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1 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 8:52:33am

Although it would be more accurate for the headline to read "After Years of Rocket Attacks by Hamas" or "After a Major Upsurge in Rocket Attacks by Hamas".

2 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 9:03:05am

re: #1 sliv_the_eli

Although it would be more accurate for the headline to read "After Years of Rocket Attacks by Hamas" or "After a Major Upsurge in Rocket Attacks by Hamas".

I know. It's the major increase of rocket attacks over the past month or so that pushed Israel over the edge. I expect the UN to condemn the attacks on the terrorists in Gaza in a few days.

3 Rochi613  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 10:02:57am

The 20 sites the IDF hit first housed long-range launchers capable of striking Tel Aviv.

The whole country is on alert.

4 War On Music  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 10:25:54am

Solidarity with the children and people of Gaza who are being collectively punished for the acts of a small group of individuals.

5 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 10:27:59am

re: #4 War On Music

Solidarity with the children and people of Gaza who are being collectively punished for the acts of a small group of individuals.

In what way are they being collectively punished? Are you saying Israel is bombing indiscriminately?

6 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 10:35:13am

re: #4 War On Music

Solidarity with the children and people of Gaza who are being collectively punished for the acts of a small group of individuals.

Those terrorists use women and children as human shields all the time. Who is punishing who?

7 War On Music  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 10:37:19am

Collective punishment is the punishment of a group of people as a result of the behavior of one or more other individuals or groups. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. The people of Gaza, the children of Gaza, have no direct control over the actions of small bands of individuals, and yet they are the ones who are getting bombed. Within an area of 360 km² there is literally no way not to kill civilians, and Israel knows this. Despite it's propaganda that they only target military installations, the people and children of Gaza are the ones who are most directly and indirectly effected by any kind of bombing in retaliation to these small, ineffective groups.

re: #6 NJDhockeyfan

That makes it alright then? I guess The Kings Torah is what rules Israel now.

8 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 10:42:45am

re: #7 War On Music

The people of Gaza, the children of Gaza, have no direct control over the actions of small bands of individuals, and yet they are the ones who are getting bombed.

They know exactly who those individuals are and voted them in to run their government. They don't deserve to be killed in the line of fire but Hamas and the other terrorist groups are more than happy to let it happen. It makes for great propaganda against Israel in their minds.

9 Buck  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 10:44:40am

re: #4 War On Music

Solidarity with the children and people of Gaza who are being collectively punished for the acts of a small group of individuals.

You are clearly horrified by the sight of Jews defending themselves.

You should simply get used to it. No other group or country would be asked to NOT defend themselves against deadly aggression.

If Israel wanted to level all of Gaza, they could with impunity. They choose not to. They haven't and they wont. They attack only those terrorists responsible for the carnage and misery. Israel still uses only a fraction of the military capabilities at its disposal and yet the media and the anti-Semites and anti-Israel crowd wants to further restrain and constrain Israel's right to defend itself.

10 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 10:49:23am

re: #7 War On Music

I'm sorry, are you really saying that no military can attack a target in a city?

Despite it's propaganda that they only target military installations, the people and children of Gaza are the ones who are most directly and indirectly effected by any kind of bombing in retaliation to these small, ineffective groups.

Assuming that you're sincere, I've got three questions for you.

What should the Israeli response be to continued rocket attacks? Is there any action you think would be allowable?

Why won't or can't Hamas not enforce the ceasefire they promised?

You keep referring to small groups, but Hamas itself has as a party plank the destruction of Israel. You understand that, right?

11 War On Music  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 11:27:35am

re: #8 NJDhockeyfan

There are far more complicated reasons the people of Gaza voted from Hamas, one being a vote against the corruption of Fatah. Your statement is more or less a justification of collective punishment ("well, Gaza should have voted for the party of Israels choosing").

re: #9 Buck

you clearly are far too comfortable with images of Arab children being murdered.

I am saying that no other country should do this. The USA should not have gone into Afghanistan or Iraq. Just because other countries or groups do it, does not make it a moral action. I have a Mennonite background, all war is murder and the 6th commandment is "Thou shall not Murder".

What should the Israeli response be to continued rocket attacks? Is there any action you think would be allowable?

Iron Dome. Moving civilians out of cities that are close to a conflict zone. At most, I can directly targeted assignation by Mossad agents, never bombing.

Why won't or can't Hamas not enforce the ceasefire they promised?

