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1 Bob Dillon  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 12:49:13pm

High probability of backlash increasing pressure on the Copts in Egypt ... which they do not deserve. Ignorance needs little excuse to lash out. God bless the good Muslims but in my travels and interactions with multiple cultures world wide they are, in general (outside western boundaries and education) amongst the most ignorant, uneducated, indoctrinated and manipulated people on the planet. What happened from when they were amongst the greatest contributors to human knowledge and understanding?

2 researchok  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 1:17:49pm

re: #1 Bob Dillon

High probability of backlash increasing pressure on the Copts in Egypt

You got that right.

As for your remarks on Muslims outside the west, the blame falls squarely on the regimes and their dysfunctional leaders who hundreds of years have ground them into the ground- and you have people who will defend the dysfunction, brokenness and oppressive regimes.

The magnitude of the tragedy is almost incomprehensible.

3 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 2:27:19pm

re: #2 researchok

It's incredible to me that just when Egypt finally has a chance to try to determine their own course, to try to change things for the better, someone decides to poison the whole thing. Why? Why? The Copts cannot possibly "win", they're too few. If they feel they've been treated unfairly—and surely they have—then why do something suicidally provocative? How will that help? It makes no sense to me at all.

I pray that there are some cooler heads out there, some Muslims who instead of just staying home to avoid the trouble, will proactively go out and try to stop things from spiraling out of control if it looks like mobs are going to start going after innocent Copts. It's insane. None of this needed to happen. Why?

4 Bob Dillon  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 2:34:02pm

re: #2 researchok

I taught general electronics, computer systems and other edge toys (the forerunner to GPS) in SEA to locals for a number of years in multiple countries back in the 70s. The educated Indonesians, Thais and Malays would literally track me down if only to take the chance they could pick up some scrap of knowledge that would help them advance themselves.

I spent significant time away from the towns and cities - out in the boonies in small villages and less - for the most part sweet people but hair trigger crazy at the command of the local imam. Behavior like trained dogs: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...] that will go nuts on command only (but not bite) and/or bite on another command. Faithful and obedient.

5 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 2:37:22pm

re: #3 CuriousLurker

I see this all the time. The American communities become radicalized than the people they advocate for back home.

The Irish Republican Army had more support in the States than they did back in Ireland as a whole for example.

With that said, this Christian violated no laws and Muslims seem to freak out too easily.

A secular society with a scientific world view would not have reacted this way.

6 Buck  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 2:41:47pm

re: #3 CuriousLurker

If they feel they've been treated unfairly—and surely they have—then why do something suicidally provocative? How will that help? It makes no sense to me at all.

What do you suggest? If they are already being slaughtered, then why not do something that will get more attention.

Not that I think this was a good idea, or that the organizers had any idea it would explode the way it did, but if getting their story out was the plan, this has worked better than you might think. The world is watching Egypt now.

7 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 2:50:10pm

re: #5 Destro

Yeah, Muslims blah, blah, blah...secular societies blah, blah, blah...all the talk & philosophy doesn't mean squat when there's a very real possibility of innocent people getting slaughtered. Do you get that? I don't want to see that, it freaks me out, understand?

8 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 2:58:20pm

re: #7 CuriousLurker

Yeah, Muslims blah, blah, blah...secular societies blah, blah, blah...all the talk & philosophy doesn't mean squat when there's a very real possibility of innocent people getting slaughtered. Do you get that? I don't want to see that, it freaks me out, understand?

Then help to spread the message to people in your faith community to modify their behavior. It is offensive for Americans to pass laws limiting free speech. This Coptic cleric in the USA did nothing illegal and his his right to free speech will be defended.

9 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 2:58:33pm

re: #6 Buck

What do you suggest? If they are already being slaughtered, then why not do something that will get more attention.

Organize, coordinate with Copts in the West to build a narrative and get attention, demonstrate...I'm sure there are other better ways that activists are aware of. The assholes pulling this stunt live here in America where they're safe.

Not that I think this was a good idea, or that the organizers had any idea it would explode the way it did, but if getting their story out was the plan, this has worked better than you might think. The world is watching Egypt now.

Really? Worked better for who—for the innocent people who could potentially lose their lives? How many of your family members would you be willing to sacrifice to get your story out if it was your community?

10 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 3:02:57pm

re: #8 Destro

Then help to spread the message to people in your faith community to modify their behavior. It is offensive for Americans to pass laws limiting free speech. This Coptic cleric in the USA did nothing illegal and his his right to free speech will be defended.

Dude, I'm American born & raised. It's not American Muslims doing this shit—those people overseas aren't in my faith community, FFS. Do you think we have some special power, some hive mind that can control Egyptian Muslims thousands of miles away?

Who in the hell said anything about Americans passing laws to limit free speech?

11 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 3:04:25pm

re: #9 CuriousLurker

No. Muslim behavior in Muslim lands needs to be changed.

12 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 3:05:44pm

re: #11 Destro

No. Muslim behavior in Muslim lands needs to be changed.

