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1 researchok  Wed, Oct 31, 2012 12:35:13am

Nothing in this story is unknown or really news.

What is significant is Boshra's story is being told- and that in itself makes people uncomfortable because it upsets a tried and proven, well crafted narrative.

Of lies.

2 War On Music  Wed, Oct 31, 2012 9:34:45am

Three things:

That she is in essence advocating that Israeli Arabs give up any voice in the Knesset by having them vote for Jewish parties would mean the continued alienation of Israeli Palestinians from the state that she is promoting.

Second

“Just as I accept that someone from, say, Lebanon has his own identity, he needs to accept that I was born in Israel. The Palestinians born in Lebanon are still stuck in camps on the border. They are not recognized by Lebanon; they are not even considered residents; even to marry a Lebanese, to get a Lebanese ID card down the line is impossible. There is no family reunification. It’s simple: You need to appreciate that everyone has their own reality.”

This cuts into the Zionist instance that all that needs to happen for Palestinian refugees in places like Lebanon is for the Lebanese to absorb them because an Arab is an Arab. A Palestinian is distinct from Lebanon, Egypt, etc. As such, the full right of return needs to happen for Palestinian refugees.

Third: her instance that "politics is dirty" and that her job is not a political but a personal is a hollow one. Not mentioning that her tour is sponsored by the Ministry of Propaganda, the conflict is a political one, and while personal stories are interesting in puff pieces, focusing on individuals anecdotal stories will never solve an institutional conflict and crisis.

3 researchok  Wed, Oct 31, 2012 11:18:15am

re: #2 War On Music

Interesting.

Where does she explicitly say she advocates for the elimination of an Arab voice in the Knesset? Or do you have greater insight and expertise than the rest of us?

That you might believe Arab politicians who align themselves with those within the Palestinian community and elsewhere in the Arab world who demand Israel's destruction and reiterate calls for genocide are perfectly acceptable forms of expression speaks more to you morality (or rather, lack thereof) than anything else.

The rest of your remarks are a testament to you complete lack of understand of the issues at hand.

Which given your past 'insights' isn't exactly news.

4 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 31, 2012 11:57:09am

re: #2 War On Music

Three things:

That she is in essence advocating that Israeli Arabs give up any voice in the Knesset by having them vote for Jewish parties would mean the continued alienation of Israeli Palestinians from the state that she is promoting.

Second

This cuts into the Zionist instance that all that needs to happen for Palestinian refugees in places like Lebanon is for the Lebanese to absorb them because an Arab is an Arab. A Palestinian is distinct from Lebanon, Egypt, etc. As such, the full right of return needs to happen for Palestinian refugees.

Third: her instance that "politics is dirty" and that her job is not a political but a personal is a hollow one. Not mentioning that her tour is sponsored by the Ministry of Propaganda, the conflict is a political one, and while personal stories are interesting in puff pieces, focusing on individuals anecdotal stories will never solve an institutional conflict and crisis.

Your points here would get you further if

A. you were not engaging in a ridiculous argument for the 'right of return' which ignores both historical fact and political reality, and

B. you were not dismissing this woman's experience and belief because you, of course, know better, and this is a 'puff piece'. Why do I expect you'd feel differently about the significance of personal anecdote if she agreed with your political analysis?

5 researchok  Wed, Oct 31, 2012 12:02:51pm

re: #4 SanFranciscoZionist

War on's remarks are yet another 'pivot and attack' type argument predicated on deliberate distortions or worse- an attempt to ignore reality so as make an agenda/ideology fit.

Not exactly a display of critical thinking skills.

6 War On Music  Wed, Oct 31, 2012 12:20:21pm

re: #4 SanFranciscoZionist

1. Why would I want to "go further"? I not interested in the high school popularity contest mentality of the internet.

I am not dismissing anything. Rather I think there needs to be a deeper analysis of what she is saying rather then accepting it at face value. Despite her claims to be 'apolitical', her mission is a very political mission, and as such cannot be separated out from the rest of the systemic issues at hand, particularly attempts to alienate the Palestinian national minority (even if one disagrees with what they say) .

researchok: You want to talk 'pivot and attack', why does the interviewee talk so much about how terrible Saudi Arabia is when asked about the issues of discrimination facing Israeli Palestinians? Is there some sort of magical 'hierarchy of oppression' which lets Israel off the hook so long as the Saudis are doing something terrible (good thing the Saudis have China, China has North Korea....)

