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1 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 2:21:40pm

I'm just curious. Is it accurate to conflate Arab culture with Islam? What's the total population of the Arab nations? Not billions.

2 researchok  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 2:22:16pm

It is tempting to blame 'Muslims' for the mayhem we see on TV, but in fact they are the biggest victims of generations of dysfunctional leaders throughout the MIddle East.

These kinds of reactions and hate we see are learned- and that means they are taught.

These leaders make sure their kids are taught hate because real education presents a threat. An educated citizen is a dangerous citizen, in their eyes.

Every major religion has texts with some very questionable passages.

Most major religions deemphasize those passages or neuter them, focusing rather on the positive aspects of their faith. That is how contemporary religions choose to deal with those less swavory aspects of their faith.

In Arab countries, those texts and passages that emphasize division and hate are taught. They are taught because that is how these dysfunctional leaders want their religion to be taught. Religion becomes and extension of a dysfunctional state- and a compliant citizen. Focus hate outward and you won't have to deal with rage focused inward.

The fruits of that ugliness play out regularly on our TV screens.

Muslims are not any different then we are.

They want to get married, have kids a good job, come home and enjoy life and make a future for their kids. Instead, based on a force fed diet of hate.

A child born in the Arab world today has little hope of achieving success on his own. There is little in the way of opportunities or a way out of the bleakness. There is no bright future to look forward to.

The only promise and guarantee that child can count on, is being taught to hate.

This is not the fault of the average Muslim.

It never ceases to amaze me just how many people there are who are willing to defend these broken and evil regimes. How much self hate do you have to have to refuse to say, 'Enough, I want more for my children'.

In discussing Arab culture and societal norms, Nonie Darwish remarked

To admit one’s flaws and mistakes, to correct and repent is inconceivable…

To acknowledge one’s shortcomings before first blaming others would bring deep shame and dishonor not only to the individual but to his or her entire family…If the mistake is a cultural taboo, one’s reputation may be scarred for life and the perpetrator might end up brutally punished.

Regardless of her politics, her words strike a chord.

The level or Arab world suffering is enormous- and hidden. Therein is the biggest tragedy.

The Arabs do not deserve the leadership to which they have been enslaved

3 researchok  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 2:33:09pm

re: #1 Bob Levin

Arab population is 360 million.

Minorities are included in that number.

4 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 2:35:07pm

re: #3 researchok

Not even a majority of Muslims. Is that correct?

5 researchok  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 2:38:57pm

re: #4 Bob Levin

Correct.

There are over qa billion Muslims world wide today.

By 2030, thye projection call for 2.2 billion Musloms. See this:

2.2 Billion: World’s Muslim Population Doubles

6 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 2:41:51pm

re: #5 researchok

So, are there different schools of teaching? In other words, I know what the Saudi schools teach. Are there other schools that teach differently?

7 researchok  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 3:36:04pm

Variations on the theme- predicated on the needs of the regime, mostly. The overall needs of the Arab nations are represented by the Arab League.

Of course, the Arab League is deliberately misleading. That organization does not represent Arab interests at all- and never has. The Arab League has not sponsored a single educational, economic or real democratic reform and empowerment program in it’s entire existence. The Arab League is an organization dedicated to maintaining the status quo and preserving the leaders of some of the most repressive and dysfunctional regimes in the world. That is it’s entire raison d’etre.

They have spoken ought against Syria because that nation now represents a threat to the other Arab nations.

8 Obdicut  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 3:37:56pm

Sure, they must, but how?

9 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 3:48:30pm

re: #7 researchok

Again, that's the 360 million status quo. So, 2/3 of the world's Muslims are somewhere else. Is there another school of teaching that challenges the Wahabis?

10 Schadenfreude 'r' Us  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 4:00:28pm

re: #6 Bob Levin

So, are there different schools of teaching? In other words, I know what the Saudi schools teach. Are there other schools that teach differently?