And what, precisely, do you expect me to do about it sitting here in Jersey?

13 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 3:06:04pm

re: #10 CuriousLurker

It is very clear you are implying that the Copt did something wrong in his speech that caused people to be killed. Yes people got killed because of what this cleric might have said to anger the killers but I don't get what you want us to do about it?

14 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 3:07:15pm

re: #12 CuriousLurker

And what, precisely, do you expect me to do about it sitting here in Jersey?

Defend the American Coptic Christian who insulted Islam.

15 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 3:14:09pm

OK, so now that we met the fiery Coptic cleric who influenced figures behind anti-Islamic film what should we do? Answer? Nothing. He has a right to be fiery all religionists in America have a right to be fiery and we have a responsibiliy (like it or not - and I don't like defending speech I disagree with) to defend his rights.

16 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 3:14:19pm

re: #13 Destro

re: #14 Destro

If it's very clear, then show me exactly where I have ever said that the Copt or Pamela Geller or David Duke or any other hateful asshole shouldn't have free speech and I'll defend him. While you're at it, how me where I said I wanted "us" to do anything about it.

Don't try to put me on the defensive. You're not that clever.

17 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 3:17:00pm

re: #15 Destro

OK, so now that we met the fiery Coptic cleric who influenced figures behind anti-Islamic film what should we do? Answer? Nothing. He has a right to be crazy liek all religionists in America have a right to be fiery and we have a responsibiliy (like it or not - and I don't like defending speech I disagree with) to defend his rights.

Piss off. I don't have time for your inane, self-serving, dishonest bullshit.

We're done here.

18 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 3:19:13pm

re: #16 CuriousLurker

I did not imply to you what you assume I did. All I wrote was that you lamented the cleric's words because it will cause trouble for Copts overseas.

I agree.

What do you want to do about it? There is nothing we as Americans can do.

In Europe and Canada they have anti-hate speech laws that would have gotten this cleric in some sort of trouble for his words against Muslims.

I agree with those laws overseas because Europeans have slaughtered each other over words like that (Christian on Christian usually) but in the USA we are not from that tradition and we can't do anything.

19 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 3:22:52pm

re: #17 CuriousLurker

I apologize if I offended you, I have not been around religious people in a long time so I may come off as insensitive to their world view.

20 CuriousLurker  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 3:35:40pm

re: #19 Destro

I apologize if I offended you, I have not been around religious people in a long time so I may come off as insensitive to their world view.

Oh, for crying out loud! It doesn't matter if you're religious or not, you're human, right?? This is about humans, innocent ones that could die because of Coptic haters here inciting Muslim haters there. One doesn't have to be religious to show humanitarian concern and disgust for a cynically manufactured controversy with deadly and potentially disastrous consequences.

I don't give a flying fuck about scoring debate points or winning some stupid argument with you. ALL I CARE ABOUT IS THAT INNOCENT PEOPLE NOT DIE BECAUSE OF THE HATEFUL STUPIDITY OF OTHERS. Is that so hard for you to comprehend?

21 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 3:40:32pm

re: #20 CuriousLurker

All I am saying is there is nothing we here in America can do about it. I have said I am open to passing anti-hate speech laws based on how I see them work in Europe but I don't see that happening in the USA and in fact I know people will react in horror to the thought of hate speech banning laws in the states.

Your concern is my concern about the loss of lives over this but there is nothing we can do about it here.

If not this Copt then we may have a Southern Bible Belter burning the Koran sometime in the future and we will have the same thing happen all over again.

22 researchok  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 4:29:09pm

re: #5 Destro

Name one American community that has become more radicalized.

Where?

23 researchok  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 4:30:21pm

re: #11 Destro

Everyone, right?

24 researchok  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 4:33:52pm

re: #5 Destro

All bullshit.

The Republic wanted no part of Ulster and the lunatic fringe of the IRA (which is why they never supported the IRA) enjoyed huge support in Ulster and that support is what kept the troubles alive for decades.

25 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 4:42:31pm

re: #24 researchok

All bullshit.

The Republic wanted no part of Ulster and the lunatic fringe of the IRA (which is why they never supported the IRA) enjoyed huge support in Ulster and that support is what kept the troubles alive for decades.

And I wrote:

The Irish Republican Army had more support in the States (as in the USA) than they did back in Ireland as a whole for example.

26 researchok  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 4:43:21pm

re: #3 CuriousLurker

Why?

Brcause this is about power and nothing more. It's notabout Islam, Copts, Jews or Hndus.

Everyone wants their piece of the pie

The all want what they believe is an unending spring of baksheesh.

Storming the embassies gives the illusion of power to frustrated rioters. The world notices them.

The real instigators sit home and laugh at how easy it is to manipulate people who have been deliberately kept uneducated, in the dark and who are told daily 'they' disrespect you and how these 'leaders' stand up for them.

And another generation is lost.

27 researchok  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 4:46:38pm

re: #25 Destro

Right

Now name a Muslim community that is more radicalized here.