Lack of a legitimized, non-partisan state apparatus (army, police force) able to engage in policing criminal elements within the resistance. Since there own militia is a illegal terrorist organization, there is no way of systematic suppression of terroristic elements until there is an official "State of Palestine".

You keep referring to small groups, but Hamas itself has as a party plank the destruction of Israel. You understand that, right?

These are the party planks of the current ruling party in Israel within there charter:

"The Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza are the realization of Zionist values. Settlement of the land is a clear expression of the unassailable right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel and constitutes an important asset in the defense of the vital interests of the State of Israel. The Likud will continue to strengthen and develop these communities and will prevent their uprooting."

"Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel. The government will flatly reject Palestinian proposals to divide Jerusalem, including the plan to divide the city presented to the Knesset by the Arab factions and supported by many members of Labor and Meretz."

"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river. The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state. Thus, for example, in matters of foreign affairs, security, immigration and ecology, their activity shall be limited in accordance with imperatives of Israel’s existence, security and national needs."

So, both the current Israel government and the Hamas government reject each others right to exist. My question is, which body has the actual power to make non-existence a reality?

12 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 11:34:17am

re: #11 War On Music

Iron Dome. Moving civilians out of cities that are close to a conflict zone.

One million Israeli citizens live within range of Hamas rocket fire. (Not in what is called "occupied territory" unless you consider the entire state of 1948 Israel "occupied")

13 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 11:39:02am

re: #11 War On Music

So, both the current Israel government and the Hamas government reject each others right to exist. My question is, which body has the actual power to make non-existence a reality?

The Likud's rejection of self-rule is crappy, and should be modified to show that it's short-term. Sadly, I don't believe that a lot of members of Likud are sincere in their belief that the situation can be improved. I think that their swing to the right shows that they've given up, and that's bad, and scary. I'm not in the least bit a Likud supporter.

But that language clearly recognizes self-rule. By contrast, Hamas (and Fatah, for that matter) both state that the entirety of Palestine is Palestine, and that's it. Furthermore, Jews are forbidden to live in Palestine. The two planks are not comparable.

Iron Dome. Moving civilians out of cities that are close to a conflict zone. At most, I can directly targeted assignation by Mossad agents, never bombing.

Moving civilians is not feasible. Iron Dome is imperfect. Your solution is not a solution. Do you care to try again? If a rocket is firing on Israeli positions, are they allowed to attack it while it's firing?

14 Bob Levin  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 11:41:31am

re: #11 War On Music

I have a Mennonite background, all war is murder and the 6th commandment is "Thou shall not Murder".

Mistranslation. You might want to examine that.

Who are you to bring up a complete piece of crap like the King's Torah--granted it's is a slur concocted by a rabbi, an idiot. But that is scraping the bottom for a 'source'. Isn't there anything you believe in about arguing fairly?

15 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 11:42:58am

re: #14 Bob Levin

Mistranslation. You might want to examine that.

Actually WOM is correct. "Lo Tirtzoch" is "Thou shalt not commit murder." "Thou shalt not kill" is Lo Lehoreg.

16 War On Music  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 11:45:36am

re: #13 Obdicut

The Likud's rejection of self-rule is crappy, and should be modified to show that it's short-term. Sadly, I don't believe that a lot of members of Likud are sincere in their belief that the situation can be improved. I think that their swing to the right shows that they've given up, and that's bad, and scary. I'm not in the least bit a Likud supporter.

But that language clearly recognizes self-rule. By contrast, Hamas (and Fatah, for that matter) both state that the entirety of Palestine is Palestine, and that's it. Furthermore, Jews are forbidden to live in Palestine. The two planks are not comparable.

"self-rule" is not a recognition of a right to exist, especially as an independent and sovereignty body. At best, "self-rule" is racism, At worst, "self-rule" is apartheid, to live as second class citizens without civil rights based on a racial classification, that the entirety of Palestine is Israel. They are clangorous, and if you do not fell that they are, then you have a major blind spot.

have to run. bye.

17 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 11:49:35am

re: #16 War On Music

"self-rule" is not a recognition of a right to exist, especially as an independent and sovereignty body.

It is a recognition of a right to exist. In this case, it's obvious that the historical context-- decades of attack from Palestine against Israel-- is the backdrop for this, which is why the security essentials are in there.

At best, "self-rule" is racism, At worst, "self-rule" is apartheid, to live as second class citizens without civil rights based on a racial classification, that the entirety of Palestine is Israel.

No, self-rule would mean they paid no taxes to Israel and owed them no obligations, so entirely different from Apartheid. They would not in any way be citizens of Israel.