Not really my area, but yes. Sunni and Shiite are the main (population-wise) divisions, but there are others, including Wahhabi, the Saudi version, and one of the most conservative. Sufis should also be mentioned by name, although they're considered heretics by a lot of other groups. Before the Saudis came in and started promulgating their version, the far east (Indonesian, etc.) versions were among the most syncretic.

There aren't any major doctrinal differences, though, as in Christianity. That I know of.

11 researchok  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 4:33:29pm

re: #9 Bob Levin

Yes and no.

In many other parts of the Islamic world, Arab Wahhabism has taken hold because of huge financial support.

Also, there has been a concerted global Saudi effort to fund mosques and schools, another way of buying influence.

Lastly, in certain regions of the world, Wahhabi or Iranian money is used to directly fund terror. South America in particular has been a target of Iranian 'foreign policy'.

12 Achilles Tang  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 4:46:27pm

Arab societies have a huge underclass of peoples still living in the middle ages as far as what might be called a world view goes, but they can use TV and the internet. Clearly Muslims who are educated in the west, or living in the west are not living in that age, but all one has to do is imagine a USA populated in large part by followers of that so called Christian church in Florida, or a Geller society, and one would see the same mindless religious bigotry, or exploitation of it, right here at home. One need only read some of the hate blogs to see that there are plenty of Americans who would like to take up arms right here, if only someone else would do it first and give them courage.

13 CuriousLurker  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 5:09:57pm

re: #1 Bob Levin

I'm just curious. Is it accurate to conflate Arab culture with Islam? What's the total population of the Arab nations? Not billions.

Researchok is correct, Arabs represent only about 20% of the global Muslim population, so it's not necessarily about Arab culture, especially when you note that Afghanistan—a non-Arab Muslim country—is prone to violent protests. Let's take a look at the numbers related to countries where protests or attacks have taken place over this "movie":

Country (or territory): Population in millions / % Muslim*

Afghanistan: 28 / 99.7%
Egypt: 78.5 / 94.6%
Gaza Strip: 1.6 / Couldn't locate number, will assume high 90's
Libya: 6.2 / 96.6%
Tunisia: 10.2 / 99.5%
Yemen: 23.3 / 99.1%

*Mapping the Global Muslim Population (PDF) - Pew Research Center, 2009

We've already established that non-Arab countries like Afghanistan & Pakistan are prone to violent outbursts, so are some African Muslim-majority countries that are only marginally Arab, culturally speaking.

Additionally, even if you remove Afghanistan from the list above, you're still looking at approximately 125 million Arab Muslims—how many were actually out in the streets committing acts of violence? Dozens? Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands? I haven't heard any hard numbers, but I seriously doubt it was more than hundreds or we would've heard about it. Since the percentage of the total population would be tiny, I don't think we can conflate the problem with Arab culture either.

Okay, so if it's not Arab culture, then what? Is the problem Islam? Well, let's take a look at the distribution of the world's 1.6 billion Muslims. From the Pew report's Executive Summary:

While Muslims are found on all five inhabited continents, more than 60% of the global Muslim population is in Asia and about 20% is in the Middle East and North Africa. However, the Middle East-North Africa region has the highest percentage of Muslim-majority countries. Indeed, more than half of the 20 countries and territories in that region have populations that are approximately 95% Muslim or greater.

More than 300 million Muslims, or one-fifth of the world’s Muslim population, live in countries where Islam is not the majority religion. These minority Muslim populations are often quite large. India, for example, has the third-largest population of Muslims worldwide. China has more Muslims than Syria, while Russia is home to more Muslims than Jordan and Libya combined.

Considering that fully 80% of the world's Muslims live in Asia, Africa, and the Middle East, if Islam is the main problem then we should be seeing FAR more widespread & violent protests. Even the fallout from the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons, which was much more widespread, was relatively small when compared to the number of Muslims worldwide—i.e. if all Muslims felt it was required to violently react to such things, there would've been global bedlam on a massive scale, including in the West where the remaining 20% of the world's Muslim live.

