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1 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 15, 2012 8:32:16am

Geez. Not only is it not anti-semitic, but Dawkins makes the point that Christians have a totally unresolved dichotomy between lovey-dovey Jesus and kinda-Crazy god.

2 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 15, 2012 9:37:32am

Dawkins is well-educated enough to understand that what he said echoes--or more or less repeats--a long-standing Christian charge against Judaism. And I assume Sacks could have sat down with him and discussed this, rather than turning it into a grand melee against Dawkins, and probably gotten more interesting material out of it.

However, it sounds as though Dawkins and Sacks are having more fun taking each other on than communicating, so let them have at it.

3 researchok  Sat, Sep 15, 2012 10:10:25am

re: #2 SanFranciscoZionist

I absolutely agree.

Sacks should have consulted with Dawkins first, asking for a clarification.

And Dawkins should have made clear that he is more than willing to sit down with Sacks to clear the air.

4 Buck  Sat, Sep 15, 2012 10:12:30am

re: #1 Obdicut

Geez. Not only is it not anti-semitic, but Dawkins makes the point that Christians have a totally unresolved dichotomy between lovey-dovey Jesus and kinda-Crazy god.

So then describing Islam's god and his prophet as

a “vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser” as well as “misogynist”, “homophobic”, “racist”, “pestilential” and “infanticidal”.

would not be anti Islam????

Clearly I think you are wrong, and as a Jew I am offended.

Interesting timing for this. Why would this not be a clear abuse of free speech?

5 researchok  Sat, Sep 15, 2012 10:31:06am

re: #4 Buck

Unfair.

We don't know what Dawkins might say.

6 Buck  Sat, Sep 15, 2012 11:22:35am

re: #5 researchok

Unfair.

We don't know what Dawkins might say.

Really? I think we do. He thinks he is just "anti-God". Well what if he is just anti-Mohammed? Would that not be that equivalent of being islamophobic?

He called the God of the old testament

a “vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser” as well as “misogynist”, “homophobic”, “racist”, “pestilential” and “infanticidal”.

The same God that the Jews worship. The same God that they praise and love every day. And Obdicut thinks that is not anti-semitic.

I clearly disagree.

7 miclaine  Sat, Sep 15, 2012 12:24:57pm

re: #6 Buck

Really? I think we do. He thinks he is just "anti-God". Well what if he is just anti-Mohammed? Would that not be that equivalent of being islamophobic?

He called the God of the old testament

The same God that the Jews worship. The same God that they praise and love every day. And Obdicut thinks that is not anti-semitic.

I clearly disagree.

As a Jew, I kind of agree with Obdi. Dawkins could have mentioned some of god's redeeming qualities, but doesn't, because it is not part of his perspective. I am not at all offended - as the god of the desert did demand much of his followers. I feel the same about the Mo guy too and his followers have not been able to define these stories as lessons - they continue the slaughter demanded by G o' D.

8 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 15, 2012 12:45:05pm

I simply don't understand Dawkins describing his words as 'anti-God'. The man is supposed to be an atheist, not some sort of anti-deity activist.

To quote words I've heard so very many times on the Internet, "You can't hate something you don't believe exists."

9 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 15, 2012 12:54:30pm

re: #4 Buck

So then describing Islam's god and his prophet as

Nope. The god of the old testament, who is the god of Muslims as well as Christians and Jews, is all of those things at various times. He's also kind, forgiving, loving, and incredibly strange, at various other times.

Interesting timing for this. Why would this not be a clear abuse of free speech?

Who does it harm in any way to say this?

10 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 15, 2012 12:57:53pm

re: #8 SanFranciscoZionist

Sure you can. God doesn't exist, but the formulation of god as described exists; people believe in it.

I don't have to believe that there are actual 'races' to hate racism. I don't have to believe in god to say that a god who commands people to commit genocide is all kinds of fucked up.

A lot of theology is taken up with dealing with the apparently-capricious way that god acts, and the way his nature changes, in the major religions. Some theology around this point is rather lovely, but in the end, the texts of the major religions still include God acting pretty fucking psycho, and pointing this out should be something religious people can not only handle, it should be something they understand showcases some of the scary and irrational side of religion.

11 SanFranciscoZionist  Sat, Sep 15, 2012 1:19:10pm

re: #10 Obdicut

Sure you can. God doesn't exist, but the formulation of god as described exists; people believe in it.

I don't have to believe that there are actual 'races' to hate racism. I don't have to believe in god to say that a god who commands people to commit genocide is all kinds of fucked up.

A lot of theology is taken up with dealing with the apparently-capricious way that god acts, and the way his nature changes, in the major religions. Some theology around this point is rather lovely, but in the end, the texts of the major religions still include God acting pretty fucking psycho, and pointing this out should be something religious people can not only handle, it should be something they understand showcases some of the scary and irrational side of religion.

OK...but in that case, Dawkins really should understand the loaded history of his 'Vengeful Old Testament God vs. Loving, Caring New Testament God' thing.

12 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 15, 2012 1:55:45pm

re: #11 SanFranciscoZionist

OK...but in that case, Dawkins really should understand the loaded history of his 'Vengeful Old Testament God vs. Loving, Caring New Testament God' thing.

I have not yet found the direct example of him doing that. I don't see it in the linked article. Can you point me to it?

13 researchok  Sat, Sep 15, 2012 2:19:59pm

re: #8 SanFranciscoZionist

I simply don't understand Dawkins describing his words as 'anti-God'. The man is supposed to be an atheist, not some sort of anti-deity activist.

To quote words I've heard so very many times on the Internet, "You can't hate something you don't believe exists."

Huge 'ouch!'

14 researchok  Sat, Sep 15, 2012 2:23:32pm

re: #11 SanFranciscoZionist

In fairness, Dawkins has not exactly shied away from any attention that might come his way. He cultivates the environment which keeps him front and center- and sells books.

Like a lot of other authors, that is in his best interest.

It doesn't make his arguments more or less viable. It just sells books and makes him a media darling.

15 Obdicut  Sat, Sep 15, 2012 2:29:50pm

re: #14 researchok

Why do you think Dawkin's goal is to sell books, rather than have people think about his ideas?

16 Buck  Mon, Sep 17, 2012 1:08:44pm

re: #9 Obdicut

Nope. The god of the old testament, who is the god of Muslims as well as Christians and Jews, is all of those things at various times. He's also kind, forgiving, loving, and incredibly strange, at various other times.

Who does it harm in any way to say this?

I don't understand what you are saying. The quote/response is unclear.

I think you are saying that it is your opinion that describing Islam's god and his prophet as a “vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser” as well as “misogynist”, “homophobic”, “racist”, “pestilential” and “infanticidal” is NOT anti Islam.

That is interesting to me. Not sure if I can agree with you.

It also seems you are asking who does it harm in any way to say that Dawkins is abusing his Free Speech rights?

Again I disagree, I think it harms all of us to say that criticizing a religion is an abuse.


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