7 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 31, 2012 12:26:48pm

re: #6 War On Music

1. Why would I want to "go further"? I not interested in the high school popularity contest mentality of the internet.

I am not dismissing anything. Rather I think there needs to be a deeper analysis of what she is saying rather then accepting it at face value. Despite her claims to be 'apolitical', her mission is a very political mission, and as such cannot be separated out from the rest of the systemic issues at hand, particularly attempts to alienate the Palestinian national minority (even if one disagrees with what they say) .

researchok: You want to talk 'pivot and attack', why does the interviewee talk so much about how terrible Saudi Arabia is when asked about the issues of discrimination facing Israeli Palestinians? Is there some sort of magical 'hierarchy of oppression' which lets Israel off the hook so long as the Saudis are doing something terrible (good thing the Saudis have China, China has North Korea....)

Look who thinks he's an intellectual.

8 researchok  Wed, Oct 31, 2012 12:29:09pm

re: #6 War On Music

You responded with yet another pivot and attack. Why blame the author- she posited her view.

You did not discuss Saudi Arabia, or for that matter nor did you present a substantive argument about Palestinian ' mistreatment'.

As for the rest of your remarks they do not substantively address the issues being discussed. Now as before, you are attempting to divert and deflect attention from your own poorly argued remarks.

You have not addressed SFZ's or my own previous remarks, choosing instead to pivot and attack, to make this about anything other than your own indefensible assertions.

Which, all things considered, is predictable behavior.

9 researchok  Wed, Oct 31, 2012 12:33:42pm

re: #7 SanFranciscoZionist

Look who thinks he's an intellectual.

A sign of the times- I have no doubt you've seen this kind of thing in your classroom or parent-teacher meetings..

'Why on earth would you give my child a 'B'?? What is wrong with you? Who can I complain to?' This is an outrage!'

It reminds of the self absorbed kid who says, ' I am an artist because I say I am an artist.'

No, you are an artist if everyone else says you are an artist.

Reality is a pesky thing.

10 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 31, 2012 4:10:07pm

re: #2 War On Music

As SFZ pointed out, the 'right of return' should be filed under "never gonna happen". There is zero support for any such thing in Israel among those who are not Arabs. The Palestinians have made clear their commitment to violent intransigence and the Israelis would be insane to allow into their nation a population that hates them with the utmost intensity.

11 War On Music  Wed, Oct 31, 2012 4:43:55pm

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

apparently Arab voices only matter so long as they are on hasbara tours.

12 researchok  Wed, Oct 31, 2012 5:01:36pm

re: #11 War On Music

Are you saying all Hasbara is wrong? Can you provide examples of the tsunami of false Hasbara?

Is Hasbara which exposes rank antisemitism, calls to genocide, deliberate deception and phony moral equivalence wrong?

13 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Oct 31, 2012 6:22:02pm

re: #11 War On Music

apparently Arab voices only matter so long as they are on hasbara tours.

Which Arab voices are we talking about here?

That said, the right of return is a political football. A large number of Palestinians want it as an option, largely, I think, for its symbolic and emotional value. A much smaller number actually say they'd have any interest in exercising it. An unviably low percentage of both Palestinians and Israelis see a one-state solution as a possibility. Neither Israel nor hypothetical-Palestine can function without control over immigration into their territories. So that's the end of that, for the foreseeable future.

But you don't care, because you're deflecting.

14 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 31, 2012 6:29:15pm

re: #13 SanFranciscoZionist

Which Arab voices are we talking about here?

That said, the right of return is a political football. A large number of Palestinians want it as an option, largely, I think, for its symbolic and emotional value. A much smaller number actually say they'd have any interest in exercising it. An unviably low percentage of both Palestinians and Israelis see a one-state solution as a possibility. Neither Israel nor hypothetical-Palestine can function without control over immigration into their territories. So that's the end of that, for the foreseeable future.

But you don't care, because you're deflecting.

Deflection is all he's got, since he's long since out of viable ideas.

15 researchok  Wed, Oct 31, 2012 6:32:23pm

re: #14 Dark_Falcon

War On more like a Starbuck's Jihadi- because it's trendy, he's there.

No need for substance- just see and be seen, recite the talking points and hey, you're in!

16 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Oct 31, 2012 6:33:47pm

re: #15 researchok

War On more like a Starbuck's Jihadi- because it's trendy, he's there.

No need for substance- just see and be seen, recite the talking points and hey, you're in!

Like a 1920's speakeasy, with the password being "DERP!".

17 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Nov 1, 2012 1:06:08pm

re: #13 SanFranciscoZionist

And this is one argument I must recuse myself from.

Why? My Imam is half-Palestinian, and 2 other friends are Palestinian in whole. I have a personal connection and emotional investment in the Palestinians. I'm hoping a Third Party will come about that will sweep both Fatah and Hamas out.

However, with Lieberman and Netanyahu in power, the settlements will continue to be built, what little is left of the Palestinian West Bank will continue to be taken, and the remaining towns choked off. And the checkpoints surrounding each Palestinian enclave will make inter city commerce impossible.

Unless the whole West Bank region for a proposed state is contiguous, and has a border to Jordan (So it isn't in a Lesotho situation), any Palestinian State would be unviable.

