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1 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 8:26:09pm

It's difficult, because men wash out of these things in such vast numbers that the odds are good that many women attempting them won't succeed. And women are generally under much greater pressure to fail.

But when a man keels over, it doesn't mean that men in general aren't fit to do whatever it is. While each woman who doesn't make the grade will be seen as an exemplar of Why Women Can't And Shouldn't Try.

2 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Oct 16, 2012 9:08:48pm

It's a hell of a hard course. I looked at Ranger school and they have an equal washout rate so I can imagine what it takes. As Sgt Major Daly put it during the Battle of Belleau Wood, "Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever?" That's the attitude any good Infantry NCO or Officer has to have and live by to get through either school.

Reality? I would have probably failed by the halfway point, had I gone for it. I was a good Infantry soldier but not good enough for that.

My sister? She'd have made it in a walk. OTOH, she also retired as a Command Sergent Major and was probably the most "Hoo-ah" female trooper I have ever known.

I do not doubt that there are women who will successfully complete that course. There won't be many who want to and fewer still who will succeed. But I'd follow any of them even willing to try. That's where the real brass balls are...

3 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 6:39:19am

re: #1 SanFranciscoZionist

It's difficult, because men wash out of these things in such vast numbers that the odds are good that many women attempting them won't succeed. And women are generally under much greater pressure to fail.

But when a man keels over, it doesn't mean that men in general aren't fit to do whatever it is. While each woman who doesn't make the grade will be seen as an exemplar of Why Women Can't And Shouldn't Try.

I think the question raised by some people (not by me and I'll want to hear if you think it's trolling) is "Is allowing the few women who can pass such a course into combat positions worth the disruption they will likely cause?"

I'm not going to try to answer the question myself. Instead I'll let LGF's veterans answer it.

4 Destro  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:01:27am

re: #3 Dark_Falcon

The era where the American military is planning on fighting the USSR's imagined blitz through the Fulda Gap is over. The American military is mostly a jobs program anyway and has been for about 30 years now.

As we kill more enemies with robot weapons and special forces going forward we will need and use less and less traditional combat units.

I am not saying this is good or bad. It just is.

5 CuriousLurker  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 7:37:15am

re: #3 Dark_Falcon

I think the question raised by some people (not by me and I'll want to hear if you think it's trolling) is "Is allowing the few women who can pass such a course into combat positions worth the disruption they will likely cause?"

I'm not going to try to answer the question myself. Instead I'll let LGF's veterans answer it.

I'm not a veteran, but I can read. I just read the article twice to make sure I wasn't missing anything. What disruption?

The women are part of the program because the Marine Corps sought them out as volunteers for research initiated by them on how female marines might perform in combat roles that are currently forbidden to them.

I saw no mention whatsoever of the women's participation or their washing out being the cause of any special disruption. Where are you getting that from?

Are you just assuming there must have been disruption since it's a non-standard program for women? If that the case then, yeah, there probably was as some people don't like change and will resist it even if it's positive.

It seems pretty clear to me that the higher ups in the Corps are being proactive in this matter, so they must've felt that the long-term benefits of whatever knowledge they're gaining through their research outweighs any short-term disruption. I say good on them for being forward thinking and specifically seeking out women.

6 Locker  Wed, Oct 17, 2012 9:45:45am

This is not a comment on who should or shouldn't be allowed to join or perform certain jobs in the military.

However, saying that co-ed units aren't a disruption to military operations is extremely naive. Consensual relationships, sexual assaults, soldiers fighting over love triangles now have to be managed.

Additionally, I was first deployed during Desert Storm, to the Cement Factory in Dhahran we shared the site with thousands of other troops, all planning forward movements. During this time, 3 of the 11 women in our unit were busted and sent home for prostitution.

I think this would be the same situation if units were all women and you started bringing men, or if units were entirely gay (men or women) but to say that it's not a disruption to the historic model is inaccurate... based on my experience.


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