I agree that it cannot be a permanent state, for Israel to militarily oversee the Palestinian state, but it is a possible route to full sovereignty. If that situation actually came about, and Palestine peaceably co-existed for a decade with Israel, it'd completely drive the crazies in Israel out of power.

They are clangorous, and if you do not fell that they are, then you have a major blind spot.

They are... noisy?

18 Bob Levin  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 11:50:18am

re: #15 Vicious Babushka

The Ba'al HaTurim translates this as Thou Shall Not Kill. Aside from the literal meaning, there is an essense to the commandment, much closer to the Ba'al HaTurim's understanding.

19 Gus  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 12:02:09pm
20 Gus  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 12:02:34pm
21 Bob Levin  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 12:04:45pm

re: #15 Vicious Babushka

Artscroll Rashi: Thou Shall Not Kill.

22 Bob Levin  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 12:06:50pm

re: #20 Gus

It is war, has been for a long time. I wish there wasn't a war. Awaiting your tweets from Sederot.

23 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 12:08:29pm

re: #20 Gus

I really hope this action from Israel was necessary, and that this isn't just the new ultra-right coalition flexing their muscles and trying to look tough. I really wish Bibi hadn't allied with those assholes. It takes away so much credibility from his government.

God I had such hope when The Troubles were resolved. Those seemed impossible to ever fix as well. I can't do anything else but hope for an end to this too.

24 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 12:28:38pm

re: #18 Bob Levin

VB's translation is correct both literally and conceptually in Jewish thought. The Torah does not prohibit killing as an absolute matter. The 6th of the "ten Commandments" prohibits murder, the wrongful taking of a life. One is always permitted to take a life when necessary, for example, when it is necessary in self-defense. (E.g., the tradition of the Oral Law, "hakam l'hargechah, hashkem l'hargo", which translates as "He who rises to kill you, rise up and kill him [first]"). The Torah, like most modern legal systems, intentionally prohibits murder, not killing, in recognition of the qualitative difference between the two.

Which is not to say that taking a life is a positive thing -- after all, every person is described in the Torah as being created in the image of the Lord -- but sometimes it is unfortunately necessary in order to prevent a greater evil. And in those cases, the taking of the life is killing, nor murder.

25 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 12:33:02pm

re: #7 War On Music

Collective punishment is the punishment of a group of people as a result of the behavior of one or more other individuals or groups. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. The people of Gaza, the children of Gaza, have no direct control over the actions of small bands of individuals, and yet they are the ones who are getting bombed. Within an area of 360 km² there is literally no way not to kill civilians, and Israel knows this. Despite it's propaganda that they only target military installations, the people and children of Gaza are the ones who are most directly and indirectly effected by any kind of bombing in retaliation to these small, ineffective groups.

That makes it alright then? I guess The Kings Torah is what rules Israel now.

While it clearly offends your sensibilities that the Jewish State occasionally defends itself, even after allowing its people to absorb far greater violence than would any other sovereign nation on the face of the planet, the good old days when Jews could be killed for sport are over. Get used to it.

26 Buck  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 12:34:09pm

re: #11 War On Music

you clearly are far too comfortable with images of Arab children being murdered.

There is ONLY ONE WAY for the deaths of any children to stop. I will give you a hint, it is NOT to stop defending the lives of Jewish children.

You are grossly mistaken if you really believe that I am comfortable with any children being hurt or terrorized in any way.

However if children you knew were being targeted, you would want to defend against it.

27 Bob Levin  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 12:36:23pm

re: #24 sliv_the_eli

Agreed. But in the context of discussions regarding Israel defending itself, there are always those who will use this commandment to illustrate that even killing in self-defense is wrong. Hence, 768 rockets are little more than mosquito bites. Whereas a successful attempt to destroy Hamas leadership and destroy long range rocket depots is a Biblical violation.

I wrote hastily. Nevertheless, the translations that I cited are accurate, in that this is how they translated the commandment.

28 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 12:41:34pm

re: #20 Gus

We weep for her as we do for the victims of the incessant attacks from the Gaza Strip.

One key difference, though. You can be sure that the IDF, unlike those who repeatedly fire missiles at Israeli residential communities, did not intentionally set out to try and kill a child.

29 Bob Levin  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 12:41:47pm

re: #24 sliv_the_eli

And yet, despite the differences in English, all agree that self-defense is not prohibited.