18 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 1, 2012 2:55:46pm

If you're going to toss out downdings, Destro, at least post and explain why. Stealth-dinging is the act of a chickenshit.

19 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 1, 2012 3:10:43pm

re: #17 ProGunLiberal

That is fair and decent of you, PLL.

20 Destro  Thu, Nov 1, 2012 5:18:34pm

re: #18 Dark_Falcon

That you fall for propaganda like this is not worthy of a comment but since you asked.... Pravda used to write better and less obvious party propaganda than this article.

21 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 1, 2012 7:10:10pm

re: #20 Destro

That you fall for propaganda like this is not worthy of a comment but since you asked.... Pravda used to write better and less obvious party propaganda than this article.

It seems to me inappropriate to compare the Times of Israel, a party-independent(online) newspaper in a nation with freedom of the press to a state-controlled propaganda sheet like Pravda. I'll not downding you for now, (and I ask that you hold fire in reciprocal fashion), but I would ask you to explain how you reached your conclusion that this is a piece of "party propaganda".

22 researchok  Thu, Nov 1, 2012 7:13:04pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

He has nothing substantive to add, so he resorts to deflection and pivot and attack.

He is what he is,

Personally, I now find it entertaining.

23 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 1, 2012 7:16:17pm

re: #22 researchok

He has nothing substantive to add, so he resorts to deflection and pivot and attack.

He is what he is,

Personally, I now find it entertaining.

I'm am going to give Destro a chance on this point, as I feel I have enough grasp of the situation to hold my position and because I really want to hear his justification for his statement.

24 researchok  Thu, Nov 1, 2012 7:47:26pm

re: #23 Dark_Falcon

We shall see, but from where I sit, that is like asking him to defend the flat earthers.

25 Gus  Thu, Nov 1, 2012 10:46:08pm

This seems like a fair debate.

//

26 Flavia  Thu, Nov 1, 2012 10:56:55pm

re: #17 ProGunLiberal

And this is one argument I must recuse myself from.

Then please do not feel obligated to answer me simply because I am jumping off one of your points - I will NOT be insulted if you ignore this/me.

Unless the whole West Bank region for a proposed state is contiguous, and has a border to Jordan (So it isn't in a Lesotho situation), any Palestinian State would be unviable.

I have often thought of this, myself, but there are a number of reasons it will never happen - the biggest one being Jordan. As I recall, King Abdullah sent a sharply worded telegram to the Israeli PM when Israel finally just gave the Palestinians the West Bank, telling him not to give them anymore territory.

The other reason is that contiguity (is that even a word? Not pinging my spell-check, so it must be!) could only be managed through draconian efforts: the least offensive version being to measure every centimeter of land in Gaza, map out an equal amount of land surrounding the West Bank, and forcibly swap everyone. Can anyone see that happening? Neither can I.

Oh, as, as far as "Right of Return" goes, that is an impossibility, and not because "Israel hates Arabs." It's because those who use the phrase are using it in exactly the same way Jews do. Jews want to return to their ancient homeland. And the Arabs who use the phrase do NOT mean "we want to go live in Israel." And Israel isn't going anywhere any time soon. Even if they say they "just want their homes back", the problem is that they do not want to live in Israel, or even officially acknowledge it. And I say this not so much because "I'm psychic & know what everyone's thinking", I say it because that's how the politics has been going. The very usage of the phrase is extremely recent, and it's meant to throw another monkey wrench into the works. Because peace isn't profitable for the terrorists who have a stranglehold on the population.

27 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 1, 2012 11:28:24pm

Here's an idea that has popped up in the last few days.

28 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 2, 2012 12:02:12am

re: #27 Bob Levin

Here's an idea that has popped up in the last few days.

That would be unlikely to meet with King Abdullah's approval. He would not want to add hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, thousands of them radicalized, to his kingdom. If done, it is difficult to see how the Hashemite Dynasty would remain on the the throne in Jordan. But that might possibly be what Mr. Kaddoumi wants, since it would be his PLO/PA that would be likely to take over.

Bob, that article really does deserve its own Page. You found it, so if you wish to put up the Page yourself, please do so with my blessing. If not, I would ask your permission to do so myself.

29 Bob Levin  Fri, Nov 2, 2012 12:12:08am

re: #28 Dark_Falcon

Go ahead. I saw this in the JPost. I didn't post it because my reaction was--'yeah, right.' Would the West Bank be among the most arable land in Jordan? I think with drip irrigation properly applied, you could grow things.

30 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 2, 2012 9:56:28am

re: #29 Bob Levin

Go ahead. I saw this in the JPost. I didn't post it because my reaction was--'yeah, right.' Would the West Bank be among the most arable land in Jordan? I think with drip irrigation properly applied, you could grow things.

Thanks. I just put the Page up.


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