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1 Only The Lurker Knows  Thu, Oct 25, 2012 11:54:36am

I nominate this page for elevation to the Front Page. Very well written and powerful.

2 sauceruney  Thu, Oct 25, 2012 1:00:16pm

I sincerely hope males on that side of the ideological fence (all sides, really) can find what you're asking of them within themselves and help put these old ways of thinking behind us, collectively.

3 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Oct 25, 2012 1:38:20pm

Well said.

I'm afraid you're going to have to pick up that gauntlet though. These people are not prepared to listen. All the talking in the world isn't going to move them. When you talk all they hear is noise, like the adults in Peanuts animated cartoons.

And, quite simply, you are a threat to their power. Very few human beings give up their power willingly.

It's sad we have to still fight for women to be people after all these years.

4 Skip Intro  Thu, Oct 25, 2012 2:23:38pm

When you're talking about religious conservatives, you need to go right to the heart of the matter. Your ancient ancestor Eve disobeyed God and screwed things up for the rest of us, for all eternity. It's all well and good that our loving God decided to punish you with pain, and possibly death, during childbirth, but why should we men have to suffer too?

Consider yourself lucky that conservative men haven't locked you up in cages, only bringing you out to breed and clean the house.

5 celticdragon  Thu, Oct 25, 2012 2:55:26pm

I think the gauntlet will have to picked up, and that means confronting family members, co-workers and the idiot on FaceBook who sends you things you really wish he had not. It means when your blow hard uncle starts spouting off at Thanksgiving, you reply...politely but pointedly. It means you may not be having dinner with a lot of these folks in the future...because picking up the gauntlet means making these people learn to live with consequences: If they want to do harmful things to women, then they are not family anymore.

It is going to suck, but we cannot afford to humor these cretins any longer.

6 Sionainn  Thu, Oct 25, 2012 2:59:51pm

re: #5 celticdragon

I think the gauntlet will have to picked up, and that means confronting family members, co-workers and the idiot on FaceBook who sends you things you really wish he had not. It means when your blow hard uncle starts spouting off at Thanksgiving, you reply...politely but pointedly. It means you may not be having dinner with a lot of these folks in the future...because picking up the gauntlet means making these people learn to live with consequences: If they want to do harmful things to women, then they are not family anymore.

It is going to suck, but we cannot afford to humor these cretins any longer.

I've been challenging every single person who posts things that are all about denying women our hard earned rights. So far, I haven't had to do with family since they all agree with me (I'm lucky that way), but certainly have done it with friends and strangers alike.

7 CuriousLurker  Thu, Oct 25, 2012 4:15:02pm

Excellent—every, very well said!

8 lostlakehiker  Thu, Oct 25, 2012 10:16:50pm

It's a well written essay. Give it that. Still---

My daughters don't see it that way. Birth control is reasonably cheap and whether they're making more or making less, it's way less expensive than the pizza budget. So they don't much see why the law has to say that birth control shall be absolutely free to the woman.

Neither is religious. They don't have a theological dog in the fight.

Their response to the statements of an Akin or a Mourdock is the same as mine and yours: a snort of disgust and disbelief. How can this man be such an ignorant jerk? But they don't conclude that every Republican thinks that way. They know better. One's a Republican herself.

Neither is worried that Roe v Wade will be rescinded. That's not going to happen, for the same reason that birth control won't be abolished. People from both wings of politics want access to both.

But how, the one daughter wonders, can partial birth abortion be considered "abortion"? She knows her biology. A full term fetus, and a newborn baby, are different as a matter of law, but not as a matter of biology. Partial birth abortion, when performed on a normal full term fetus, is legally and, for the Left, culturally, merely another abortion, but the underlying reality is not pretty.


And how is it a war on women, to let women buy their own birth control, just like men buy their own condoms? Or pizza? Just because Republicans don't want the government to include a Pizzacare benefit in a mandatory FoodInsurance program, that doesn't mean the Republicans are engaged in a War On Cheese.

As to us Republican men, we give our money to women if we earn more. We kick in and ante up. We plug away at our jobs, so that the children will be safe and thrive. We aren't the men who love 'em and leave 'em. (* well, this doesn't break strictly along party lines. But statistically...) And if the women earn more, well, we stay the course. It's nice when the wife earns money. If she earns more, that's that much more for the family.

The author of this open letter to Republican Men is mistaken in her view of how we think and what we want. We wish her no ill. We, too, have families. Sometimes, the wife is the more ardent Republican. She's not waging a war on women either.

If we win this presidential election, things will be OK for women. Rightly or wrongly, we believe the economy will pick up, and that would be nice for women too. More likely we'll lose. If so, we won't riot.

