:53am

An acquaintance of mine is a Syrian Christian whose family escaped the country several years ago. They suffered quite heavily due to religious persecution. I'd like to see you dare to tell him or his family that they're lying about their accounts after all they had to endure.

You are desperately trying to portray things in a lilly-white manner that is fundamentally disconnected from the reality, and you're sticking by it simply because you need it to justify your unrealistic perspective.

84 Locker  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:01:10am

re: #81 Obdicut

Absolutely. Was just trying to address his point that a modern, "abortion doctor lyncher" probably can't ask the general public near his target to join in on the killing. Which I think is accurate but with a bit more market share it's not much of a stretch, in my opinion.

85 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:02:49am

re: #80 Obdicut

It's not. Socialism requires that the means of production be under the control of the people. In a dictatorship or authoritarian regime, this is not possible. Furthermore, if you're defining socialism only as an economic system, then Norway and France are not socialist, since the majority of their economies are privately owned.

No love for the dictatorship of the proletariat?

86 Locker  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:08:08am

re: #80 Obdicut

It's not. Socialism requires that the means of production be under the control of the people. In a dictatorship or authoritarian regime, this is not possible. Furthermore, if you're defining socialism only as an economic system, then Norway and France are not socialist, since the majority of their economies are privately owned.

Gonna have to agree with you on this one. A dictatorship calling it's system "socialist" doesn't make it so, regardless of how many bumper stickers are thrown around.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

After disposing of the Bourgeois dictatorship through socialist revolution, Leninists seek to create a socialist state in which the working class would be in power, which they see as being essential for laying the foundations for a transitional withering of the state towards communism (Stateless society). In this state, the vanguard party would act as a central nucleus in the organisation of socialist society, presiding over a single-party political system. Leninism rejects political pluralism, seeing it as divisive and destructive. Instead, Leninism advocates the concept of democratic centralism as a process to ensure the voicing of concern and disagreement and to refine policy. Generally, the purpose of democratic centralism is "diversity in ideas, unity in action."

87 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:09:43am

re: #83 Archangelus

An acquaintance of mine is a Syrian Christian whose family escaped the country several years ago. They suffered quite heavily due to religious persecution. I'd like to see you dare to tell him or his family that they're lying about their accounts after all they had to endure.

You are desperately trying to portray things in a lilly-white manner that is fundamentally disconnected from the reality, and you're sticking by it simply because you need it to justify your unrealistic perspective.

Yea, I can make up anecdotal evidence as well online.

Here is actual evidence:

[Link: www.mei.nus.edu.sg...]

To its western critics Syria is an autocratic regime that promotes extremism. It is listed by the US as a state sponsor of terrorism because of its backing for militant Islamist groups such as Hizbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

But despite restrictions on political activity, the country of 20m people can claim to be one of the most secular in the Middle East – where Christian minority members say they can party and worship without discrimination. “I can tell you we have total freedom to express ourselves and our rituals,” says Mutaz Zarour, who adds that the festival is about “our existence”, loyalty and faith.

Christian leaders caution against unwittingly strengthening the hand of radical Muslims. “We want the west to pay attention to this problem,” Bishop Absi says. “It is why I ask the west not to pressure Syria, because if Syria is invaded by fundamentalism all the Near East is finished.”

The Financial Times, UK - 16 Sept 08


Also

Youtube Video

Persecution of Christians by 'Free Syrian Army'

Mother Agnes Mariam De Le Croix describes persecution and eviction of Christians at the hands of the 'Free Syrian Army.' She also echoes other whitness testimony in claiming that the rebels carried out the Houla massacre and other atrocities.

88 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:12:33am

re: #86 Locker

Gonna have to agree with you on this one. A dictatorship calling it's system "socialist" doesn't make it so, regardless of how many bumper stickers are thrown around.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

He is arguing you can't have a socialist economy and a one party dictatorship. Sure, there are some dictatorships that claim they are socialists and are not or claim they are free market and are not but you can have a dictatorship that also does have a true socialist govt. See Cuba.

89 jc717  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:18:54am

re: #80 Obdicut

It's not. Socialism requires that the means of production be under the control of the people. In a dictatorship or authoritarian regime, this is not possible. Furthermore, if you're defining socialism only as an economic system, then Norway and France are not socialist, since the
majority of their economies are privately owned.

By your definition, socialism doesn't exist anywhere in the world (can you provide any examples?)

So in your opinion, Cuba and Venezuela are not socialist?

90 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:26:16am

Seriously? I got downdinged for posting a fact that "TThe vast majority of Iraqi Christians fled Saddam's Iraq after the US invasion and Saddam was toppled. Saddam protected and left the Christians alone when it came to their faith."

[Link: www.catholicnews.com...]