I'm annoyed that I feel the need to say this, but lest anyone accuse me of being an apologist, let me be clear: No one should be resorting to violence over this stuff. Even one death or injury is one too many. Not only is it wrong and does it make Muslims look bad, it also encourages the shit-stirrers.

So what can we attribute it to then? Personally, I'd say politics. Politics using religion to stir up violent passions.

14 researchok  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 5:30:25pm
So what can we attribute it to then? Personally, I'd say politics. Politics using religion to stir up violent passions.

Yep.

All the rest is commentary.

15 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 5:42:37pm

re: #13 CuriousLurker

So what can we attribute it to then? Personally, I'd say politics. Politics using religion to stir up violent passions.

I think we're working our way into Bernard Lewis territory, which isn't a bad thing.

Do you think there might be a relationship between politics, culture, and geography? For instance, I don't believe that Afghanistan, outside of poppies, has a highly developed agriculture. So lack of agriculture would tie together all of the nations you listed above. The reason for lack of agriculture would be lack of water, which would lead to tribalism. Would the present state of politics in these nations be an outgrowth of that tribalism? This lack of water would affect everything--politics, religion, psychology, everything. I only think this matters because water would then be part of the solution to, I guess we would agree, problematic areas.

That's just a hypothesis. Does it hold together?

16 CuriousLurker  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 5:47:04pm

re: #14 researchok

Yep.

All the rest is commentary.

LOL, yeah, after I wrote all that I thought, "Um...basically, what researchok said."1

Still, sometimes it helps to look at the actual data and see with your own eyes that the numbers simply don't logically match what you might be thinking (or hearing from others).

----

1. I was just pissed because you mentioned Nonie Darwish, so I refused to up-ding or acknowledge your points. Yeah, I can be just as petty as anyone. //

17 Achilles Tang  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 5:48:29pm

I think there is a lot of over analysis here. People who live in a culture designed for centuries ago, and then are thrown into one centuries ahead in terms of philosophy and technology are bound to react in unpleasant ways, since they have no outlet but to blame the "aliens" on their condition.


We have "xenophobes" at home too, usually we simply call them bigots or racists, but the one thing 99.99% of them have in common, is a god that tells them what to do.

18 researchok  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 5:48:37pm

re: #15 Bob Levin

It's not just agriculture.

Believe it or not in the 1960's and 1970's, Afghanistan was probably the most progressive Muslim country in the world.

Really.

See Once Upon a Time in Afghanistan…

While it is true rural Afghanistan was not as developed as Kabul, it bears rememebrint even rural Europe was very different from the major metropolitan areas at the time.

19 researchok  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 5:50:05pm

re: #16 CuriousLurker

1. I was just pissed because you mentioned Nonie Darwish, so I refused to up-ding or acknowledge your points. Yeah, I can be just as petty as anyone. //

Sipping coffee, minding my own business.

My dry cleaner thanks you.

20 researchok  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 5:54:26pm

re: #16 CuriousLurker

By the way re Nonie Darwish- I have my own issues with her, which is why I rarely quote her or use her work as resource.

However, on this issue she is right on the money.

While Darwish has her views, where she falls short in my opinion is in her refusal to place the blame where it belongs, instead tarring every Muslim who won't embrace her.

Simply asserting that Muslims are to blame (without really assigning that blame where it actually belongs) only exacerbates the problem.

21 CuriousLurker  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 6:05:06pm

re: #17 Achilles Tang

I think there is a lot of over analysis here. People who live in a culture designed for centuries ago, and then are thrown into one centuries ahead in terms of philosophy and technology are bound to react in unpleasant ways, since they have no outlet but to blame the "aliens" on their condition.

We have "xenophobes" at home too, usually we simply call them bigots or racists, but the one thing 99.99% of them have in common, is a god that tells them what to do.