I do find fascinating your interest in a religious community in which you said you are 'proud of not having any Muslim friends'.

28 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 4:47:32pm

re: #22 researchok

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Extreme nationalism is prominent in Croatia not because most Croats endorse it -- they do not -- but because the nationalists intimidate their opponents. They are also rich, thanks to smuggling and the support of hard-line Croatian emigres.

and

[Link: docs.google.com...]

29 researchok  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 4:48:26pm

re: #28 Destro

Is that here is the US?

30 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 4:50:34pm

re: #27 researchok

Right

Now name a Muslim community that is more radicalized here.

I do find fascinating your interest in a religious community in which you said you are 'proud of not having any Muslim friends'.

So no apology for misreading what I wrote on the IRA from you? And yea, I don't have Muslim freinds. I don't classify people by religion - the most stupidest of classifications - like religionists do. But that went over your head.

31 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 4:51:25pm

re: #29 researchok

Read and find out.

32 researchok  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 4:54:19pm

LOLOL@apology!!!!

YOU, who lies are well deocumented want an apology from me???

You see, your remarks are more Bullshit- as usual.

How many foreign, non English targets did the IRA hit?

How any foreign countries did the IRA go into and target non Brits?

Shall I go on?

As ususal. your pivot and attack analogies are bullshit.

33 researchok  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 4:54:54pm

re: #31 Destro

What bullshit do you want me to read?

34 researchok  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 4:57:12pm

re: #30 Destro

You have a long way to go before you can be considered credible.

And lay off CL

Like I told you once before, you;ll never know more about Islam, the state of Islam than she has forgotten.

35 researchok  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 5:02:35pm

re: #30 Destro

And if you don't classify your friends by religion, why are so proud of not having Muslim friends.

36 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 5:12:20pm

re: #35 researchok

And if you don't classify your friends by religion, why are so proud of not having Muslim friends.

Because my pals maybe Arabs or Irish or Pakistani or whatever. Why is it Christians don't classify their pals in America as Christian friends. Religion is the most meaningless thing to classify a person by. How do I taste Muslim food? Is it an Italian resteraunt or a Catholic resteraunt? Is the language being spoken Muslim or Arabic?

37 researchok  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 5:14:19pm

Why are you so proud of not having Muslim friends?

Keep dancing.

38 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 5:17:09pm

re: #37 researchok

Why are you so proud of not having Muslim friends?

Keep dancing.

The same reason I don't have 'black' freinds - I don't classify people in my relationships by the superficial like skin color or their religion.

39 wrenchwench  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 5:18:45pm

I'm guessing your friends don't consider their religion superficial.

40 researchok  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 5:23:30pm

re: #38 Destro

Do you recall the context in which you said you were 'proud of not having Muslim friends'?

Because if you do, you'll have to come up with a whole new set of lies.

Which I know won't bother you in the least.

41 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 5:39:26pm

re: #39 wrenchwench

I'm guessing your friends don't consider their religion superficial.

You would guess wrong.

42 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 5:40:21pm

re: #40 researchok

Is this question from the same person who mis-read my IRA statement above and refuses to admit he did so?

43 researchok  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 5:45:18pm

re: #42 Destro

I'll tell you what.

You apologize for all the deliberate lies you told and before today I'll apologize for misreading your statement (we can go back and discuss that after the apologies)

Work for you?

See? I played along with your pivot and attack.

Now, to repeat:

Do you recall the context in which you said you were 'proud of not having Muslim friends'?

Because if you do, you'll have to come up with a whole new set of lies.

Do you need a reminder?

44 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 5:51:15pm

You read one thing wrong and don't admit it? How much else do you get wrong?

You go ahead and keep classifying people you associate with by their "faith" or hair color. Free country.

45 researchok  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 5:52:49pm

re: #44 Destro

LOLOL

More pivot and attack, more bullshit

I'll tell you what.

You apologize for all the deliberate lies you told and before today I'll apologize for misreading your statement (we can go back and discuss that after the apologies)

Work for you?

See? I played along with your pivot and attack.

Now, to repeat:

Do you recall the context in which you said you were 'proud of not having Muslim friends'?

Because if you do, you'll have to come up with a whole new set of lies.

Do you need a reminder?

46 researchok  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 5:56:37pm

re: #44 Destro

The lies you've told, Destro...all the lies- from the very first day.

You can't make them go away. But I do admit is funny watching you try.

You authored you own failure.

LOLOL- and now it's supposed to be about me!

47 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 6:51:18pm

re: #6 Buck

Not that I think this was a good idea, or that the organizers had any idea it would explode the way it did, ...

The Coptic Christian organizers not only knew it would explode, they were counting on it. That's why they constructed a fictional Israeli Jewish filmmaker and 100 fake Israeli investors, to attempt to redirect the backlash away from their community and onto Israel and Jews. This insidious attempt at scapegoating Jews and using them as decoys betrays the dark and cynical motive behind the entire affair.


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