Iraqi Christians were safer under Saddam, says Vatican official

Although Iraq has a democratic government, Iraqi Christians were safer and had more protection under former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, said the future head of the Vatican's interreligious dialogue council.

"Power is in the hands of the strongest -- the Shiites -- and the country is sinking into a sectarian civil war (between Sunni and Shiite Muslims) in which not even Christians are spared," he said.

Christians, "paradoxically, were more protected under the dictatorship," he said.


[Link: www.pbs.org...]

Why Did Assad, Saddam and Mubarak Protect Christians?


Since the start of the Iraq war in 2003, however, much the community has fled the country, diminishing its population within Iraq's borders by about half.

Under Saddam Hussein, Iraq was ruled by the Baath party, a secular government. Hussein himself was a Sunni Muslim; Sunni Muslims comprise about 35 percent of Iraqis.

Since Hussein's government was a minority government. Other minorities, including Christians, "felt much more protected under the Hussein regime than they do currently," says Brian Katulis of the Center for American Progress.

How did the Christians benefit from Saddam Hussein?
"There was a kind of a social contract in Iraq," between minorities and Hussein, says Adeed Dawisha, a professor at the University of Miami in Ohio. "Under Saddam, it was understood that if you don't interfere in politics, then you are provided with a good life."

"If the Christians supported Saddam, not because they loved what he was doing, it was the fear of the alternative," Dawisha says. As a result of turning their focus elsewhere, Christians prospered economically. They were businessmen, doctors, lawyers, and engineers. A select few were part of the political elite, like Tariq Aziz who served as foreign minister and deputy prime minister under Hussein.

According to Katulis, that created a "network of protection that existed through some of the leaders [in] Saddam's inner circle ... trickled on down through community."


Syria is a minority rule system, with Shia Alawite Muslims -- who comprise only a small percentage of the population -- wielding the most power, and with the Druze, Ismailis and Christians also playing important roles.

As the rest of the world turns on Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, who is an Alawite, Syria's Christian population is steadfastly pulling for the dictator - and has for years.

What's in it for them?
Christians get "very good business contracts, positions in government and the Syrian military," says Andrew Tabler of The Washington Institute. "They get preferential treatment and protection of their places of worship."

Because of this, Syria's Christians have access to scholarships and opportunities to study abroad. It's not surprising then that this minority plays an outsized role in Syria's diplomatic life. Syria's ambassador to France is Lamia Chakkor, a Christian whose father was a senior figure in Syria's police and whose family ties helped her get the job. (You may remember her as the victim of a hoax resignation on France24 back in July.)

What's in it for Assad?
For one thing, Syria's Christians are "some of the most strident supporters of Assad," according to Tabler. "They're bridges to other countries and the international community. Assad thinks that helps the broader public perception of his regime."

How does Assad keep them loyal?
Besides ambassadorships?

On and on.

91 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:29:54am

re: #89 jc717

By your definition, socialism doesn't exist anywhere in the world (can you provide any examples?)

So in your opinion, Cuba and Venezuela are not socialist?

re: #80 Obdicut

Obdicut is just arguing as flak because he does not want any sympathy shown toward Assad's Syria or maybe any criticisms towards Obama.

I am being downdinged for stating obvious reality based facts - we have people on this thread arguing Saddam Hussein persecuted Iraqi Christians and that Syria is an Islamist regime that is not secular to try and defend their goal posts.

92 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:38:15am

re: #91 Destro

No, Destro, you're getting downdinged for being an asshole. You fling insults far too freely and your hatred for America is offensive to most of the people who post on LGF.

93 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:41:53am

re: #92 Dark_Falcon

I don't hate America. I hate what America does (mostly overseas). I'll work on the insults on my part. But I can't take deception or claims of false realities calmly.

94 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:44:37am

re: #93 Destro

When you compare a nation to a serial killer, then in my opinion you hate that nation.

95 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:48:05am

re: #94 Dark_Falcon

When you compare a nation to a serial killer, then in my opinion you hate that nation.

The USA created a policy in which caused the deaths of 500,000 (Lancet study) infants as part of a foreign policy initiative.

Serial killers don't get that high a body count.

96 Archangelus  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:51:22am

To quote Dark_Falcon - "The Oil-for-Food program allowed Iraq to sell enough oil to feed itself. But instead of buying powered milk for babies, Saddam diverted the money to Pakistan to buy guidance systems for missiles. Instead of using construction equipment to maintain Iraq's irrigation systems, Saddam used it to build more palaces that he did not live in. America did not starve Iraq, Saddam Hussein starved Iraq"

97 KingKenrod  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:53:36am

re: #93 Destro

I don't hate America. I hate what America does (mostly overseas). I'll work on the insults on my part. But I can't take deception or claims of false realities calmly.