9 Interesting Times  Fri, Oct 26, 2012 5:55:11am

re: #8 lostlakehiker

And how is it a war on women, to let women buy their own birth control, just like men buy their own condoms? Or pizza? Just because Republicans don't want the government to include a Pizzacare benefit in a mandatory FoodInsurance program, that doesn't mean the Republicans are engaged in a War On Cheese.

I don't have time right now to rebut your entire wall-of-text. But I will say the fact you can't see how woefully ignorant and insulting the above statement is proves the original author's point.

10 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Oct 26, 2012 8:45:12am

re: #5 celticdragon

I think the gauntlet will have to picked up, and that means confronting family members, co-workers and the idiot on FaceBook who sends you things you really wish he had not. It means when your blow hard uncle starts spouting off at Thanksgiving, you reply...politely but pointedly. It means you may not be having dinner with a lot of these folks in the future...because picking up the gauntlet means making these people learn to live with consequences: If they want to do harmful things to women, then they are not family anymore.

It is going to suck, but we cannot afford to humor these cretins any longer.

Yeah, already happening. Fuck em'

11 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Oct 26, 2012 8:50:09am

re: #8 lostlakehiker

It's a well written essay. Give it that. Still---

My daughters don't see it that way. Birth control is reasonably cheap and whether they're making more or making less, it's way less expensive than the pizza budget. So they don't much see why the law has to say that birth control shall be absolutely free to the woman.

Neither is religious. They don't have a theological dog in the fight.

Their response to the statements of an Akin or a Mourdock is the same as mine and yours: a snort of disgust and disbelief. How can this man be such an ignorant jerk? But they don't conclude that every Republican thinks that way. They know better. One's a Republican herself.

Neither is worried that Roe v Wade will be rescinded. That's not going to happen, for the same reason that birth control won't be abolished. People from both wings of politics want access to both.

But how, the one daughter wonders, can partial birth abortion be considered "abortion"? She knows her biology. A full term fetus, and a newborn baby, are different as a matter of law, but not as a matter of biology. Partial birth abortion, when performed on a normal full term fetus, is legally and, for the Left, culturally, merely another abortion, but the underlying reality is not pretty.

And how is it a war on women, to let women buy their own birth control, just like men buy their own condoms? Or pizza? Just because Republicans don't want the government to include a Pizzacare benefit in a mandatory FoodInsurance program, that doesn't mean the Republicans are engaged in a War On Cheese.

As to us Republican men, we give our money to women if we earn more. We kick in and ante up. We plug away at our jobs, so that the children will be safe and thrive. We aren't the men who love 'em and leave 'em. (* well, this doesn't break strictly along party lines. But statistically...) And if the women earn more, well, we stay the course. It's nice when the wife earns money. If she earns more, that's that much more for the family.

The author of this open letter to Republican Men is mistaken in her view of how we think and what we want. We wish her no ill. We, too, have families. Sometimes, the wife is the more ardent Republican. She's not waging a war on women either.

If we win this presidential election, things will be OK for women. Rightly or wrongly, we believe the economy will pick up, and that would be nice for women too. More likely we'll lose. If so, we won't riot.

All I can say is that I Hope your daughters never have anything bad happen to them.

I live with a Republican Man. I grew-up with a Republican Father. I think I might know you better, in some respects, that you know yourself. Just as you know your wife and daughters, in some respects, better than they know themselves.

As you only want the best for the women in your life, you hope and pray they take your advice and just trust on the faith of your love for them that you are correct. I'm telling you, your party has left you.

You are right, one Presidential election will not change everything in 4 years. Just remember, women fight differently than men. Our goals are different. This topic will not go away after the election, regardless of the outcome.

12 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 26, 2012 10:19:16am

re: #8 lostlakehiker

The law doesn't say that birth control should be free for women. Why lie?

Neither is worried that Roe v Wade will be rescinded. That's not going to happen, for the same reason that birth control won't be abolished. People from both wings of politics want access to both.

Why ignore the actual legislation curtailing abortion and birth control access?

13 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 26, 2012 11:48:58am

re: #12 Obdicut

The law doesn't say that birth control should be free for women. Why lie?

Why ignore the actual legislation curtailing abortion and birth control access?

No lie. It does say exactly that. Birth control must be covered. Period. Under virtually no circumstances is the woman to be left on her own to buy her own. Not even if the employer is a Catholic hospital. And the argument has been that to leave it to a woman to buy this is to deny her her right to have it. Which is transparently a lie. A man, or woman, with money in their pocket has not been denied a right to food just because there is no government food insurance program that provides food with no copay.

The debate on this provision of Obamacare is not over whether birth control products should be for sale. The debate is whether or not religious institutions shall be required by law to provide it as part of the policy. No copays, even. In other words, free. Zero marginal cost.