30 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 12:42:20pm

re: #21 Bob Levin

Mistranslations have a strange way of perpetuating. It's why many people still think Jews have horns.

31 Bob Levin  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 12:44:56pm

re: #30 sliv_the_eli

And that's where knowing the difference between a window and mirror comes in handy. Unfortunately, this is not an easily mastered skill.

32 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 12:57:23pm

re: #23 Obdicut

I really hope this action from Israel was necessary, and that this isn't just the new ultra-right coalition flexing their muscles and trying to look tough.

The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. There is much criticism within Israel, especially from residents of the south who have been in the line of fire for years, that the Likud-led government has not been tough enough. With the recent upsurge of missile fire, the action being taken is likely necessary from both a security and political perspective.

33 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 12:58:26pm

re: #29 Bob Levin

And yet, despite the differences in English, all agree that self-defense is not prohibited.

Not necessarily. A true pacifist, at least philosophically, does not believe in killing even for self-defense.

34 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 12:58:52pm

re: #32 sliv_the_eli

Maybe. What's the metric for success-- rocket attacks next week, or rocket attacks six months from now?

35 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 1:00:52pm

re: #27 Bob Levin

Agreed. But in the context of discussions regarding Israel defending itself, there are always those who will use this commandment to illustrate that even killing in self-defense is wrong. Hence, 768 rockets are little more than mosquito bites. Whereas a successful attempt to destroy Hamas leadership and destroy long range rocket depots is a Biblical violation.

I wholeheartedly agree. It is no accident that the mistranslation of the prohibition on murder is reflexively trotted out by the antisemites as soon as Israel acts to defend itself.

36 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 1:05:50pm

re: #35 sliv_the_eli

I wholeheartedly agree. It is no accident that the mistranslation of the prohibition on murder is reflexively trotted out by the antisemites as soon as Israel acts to defend itself.

It's still good to keep in mind that innocents will die, and they will die from the actions of Israelis. If nothing else, it is always a terrible thing that we ask soldiers to do, to kill. We can blame the Palestinians for fighting from inside a civilian environment, but in the end it is still true that Israeli response inevitably winds up with civilian casualties. It is not good to blithely dismiss their deaths, any more than it is to fetishize their deaths and use it against Israel.

37 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 1:05:51pm

re: #34 Obdicut

Maybe. What's the metric for success-- rocket attacks next week, or rocket attacks six months from now?

In a sane world, the metric for success would be no rockets, ever.

In an ideal world, where Israel is not held to a standard that no other country would be held to, the metric for success is like the definition of the end point of a parabola -- as close to zero for as long a period of time as possible.

In a practical world, the metric for success would be the same as the metric for success by a police force with respect to the murder rate -- you know it will happen occasionally despite the best efforts of all involved, and that those in charge will search for and punish the occasional perp when it happens.

Unfortunately, the world remains to too great a degree an antisemitic one, which means that there will be no success, only the elimination by Israel of some of its enemies' most destructive weapons before they can be used and a material reduction of the firing of missiles to the "merely sporadic".

38 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 1:09:17pm

re: #36 Obdicut

A point on which you and I are entirely in agreement. I take no joy and, with the possible exception of a few sociopaths, the vast majority of Israelis take no joy in the loss of innocent life even when military action is justified. Someday we hope for peace, so that no innocents will suffer on either "side".

39 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 1:10:47pm

re: #37 sliv_the_eli

In a sane world, the metric for success would be no rockets, ever.

In a sane world, there would be no rockets.

In an ideal world, where Israel is not held to a standard that no other country would be held to, the metric for success is like the definition of the end point of a parabola -- as close to zero for as long a period of time as possible.

Wait, your ideal world still has Israel and Palestine fighting?

In a practical world, the metric for success would be the same as the metric for success by a police force with respect to the murder rate -- you know it will happen occasionally despite the best efforts of all involved, and that those in charge will search for and punish the occasional perp when it happens.

Comparing this to a police action is very dumb. Military actions cause plenty of civilian casualties. This is basically a non-response otherwise-- it's saying there isn't a metric for success, it'll just happen and every once in awhile Israel will bomb them back.

In an ideal world, where Israel is not held to a standard that no other country would be held to, the metric for success is like the definition of the end point of a parabola -- as close to zero for as long a period of time as possible.

In a practical world, the metric for success would be the same as the metric for success by a police force with respect to the murder rate -- you know it will happen occasionally despite the best efforts of all involved, and that those in charge will search for and punish the occasional perp when it happens.