The US has a process for righting wrongs. Does Assad? Did Hussein?

You "hate what America does" so much that you openly sympathize (your word) with the likes of Assad and make excuses for him.

98 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:54:30am

re: #96 Archangelus

To quote Dark_Falcon - "The Oil-for-Food program allowed Iraq to sell enough oil to feed itself. But instead of buying powered milk for babies, Saddam diverted the money to Pakistan to buy guidance systems for missiles. Instead of using construction equipment to maintain Iraq's irrigation systems, Saddam used it to build more palaces that he did not live in. America did not starve Iraq, Saddam Hussein starved Iraq"

Exactly. Destro, I would submit the point to you in this way: The United States of America cannot be blamed for Saddam Hussein's murderous and wrong decisions. It was his decision to invade Kuwait that cause sanctions to be imposed on Iraq and it was his insistence on aggrandizing himself over feeding his citizens that caused those deaths.

99 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:54:41am

re: #96 Archangelus

To quote Dark_Falcon - "The Oil-for-Food program allowed Iraq to sell enough oil to feed itself. But instead of buying powered milk for babies, Saddam diverted the money to Pakistan to buy guidance systems for missiles. Instead of using construction equipment to maintain Iraq's irrigation systems, Saddam used it to build more palaces that he did not live in. America did not starve Iraq, Saddam Hussein starved Iraq"

And the moral upright USA was OK with that leading to 500,000 dead infants.

100 Archangelus  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:57:04am

Of course, because all US presidents, politicians, policy advisers and anyone involved in US foreign policy have access to time machines and/or are clairvoyant!
/

101 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 8:57:41am

re: #97 KingKenrod

The US has a process for righting wrongs. Does Assad? Did Hussein?

You "hate what America does" so much that you openly sympathize (your word) with the likes of Assad and make excuses for him.

See, I don't have a problem with Assad being overthrown per say., I do have a problem with the USA instigating or helping Islamist groups bring down the regime.

So the USA using the Saudis (just like in Soviet Afghanistan days) overthrow Assad. Maybe the Christians (and Alawites and Shia) there won't be massacred like they were when the USA overthrew Saddam. Maybe.

But I am pretty sure Americans would ignore the deaths their blowback policies cause regardless. Like I wrote in comment #1 - Americans seem not to want to learn what the word blowback means even on the anniversary of the biggest blowback of recent memory 9/11.

102 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 9:02:22am

re: #99 Destro

And the moral upright USA was OK with that leading to 500,000 dead infants.

What was the alternative? Letting Saddam import more anti-tank missiles and parts for his tanks? He would have used such things to threaten his neighbors and tyrannize the innocent. Should our concern for the babies Saddam Hussein deprived of food have lead us to allow him ballistic missiles to launch at us?

I'd have to answer "No, we were not obligated to endanger our allies in such a fashion. Neither the UN Charter nor the UN's treaty on human rights was intended as a suicide pact.

103 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 9:09:04am

re: #102 Dark_Falcon

What was the alternative? Letting Saddam import more anti-tank missiles and parts for his tanks? He would have used such things to threaten his neighbors and tyrannize the innocent. Should our concern for the babies Saddam Hussein deprived of food have lead us to allow him ballistic missiles to launch at us?

I'd have to answer "No, we were not obligated to endanger our allies in such a fashion. Neither the UN Charter nor the UN's treaty on human rights was intended as a suicide pact.

I don't know, I kind of like the idea of Saddam Hussein liberating the people of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait from their tyrannical regimes. Women would then be allowed to drive on the streets and Saudi wahabist religious fanatics would be dunked in acid tanks. Osama Bin Laden, who wanted to mount a jihad against the Iraqis for invading Kuwait would probably have been in such an acid tank early on.

104 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 9:41:01am

re: #103 Destro

That is the sickest shit I've heard on LGF since the Great Flouncing! "Saudi wahabist religious fanatics would be dunked in acid tanks"? If I said something like that you'd be calling me a "fascist pig"! You cannot argue a human rights perspective if you support human beings being murdered in horrific ways by Saddam's psychopathic sons Uday and Qusay and their ilk. Compared to the House of Saddam, the House of Saud is quite mild. But that's lost on you, prisoner of your own hates.

105 KingKenrod  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 9:43:52am

re: #103 Destro

I don't know, I kind of like the idea of Saddam Hussein liberating the people of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait from their tyrannical regimes. Women would then be allowed to drive on the streets and Saudi wahabist religious fanatics would be dunked in acid tanks. Osama Bin Laden, who wanted to mount a jihad against the Iraqis for invading Kuwait would probably have been in such an acid tank early on.