As to legislation curtailing birth control access, I don't expect it to pass. I don't want it to pass. It doesn't have broad support---how could it pass?

As to legislation curtailing abortion access, that's problematic. Parts of the Deep South are going off the rails here. It's enough to tempt a secular Republican to vote Democrat. If I lived there, which I don't.

It gets old, being accused of lies. Nothing in the first post was a lie. Nothing in this one is either.

14 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 26, 2012 12:04:06pm

re: #9 Interesting Times

I don't have time right now to rebut your entire wall-of-text. But I will say the fact you can't see how woefully ignorant and insulting the above statement is proves the original author's point.

The insult to women is the implicit claim that they are too irresponsible and improvident to be left to finance their own birth control. So much so, that even if we restrict attention to those who work for religious hospitals and schools and have an income stream, this holds.

Why else would it be so important to the Left? Another reason does come to mind---that the left calculates that by insisting upon this point, it can break the Catholic church in America. Severed from its hospitals and schools and universities, it will lose its vitality. Adherents will peel off because they can't connect their faith to daily life. A win for the Left. It will come to that. The church will not and cannot just go along here.

Is that it? Those are the two choices the left has, as far as I can see. You-all just can't be worked up over a right that ten dollars a month out of the coffee budget could cover, on behalf of a small number of women who by definition have their own income stream. The right at issue isn't the right to use birth control. It's the right to make the church buy it for you.

15 Interesting Times  Fri, Oct 26, 2012 12:07:33pm

re: #14 lostlakehiker

*facepalm*

Here. Read this. The whole thing, please. If you still can't get it afterwards, there's no hope.

16 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 26, 2012 12:16:50pm

re: #13 lostlakehiker

No lie. It does say exactly that. Birth control must be covered.

Under the insurance she's already paying for, right?

Which is transparently a lie. A man, or woman, with money in their pocket has not been denied a right to food just because there is no government food insurance program that provides food with no copay.

I'm glad you're good at destroying your own argument here.

The debate on this provision of Obamacare is not over whether birth control products should be for sale. The debate is whether or not religious institutions shall be required by law to provide it as part of the policy. No copays, even. In other words, free. Zero marginal cost.

Ah, the weasel argument comes out-- marginal cost. They do pay for it, though, right?

As to legislation curtailing abortion access, that's problematic. Parts of the Deep South are going off the rails here. It's enough to tempt a secular Republican to vote Democrat. If I lived there, which I don't.

It's not just the South. Why lie? Or are you just desperately uninformed?

It gets old, being accused of lies. Nothing in the first post was a lie. Nothing in this one is either.

I believe that you don't think you're lying. That just means you're lying to yourself, though. To the rest of us, it's still just a lie. You claim that women who pay for health insurance or get their insurance as compensation for work are getting something for free when it has no copay. They pay for insurance, and you're saying it's free. That's a lie.

17 Sionainn  Fri, Oct 26, 2012 12:18:05pm

re: #13 lostlakehiker

No lie. It does say exactly that. Birth control must be covered. Period. Under virtually no circumstances is the woman to be left on her own to buy her own. Not even if the employer is a Catholic hospital. And the argument has been that to leave it to a woman to buy this is to deny her her right to have it. Which is transparently a lie. A man, or woman, with money in their pocket has not been denied a right to food just because there is no government food insurance program that provides food with no copay.

The debate on this provision of Obamacare is not over whether birth control products should be for sale. The debate is whether or not religious institutions shall be required by law to provide it as part of the policy. No copays, even. In other words, free. Zero marginal cost.

As to legislation curtailing birth control access, I don't expect it to pass. I don't want it to pass. It doesn't have broad support---how could it pass?

As to legislation curtailing abortion access, that's problematic. Parts of the Deep South are going off the rails here. It's enough to tempt a secular Republican to vote Democrat. If I lived there, which I don't.

It gets old, being accused of lies. Nothing in the first post was a lie. Nothing in this one is either.

Only new plans have to cover birth control without copays, just as it is with mammograms and colonoscopies. Other existing plans must provide coverage, but the insured pays for part of it. Are you just as concerned about those poor religious institutions having to provide coverage for "free" colonoscopies or mammograms?

18 Sionainn  Fri, Oct 26, 2012 12:21:33pm

re: #14 lostlakehiker

The insult to women is the implicit claim that they are too irresponsible and improvident to be left to finance their own birth control. So much so, that even if we restrict attention to those who work for religious hospitals and schools and have an income stream, this holds.

Why else would it be so important to the Left? Another reason does come to mind---that the left calculates that by insisting upon this point, it can break the Catholic church in America. Severed from its hospitals and schools and universities, it will lose its vitality. Adherents will peel off because they can't connect their faith to daily life. A win for the Left. It will come to that. The church will not and cannot just go along here.