Okay, let's say you're right. How did our home-grown xenophobes manage to miss boarding the advanced culture train to modern enlightenment that everyone else hopped on without a problem? If it was simply their belief in God, then there should be many more of them.

22 CuriousLurker  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 6:07:46pm

re: #15 Bob Levin

I don't know a lot about agriculture beyond knowing what some of the countries are famous for exporting, so I can't really say. It might play a part, but my gut instinct would be to say it's not the main problem.

23 researchok  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 6:22:02pm

re: #22 CuriousLurker

I would agree, though agriculture may have an impact on culture but not necessarily.

Northern Europe has limited agricultural capacity but still managed to flourish.

Now we can talk about the the Arab world to till we are blue in the face but in the end you cannot escape the conclusion that it is politcs and not religion that drives and maintains what is broken.

Here's the deal.

You have broken, oppressive and tyrannical leaders telling a captive, uneducated (by design) population the entire reason for their wretched existence are 'the other'. If only 'the other' were stood up too, fought, eliminated, etc., all would be well.

They are further told that their leaders stand up for them day and night to defend their dignity. They are not just leaders, they are more importantly defenders of the faith and of their dignity. The people are told of the sacrifice of the leaders on their behalf in the fight to protect them from enemies who are obsessed with their humiliation, destruction, eradication, etc.

This is what the Kims of North Korea did, Mao, Stalin, et al.

They do it because it works and because it makes people feel as if they matter in a political culture which devalues them.

I could go on but you get the point.

The extent of the tragedy is almost incomprehensible.

These people need freedom- real freedom, the freedom to love, belong, participate- anything but hate-- more than we can even imagine.

24 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 6:24:35pm

re: #18 researchok

While it is true rural Afghanistan was not as developed as Kabul, it bears rememebrint even rural Europe was very different from the major metropolitan areas at the time.

In the sixties?

Also, I'm talking about things which, historically, have had an effect that might best be described as re-formatting our consciousness--without the benefit of the Vanguard of the Proletariat. Agriculture, the printing press, mass media, the personal computer--these things literally changed who we are. I will also add religion into that, and not pejoratively.

25 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 6:26:33pm

re: #22 CuriousLurker

It's only a problem if it didn't develop. And therefore developing it would be part of the solution.

26 researchok  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 6:35:16pm

re: #24 Bob Levin

All true.

My point about Afghanistan was to show just how easily a progressive society can be be undermined.

And I would also agree it would do Afghanistan a world of good to fcus on agricultural development.

Greenhouses in the desert.

I've heard about these things.

27 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 6:37:03pm

re: #23 researchok

Just sayin'. You've divided the world into pathological and free. If that's an accident, just because of the brevity here, no problem.

But if you wanted to divide the world using pathology as a tool, then you have the externalizing pathology, which you've described. But that would be compared to our, the West's internalizing pathology, which is a widespread narcissism. That's why, if we use pathological religious observance, Westboro is more interested in seeing their name spelled right.

28 Achilles Tang  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 6:40:42pm

re: #21 CuriousLurker

Okay, let's say you're right. How did our home-grown xenophobes manage to miss boarding the advanced culture train to modern enlightenment that everyone else hopped on without a problem? If it was simply their belief in God, then there should be many more of them.

There will always be some who find an excuse to deny reality, and a god is a pretty substantial sounding one, is it not?

I don't know how many reality denialists exactly we have, but I do know that we have an atrociously large education drop out percentage. I believe NPR has a special on just that coming up this week. It is not that it is the belief in a god that is the problem, it is simply that this is a strong justification when everything else fails. Sure, one could take the strong atheist approach and just say that if nobody would believe in god everything would be hunky dory, but what does that have to do with education? Nothing.

We encourage mediocrity in intellect when it comes to religion. Like the three monkeys; and that has consequences.

29 Achilles Tang  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 6:49:06pm

re: #23 researchok

I would agree, though agriculture may have an impact on culture but not necessarily.

