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1 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 5:54:42pm

The Tet Offensive was a military disaster that left the Viet Cong permanently crippled and the NVA badly battered. This airfield raid is much smaller and comes as the Taliban have been ground down steadily for months. This isn't that bad. In fact, we should see about giving the F-35B a combat evaluation and sending one of those in to replace one of the destroyed Harriers. That is a satisfactory 'Fuck You'.

2 Bob Dillon  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 6:17:03pm

To even think of Tet and this in the same context is so far off base as to be ludicrous.

3 lostlakehiker  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 7:17:12pm

Tet may have been a military disaster for the NVA, seen without its political context, but war, as Clausewitz wrote, has its political side. If the war aim of NV was to get an election in the U.S. that delivered a mandate for exiting the war, then the Tet offensive went far toward making that happen.

When you're being told you're winning and the enemy is almost out of gas, then any convulsive effort that proves they have something left in the tank debunks that story.

Warning to democratic leaders fighting a long war: never paint a rosy picture. Victory, when it comes, if it comes, will need no explanation. If victory is impossible, defeat is undesirable, and fighting on is painful, either swallow the bitter pill and accept defeat-cutting the best deal you can swing, or swallow the other bitter pill and tell people the fight will go on and on---until the other side concludes to swallow the bitter pill of having fought only to a draw.

LBJ lost office not so much because the shooting war was lost, as because he lied and said it was virtually won when it was not. (OK, maybe he didn't lie. Maybe he really believed it. Same difference.)

4 Aligarr  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 7:20:56pm

I think we should be thinking about a failure in security. This is the "best defended base " ? Apparently not . A wall was breached ,a hole blown through it . Valuable assets destroyed ....I wonder if those Harriers were strategically parked [ not a new idea ] Three tighty co-ordinated teams ? Exactly how many ? to basically breach a well fortified base and accomplish their mission .

5 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 7:25:15pm

re: #4 Aligarr

I think we should be thinking about a failure in security. This is the "best defended base " ? Apparently not . A wall was breached ,a hole blown through it . Valuable assets destroyed ....I wonder if those Harriers were strategically parked [ not a new idea ] Three tighty co-ordinated teams ? Exactly how many ? to basically breach a well fortified base and accomplish their mission .

Do you still wantto fight a war where after over a decade we still have not gotten security right?

6 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 7:28:16pm

re: #3 lostlakehiker

Well said, we were told the Taliban were on the ropes after a surge and they are mounting these kinds of attacks?

This is from October 31, 2011

[Link: www.army.mil...]

KANDAHAR AIRFIELD, Afghanistan, Oct. 31, 2011 -- Pockets of Taliban forces in Afghanistan are quickly losing strength in the face of an increasingly war weary Afghan population and decreasing resources and capabilities, two Fort Riley commanders said recently.

"We are separating the insurgency from the people, eroding their resources and hindering their capabilities," Lt. Col. Michael Katona, commander of 4th Squadron, 4th Cavalry Regiment, 1st Heavy Brigade Combat Team, said via video teleconference from Afghanistan. "We have the enemy against the ropes and we are punching them hard right now."

7 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 7:32:27pm

re: #5 Destro

Do you still wantto fight a war where after over a decade we still have not gotten security right?

No security is ever airtight, Destro, and if a properly planned raid is executed with well-trained men success can sometimes be obtained. This is not the symbolic event the Taliban say it is. This is a an airfield raid, that's all.

8 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 7:43:29pm

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

re: #2 Bob Dillon

re: #3 lostlakehiker

re: #4 Aligarr

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

terms of morale, the assault comes close to taking on shades of the infamous “Tet Offensive” in Vietnam.

9 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 7:45:14pm

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

To get such a sizeable element of well equipped fighters that far into Coalition territory, to strike at the heart of Coalition operations, at the most well-defended base in the province, speaks more than to an assassination attempt or vitriol over a satirical film.

It shows that much of the so-called progress in the past three years may be a wasted effort.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

10 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 8:16:27pm

re: #9 Destro

No, it says the enemy was able to put together a better strike unit than previously seen. While this is troubling, the Taliban lack the organization and capability of the Vietnamese Communists. Tet is very often misunderstood and this one raid is frankly too small to have Tet's morale effects. It won't even be noticed by most Americans.

11 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 8:19:11pm

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

It won't even be noticed by most Americans.

That sums up the wars we have fought that Bush started.....

12 Bob Dillon  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 9:43:50pm

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

No security is ever airtight, Destro, and if a properly planned raid is executed with well-trained men success can sometimes be obtained. This is not the symbolic event the Taliban say it is. This is a an airfield raid, that's all.

When folks do not know the difference between strategy and tactics and get them mixed up and muddled in their thinking and expression it is a waste of time to engage in discussion unless you feel like venting some emotions.

13 Bob Dillon  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 9:48:28pm

re: #8 Destro

re: #2 Bob Dillon

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

terms of morale, the assault comes close to taking on shades of the infamous “Tet Offensive” in Vietnam.

As I said before on the other thread: Bull Shit!

14 Bob Dillon  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 10:03:16pm

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

An 80 year old Nun successfully penetrated a nuclear facilities security in the US a few months ago with no formal military training. Now, stay with me on this ... if we could pull together a few boys and girls who held the belief system that if killed in a jihad operation they got the "free goto heaven" card and lived happily ever after with ... what is the #? 72? Yeah that's the ticket - 72 virgins. - Night Ops. We need a Night Ops person and someone or three to run OPSEC - what could we accomplish? Now I'm not suggesting we go up against AF Bases guarding Nukes - sheet! They have K-9s who are trained to play for keeps and I would like to personally have the option to surrender. But boy if we could pull it off maybe it would influence the entire worlds thinking about The Great Game. /

15 Destro  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 10:46:38pm

re: #13 Bob Dillon

Do you see a light at the end of the Afghan war tunnel?

How long do you want to stay militarily in Afghanistan? Till we turn this around?

16 Bob Dillon  Sun, Sep 16, 2012 11:01:58pm

re: #15 Destro

What is this we shit - you really think you have a vote in this?

Your questions indicate you do not know the questions to ask that would result in a meaningful discussion without a bunch of emotional bull shit that has nothing to do with reality. Good night and good bye, Destro. I suggest you get yourself up to speed on the military before trying to engage further.

17 Bob Levin  Wed, Sep 19, 2012 4:00:16pm

re: #3 lostlakehiker

LBJ lost office not so much because the shooting war was lost, as because he lied and said it was virtually won when it was not. (OK, maybe he didn't lie. Maybe he really believed it. Same difference.)

Just a side note, this isn't true. LBJ chose not to continue his campaign after he did not win the New Hampshire primary by a large enough margin. When all was said and done, Richard Nixon won the election due, ultimately to George Wallace's independent run. Wallace did not really make Vietnam the central theme of his candidacy.


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