Unfortunately, the world remains to too great a degree an antisemitic one, which means that there will be no success, only the elimination by Israel of some of its enemies' most destructive weapons before they can be used and a material reduction of the firing of missiles to the "merely sporadic".

And does this particular military action place the final goal of reducing antisemitism farther away or closer?

We aren't any closer. That isn't Israel's fault, since the Arab world uses the Palestinians as their proxy, inflame the situation, and Hamas tends to kill those who would be conciliatory with Israel, but Israel still needs to believe in a future of peaceful coexistence. I really feel that a lot of those on the Israeli right have truly given up on that-- and it is not an option, to give up.

40 Bob Levin  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 1:28:53pm

re: #33 sliv_the_eli

You could make a case citing the Torah and commentary for a position of true-pacifism? That wouldn't be easy, especially when coming across the passages about the Kohen in charge of war.

I have to run, and I'm still writing hastily.

re: #39 Obdicut

I really feel that a lot of those on the Israeli right have truly given up on that-- and it is not an option, to give up.

If they are religious, they can't give up on it because they pray for it three times a day.

41 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 1:41:37pm

re: #39 Obdicut

Wait, your ideal world still has Israel and Palestine fighting?

Point well taken. Clearly, the ideal has no fighting. I should have defined my first "world" as "ideal" and the second as "sane".

Comparing this to a police action is very dumb. Military actions cause plenty of civilian casualties. This is basically a non-response otherwise-- it's saying there isn't a metric for success, it'll just happen and every once in awhile Israel will bomb them back.

Unfortunately, history suggests there is no metric for the type of success that any sane person would use, which is zero rockets and zero need for response. The reality has been and is likely to be in the future merely reducing the violence to a level that the society can live with. Hence the analogy to how a police force views the murder rate. The ideal is for zero, but the reality is that the number is likely to be above zero and the best you can do is apply your resources to combat it as best you can.

And does this particular military action place the final goal of reducing antisemitism farther away or closer?

It is not part of the calculus. Israel's government has a duty to its population, Jewish and non-Jewish alike, to protect them from those in the Gaza Strip and elsewhere who would kill them.

As for its effect on antisemitism, antisemitism existed long before the State of Israel won its independence. It existed and, if we are being honest rather than merely hopeful, will likely continue to exist regardless of whether Israel defends itself. Nobody becomes an antisemite merely because Israel defends itself. A person becomes an antisemite because he or she has been educated to antisemitism and has internalized the lies about Jews, generally, and about Israel, in its capacity as a proxy for Jews in the antisemitic discourse (hence my occasional use in this forum of the term "Jew Among Nations" to refer to Israel).

We aren't any closer. That isn't Israel's fault, since the Arab world uses the Palestinians as their proxy, inflame the situation, and Hamas tends to kill those who would be conciliatory with Israel,

Not just Hamas.

but Israel still needs to believe in a future of peaceful coexistence. I really feel that a lot of those on the Israeli right have truly given up on that-- and it is not an option, to give up.

There are certainly many on the Israeli right who have given up on the hope of it happening in the present. But that is true across the broad spectrum of Israeli politics, largely as a result of the thousands of missiles that the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip.

That said, with the exception of the far right, even most on the Israeli right would like nothing more than truly peaceful co-existence. They just do not see it happening under the current "leadership" of the Palestinians.

42 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 1:56:51pm

re: #41 sliv_the_eli

How can Israel work to reduce the antisemitism in the Arab & Muslim world?

Do you think having Avigdor Lieberman and his disgusting cohorts as leadership of Israel helps to diminish antisemitism abroad, or does it give excuses to antisemites to point out the contemptible things that he and his ilk have said and smear Israel with them?

43 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 1:57:59pm

And in case it's not goddamn obviously, I'm not saying that it's Israel's obligation to reduce antisemitism, or that it causes antisemitism, I'm saying that reducing antisemitism is good for Israel.

44 researchok  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 2:00:52pm

re: #7 War On Music

Yeah, we should have stayed out of Germany because not everyone was a Nazi.

Yeah, that makes sense. Brilliant analysis.

45 researchok  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 2:05:39pm

re: #11 War On Music

So, both the current Israel government and the Hamas government reject each others right to exist. My question is, which body has the actual power to make non-existence a reality?

No the question is which body consistently calls for genocide? Which body routinely proves those calls are not merely rhetoric? Which body has state sponsored racism, bigotry and hate in media and school curriculum?

Shall I go on?