Northern Europe has limited agricultural capacity but still managed to flourish.

Now we can talk about the the Arab world to till we are blue in the face but in the end you cannot escape the conclusion that it is politcs and not religion that drives and maintains what is broken.

Here's the deal.

You have broken, oppressive and tyrannical leaders telling a captive, uneducated (by design) population the entire reason for their wretched existence are 'the other'. If only 'the other' were stood up too, fought, eliminated, etc., all would be well.

They are further told that their leaders stand up for them day and night to defend their dignity. They are not just leaders, they are more importantly defenders of the faith and of their dignity. The people are told of the sacrifice of the leaders on their behalf in the fight to protect them from enemies who are obsessed with their humiliation, destruction, eradication, etc.

This is what the Kims of North Korea did, Mao, Stalin, et al.

They do it because it works and because it makes people feel as if they matter in a political culture which devalues them.

I could go on but you get the point.

The extent of the tragedy is almost incomprehensible.

These people need freedom- real freedom, the freedom to love, belong, participate- anything but hate-- more than we can even imagine.

Freedom is in the eye of the beholder and it applies just as much to freedom to impose as it does to freedom from imposition. We are seeing this play out in real time in the so called Arab Spring, but you seem to forget that there are fundamentalists who were also yearning for the freedom to impose their version of freedom.

You are guilty of presentism, as it were, by assuming your freedom is the same as all other's version of freedom. George Bush thought all Iraqis thought just like him (more or less) because the only ones he ever heard from were educated in the USA.

30 researchok  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 6:50:39pm

re: #27 Bob Levin

All true, but brevity (and readership) come into play.

And context, definitions, etc are needed to further the conversation.

American narcissism is very different than the South Korean version, for example, ad infinitum.

We are for the most part, shielded and insulated (I call it freedom from fear) and that too profoundly influences our world view.

Factor in multiple issues (shame cultures, progressive cultures and conservative cultures (outside of religious cultures) and we'd be writing 6 or 7 page comments.

31 researchok  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 6:54:17pm

re: #29 Achilles Tang

Freedom is in the eye of the beholder and it applies just as much to freedom to impose as it does to freedom from imposition. We are seeing this play out in real time in the so called Arab Spring, but you seem to forget that there are fundamentalists who were also yearning for the freedom to impose their version of freedom.

You are guilty of presentism, as it were, by assuming your freedom is the same as all other's version of freedom. George Bush thought all Iraqis thought just like him (more or less) because the only ones he ever heard from were educated in the USA.

I would have to disagree.

Freedom is different in every country.

However, free nations do share certain qualities-

The equality of the individual, variations of freedom of speech (some nations have hate speech laws) and the freedom to express one's religious beliefs.

The rest is a matter of cultural expression.

32 Achilles Tang  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 6:59:38pm

re: #26 researchok

All true.

My point about Afghanistan was to show just how easily a progressive society can be be undermined.

And I would also agree it would do Afghanistan a world of good to fcus on agricultural development.

Greenhouses in the desert.

I've heard about these things.

Afghanistan has never been a progressive society. It is a primitive agrarian society as it has been for all of human history, and still is except now they have cars and cell phones, and poppy crops. Take away the technology and the drug market and they will revert to a peaceful primitive society where wife beating and child brides can continue, as it has for centuries.

I have friends who toured Afghanistan by motor home some decades ago and were never troubled. What we see today is the pangs of a primitive civilization coming in contact with a more modern world. We give them all the means to make it worse, not better.

As to greenhouses; they don't need food, but if they want to join the rest of the planet, they have vast mineral resources that could allow them to do that, once the old Mullahs and tribalists die out, and religious differences disappear, and all the young say the hell with the old ways, and when pigs fly.

33 researchok  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 7:10:07pm

re: #32 Achilles Tang

See Once Upon a Time in Afghanistan…

Modern secular Afghanistan in 1950s - 60s - now a backward ...