Not just sympathy for dictators, but heroic fantasies. A new low.

106 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 9:46:33am

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

That is the sickest shit I've heard on LGF since the Great Flouncing! "Saudi wahabist religious fanatics would be dunked in acid tanks"? If I said something like that you'd be calling me a "fascist pig"! You cannot argue a human rights perspective if you support human beings being murdered in horrific ways by Saddam's psychopathic sons Uday and Qusay and their ilk. Compared to the House of Saddam, the House of Saud is quite mild. But that's lost on you, prisoner of your own hates.

I was doing some Harry Turtledove alternate reality speculation. Would it be such a bad world if Saddam bumped off the Wahabist Saudis?

107 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 9:47:47am

re: #105 KingKenrod

So you have sympathies for Saudi dictators?

108 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 9:49:02am

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

I am pro Al-Qaeda wahabists being killed.

109 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 9:49:57am

re: #106 Destro

Destro, you were fantasizing about the torture-murder of human beings. I'd remind you that Saddam Hussein and his sons would not have stopped at adult males. They would have had the entire families of prominent princes murdered. Do you need to be reminded again of Saddam's rape rooms, of his prisons for children? Why in the name of all that is decent would want to put more people under the thumb of that horrific monster?

110 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 9:51:57am

re: #108 Destro

I am pro Al-Qaeda wahabists being killed.

OK, so you saying torturing people to death doesn't make you a fascist pig, as long as the people being killed are people you don't like. Do you even have a clue how bad you sound right now?

111 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 9:58:20am

re: #109 Dark_Falcon

Saddam's regime - with all that bad stuff is still better than Saudi Arabia.

112 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 9:59:13am

re: #110 Dark_Falcon

It's a nuanced view, for sure. But the world may have benefited by Saddam ruling Saudi Arabia over the current regime. Up to a point.

113 KingKenrod  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 10:02:29am

re: #107 Destro

So you have sympathies for Saudi dictators?

No, none. You on the other hand are on the record as sympathizing with Assad and Hussein, and so have no credibility in criticizing US policy or the attitudes of its citizens. I leave you to the misery of your broken moral compass.

114 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 11:30:04am

re: #89 jc717

By your definition, socialism doesn't exist anywhere in the world (can you provide any examples?)

Only a very few edge cases, yeah, otherwise socialism is largely untried as a complete economic system. The Mondragon commune is about the only place I can think of, and that's still an edge case.

So in your opinion, Cuba and Venezuela are not socialist?

No, they don't have the necessary level of freedom for the people to be socialist.

115 Obdicut  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 11:31:27am

re: #112 Destro

It's a nuanced view, for sure. But the world may have benefited by Saddam ruling Saudi Arabia over the current regime. Up to a point.

That's even stupider than our decision to invade Iraq.

116 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 11:37:14am

re: #115 Obdicut

That's even stupider than our decision to invade Iraq.

Saddam would have gotten rid of the wahabist state of Saudi Arabis replacing it with one based on Ba'athist values. Women can drive, wear jeans. Not be flogged in public. Science taught in schools.

117 Destro  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 11:40:02am

re: #113 KingKenrod

No, none. You on the other hand are on the record as sympathizing with Assad and Hussein, and so have no credibility in criticizing US policy or the attitudes of its citizens. I leave you to the misery of your broken moral compass.

I don't sympathize! I am calling for non-intervention and that those the USA are backing are potentially WORSE than the current regime.

When will that set in? When the regimes fall and the groups that get empowered after the regime falls organizes riots and storms an American embassy and kills our ambassador? Oh, wait......

118 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 12:53:19pm

re: #24 Archangelus

Care to tell me where in the bible that the line "In God we trust" comes from? Because "Allah Ackbar", otherwise known as the Takbir, is in the Koran and is a VERY prominent part of Islamic prayer (chanted at the start of the obligatory prayers AND the call echoed by Muazzins in the Arab world calling Muslims to come pray).

I studied about Christianity quite a lot along with other religions, so could one of you folks tell me where's the part I clearly missed about how Christians start every prayer with chanting "In God we trust" repeatedly for a 2-3 minutes?

Wait. Bryan Fischer will probably try to start that next.

119 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 12:53:30pm

re: #25 Locker

Christians don't chant foolio.

Gregorian.

120 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 12:59:05pm

re: #102 Dark_Falcon

That Lancet study was BS. They retracted it a few years later. That fact should have been challenged months ago, but there was so much more to challenge.

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 3:44:10pm

re: #71 jc717

Why was this dinged down? It's 100% accurate.

It's not the post that's being dinged down.

122 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Sep 12, 2012 3:59:18pm

re: #108 Destro

I am pro Al-Qaeda wahabists being killed.

As long as the right people do the killin'.


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