Is that it? Those are the two choices the left has, as far as I can see. You-all just can't be worked up over a right that ten dollars a month out of the coffee budget could cover, on behalf of a small number of women who by definition have their own income stream. The right at issue isn't the right to use birth control. It's the right to make the church buy it for you.

Arrggghh. You do realize that birth control doesn't always cost only "$10"?

Why is it that men who are arguing about this birth control issue never fail to throw in how this is so incredibly demeaning to women, that it means that women aren't capable of taking care of themselves? What a bunch of poppycock.

19 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Oct 26, 2012 7:51:45pm

re: #15 Interesting Times

*facepalm*

Here. Read this. The whole thing, please. If you still can't get it afterwards, there's no hope.

EXCELLENT!

20 JamesWI  Fri, Oct 26, 2012 9:28:18pm

re: #14 lostlakehiker

The insult to women is the implicit claim that they are too irresponsible and improvident to be left to finance their own birth control. So much so, that even if we restrict attention to those who work for religious hospitals and schools and have an income stream, this holds.

Why else would it be so important to the Left? Another reason does come to mind---that the left calculates that by insisting upon this point, it can break the Catholic church in America. Severed from its hospitals and schools and universities, it will lose its vitality. Adherents will peel off because they can't connect their faith to daily life. A win for the Left. It will come to that. The church will not and cannot just go along here.

Is that it? Those are the two choices the left has, as far as I can see. You-all just can't be worked up over a right that ten dollars a month out of the coffee budget could cover, on behalf of a small number of women who by definition have their own income stream. The right at issue isn't the right to use birth control. It's the right to make the church buy it for you.

Yes, it is so insulting to women to give birth control pills the same kind of respect and insurance coverage we give boner pills.

They should be downright furious that something as trivial as birth control could ever be seen as even half as important as boner pills. Boner pills, the penicillin of our generation.

21 JamesWI  Fri, Oct 26, 2012 9:37:55pm

re: #14 lostlakehiker

The insult to women is the implicit claim that they are too irresponsible and improvident to be left to finance their own birth control. So much so, that even if we restrict attention to those who work for religious hospitals and schools and have an income stream, this holds.

Why else would it be so important to the Left? Another reason does come to mind---that the left calculates that by insisting upon this point, it can break the Catholic church in America. Severed from its hospitals and schools and universities, it will lose its vitality. Adherents will peel off because they can't connect their faith to daily life. A win for the Left. It will come to that. The church will not and cannot just go along here.

Is that it? Those are the two choices the left has, as far as I can see. You-all just can't be worked up over a right that ten dollars a month out of the coffee budget could cover, on behalf of a small number of women who by definition have their own income stream. The right at issue isn't the right to use birth control. It's the right to make the church buy it for you.

Wow, I didn't bother to read through this comment before I posted. I didn't get to see the sheer profundity of your stupidity.

Yes. The left thinks that by "forcing" a Catholic Hospital to provide contraceptive coverage for their employees, that's going to drive people away from the Church.

Yep. You've got us. That is a completely reasonable conclusion to draw, and you found out our secret plan. We want contraceptive coverage in order to destroy the Catholic Church. And we would have gotten away with it, if it weren't for that meddling, brilliant lostlakehiker.

Hey guys. Guess we better think up another way to destroy the Church. This one's done.

22 JamesWI  Fri, Oct 26, 2012 9:59:11pm

I also love the idea that the shock of a Catholic Hospital covering the birth control pill for their non-Catholic employees will cause an exodus of loyal Catholics to leave the faith.

You know, the people who stuck around through that whole "Scores of priests molesting little boys and the Vatican covering up for them" ordeal. That was nothing! But the birth control pill is so controversial and evil that they can't abide a private insurance company covering non-Catholics who work for a Catholic organization! That's just too much!

23 Sionainn  Sat, Oct 27, 2012 6:15:23am

re: #22 JamesWI

I also love the idea that the shock of a Catholic Hospital covering the birth control pill for their non-Catholic employees will cause an exodus of loyal Catholics to leave the faith.

You know, the people who stuck around through that whole "Scores of priests molesting little boys and the Vatican covering up for them" ordeal. That was nothing! But the birth control pill is so controversial and evil that they can't abide a private insurance company covering non-Catholics who work for a Catholic organization! That's just too much!

Don't forget to consider that the majority of Catholic women have used birth control at one time or another.

24 Gretchen G.Tiger  Sat, Oct 27, 2012 7:26:02am

re: #23 Sionainn

Don't forget to consider that the majority of Catholic women AND MEN have used birth control at one time or another.

ftfy :)


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