(the title leaves somewhat to be desired but the video is informative)

34 Achilles Tang  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 7:11:40pm

re: #31 researchok

I would have to disagree.

Freedom is different in every country.

However, free nations do share certain qualities-

The equality of the individual, variations of freedom of speech (some nations have hate speech laws) and the freedom to express one's religious beliefs.

The rest is a matter of cultural expression.

We have the same sort of issues right here at home, in case you haven't noticed that the freedom of religion here is viewed by many as the freedom to impose on everyone what you and I might think should be the freedom to practice oneself.

You dismiss cultural expression as if it is something divorced from all the rest. It is not in the slightest degree. Islam is a culture as much as a religion. Individuals may conduct themselves differently when not in majority Muslim cultures, but to say that Islam is not a "culture" when it is dominant is a mistake. I speak with some authority, if I may, having lived and worked and employed people in such states for 10 years, when times were more peaceful.

35 Achilles Tang  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 7:23:27pm

re: #33 researchok

See Once Upon a Time in Afghanistan…

Modern secular Afghanistan in 1950s - 60s - now a backward ...

(the title leaves somewhat to be desired but the video is informative)

I didn't watch all that, but I think I know the point attempted, which is that once upon a time there was the ability for a modern, western oriented, society to exist in a place like Afghanistan. What I think however is that this was a tiny percentage of the population which for a while was no threat to the rural one, and vice versa. Then gradually the majority begins to see that this is a threat to their traditions, their sons will be seduced, their women will learn to read and talk back and something has to give.

When I first lived in Kuwait, one of the most western oriented "kingdoms" in the region there was an understanding that foreigners had their ways and it didn't conflict. Foreigners could buy liquor, and pork, in special stores for example. But then this became a temptation for the locals and pretty soon this was stopped even in a place like Kuwait, and it was stopped because of demands by the Mullahs, not the rulers. Give an inch and they take a mile, and the same principle applies even here at home.

The problem is that god demands these things./

36 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 9:00:14pm

Here's the thing...well, three things:

1. Obviously, people who kill over offensive nonsense are, well, messed up. It's important not to lose track of that, and start obsessing about what offended them so very much.

2. But the shit is still offensive. I don't have to like it, or think it's cute, or defend it, just because al-Qaeda used it as a lever to get a crowd riled up to attack the US Embassy.

3.The embassy was facing a potentially deadly attack. That's not a good time to tell the mob they need to grow up.

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Sep 13, 2012 9:03:09pm

re: #32 Achilles Tang

I have friends who toured Afghanistan by motor home some decades ago and were never troubled. What we see today is the pangs of a primitive civilization coming in contact with a more modern world. We give them all the means to make it worse, not better.

They're not exactly some isolated tribe in the Amazon. Just saying.

38 Achilles Tang  Fri, Sep 14, 2012 5:29:13am

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist

They are in many ways, but it is not just one tribe, it is many and each acts in it's own interest, not in the interest of all.


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thecommodore
WAPO’s Glenn Kessler Gives Three “Pinocchios” To Claim of Doctored Emails
It has long been part of the Washington game for officials to discredit a news story by playing up errors in a relatively small part of it. Pfeiffer gives the impression that GOP operatives deliberately tried to "smear the president" with false, doctored e-mails. But the reporters involved have indicated they were told by their sources that these were summaries, taken from notes ...

2 days, 15 hours ago
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kristina37
We know how to reduce the incidence of common medical conditions but …
Obesity is on the rise-- as is the incidence of Heart Disease, Diabetes, Stroke and various forms of Cancer. And, shockingly, diseases that had in the past begun in old age are now appearing at much earlier ages. A groundbreaking scientific study showed how easily (and inexpensively) the rate of occurrence of these and other serious illness could be greatly reduced-- but this information ...

3 days, 15 hours ago
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 Frank says:

We play the new free music, music as the absolutely free, unencumbered by American cultural suppression