46 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 2:11:04pm

re: #42 Obdicut

If I had the answer to the first question, I wouldn't be here. I'd be in PM Netanyahu's office giving him the benefit of such wisdom.

On a more serious note, though, I think Israel should do exactly what it has done for most of its existence. Among these are:

1. Continue to do all that is reasonably possible to improve its democratic values. Maintain a free press. Continue to allow freedom of religion. Continue to build a society that promotes life and freedom.

2. Defend itself against its enemies, while implementing tactics that will minimize to the extent reasonably possible, even though it cannot eliminate completely, injury to non-combatants. Take care that military actions are taken when necessary and not merely when convenient.

With respect to the issue of FM Lieberman, that unfortunately is a function of Israel's far-from-perfect form of parliamentary democracy. From its inception, Israel's would-be prime ministers, whether of the center-left or center-right, have virtually had to ally with and give prominent positions in their cabinet to the leaders of parties further to the right or left. In the early years, those parties tended to be the religious parties, such as the National Religious Party or Agudat Yisrael. In more recent years, the religious parties have been replaced by the nationalist Ha'Bayit Ha-Yehudi as kingmaker. It is not ideal, especially in this case, but it is the reality of the country's electoral system.

Incidentally, the one sure way to reduce the attractiiveness of Lieberman and his party to the electorate in Israel would be for the Arabs to make true peace with Israel. Lieberman's popularity should that ever happen would collapse quicker than a house of cards in a hurricane.

47 researchok  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 2:15:46pm

re: #15 Vicious Babushka

Aren't killings (of any kind) permitted in times of conflict or self defense, even preemptively?

Given the well documented stated intent of Hamas as it relates to Israel and Jews the killing of even innocents while understandably tragic is just another byproduct of their hate.

Hamas has made the decision to put Palestinian civilians in danger- and they exploit that without regard to those paying the price.

Hamas is outraged that Israelis have the temerity to fight back.

48 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 2:19:54pm

re: #47 researchok

Aren't killings (of any kind) permitted in times of conflict or self defense, even preemptively?

No, you can never indiscriminately kill.

49 researchok  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 2:25:06pm

re: #48 Vicious Babushka

I was under the impression killing in self defense is permissible

See this from the JPost

50 researchok  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 2:37:37pm

Also, I found this at JLaw

Excerpts:

...This approach solves another difficult problem according to Jewish law: the role of the "innocent" civilian in combat. Since the Jewish tradition accepts that civilians (and soldiers who are surrendering) are always entitled to flee from the scene of the battle, it would logically follow that all who remain voluntarily are classified as combatants, since the opportunity to leave is continuously present. Particularly in combination with Joshua's practice of sending letters of warning in advance of combat, this legal approach limits greatly the role of the doctrine of "innocent civilian" in the Jewish tradition. Essentially, the Jewish tradition feels that innocent civilians should do their very best to remove themselves from the battlefield and those who remain are not so innocent. If one voluntarily stays in a city that is under siege, one has the status of a combatant.50

...In sum, there clearly is a license to wage certain kinds of war and kill certain people in the Jewish tradition. However, in order to exercise this license, one must first seek peace; this peace must be sought prior to declaring war, prior to waging a battle, and prior to laying a siege. While war permits killing, it only permits the intentional killings of combatants. Innocent people must be given every opportunity to remove themselves from the field of combat.

Admittedly, I am not an expert on religious law so if I'm reading this incorrectly, please advise.

51 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 2:55:50pm

re: #47 researchok

Hamas is outraged that Israelis have the temerity to fight back.

Not only Hamas.

52 sliv_the_eli  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 3:03:13pm

re: #50 researchok

Also, I found this at JLaw

Excerpts:

Admittedly, I am not an expert on religious law so if I'm reading this incorrectly, please advise.

My understanding -- based upon years of yeshivah education, but with the caveat that I am not a rabbi, religious scholar or otherwise an expert on the subject -- is that the issue of non-combatants who remain after warning is not that they are deemed combatants who can be killed but, rather, that the soldier whose actions cause their deaths during combat operations which are aimed at combatants is not thereby guilty for their deaths. This is similar to the laws of war, under which a combatant is required to make reasonable efforts given the circumstances to avoid causing death or injury to non-combatants and is not guilty of violating the laws of war if, having undertaken such efforts (again, and this is a critical legal distinction that Israel's detractors often knowingly ignore, assuming such efforts are possible in the particular circumstances), non-combatants are nevertheless injured or killed.

53 researchok  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 3:07:57pm

re: #52 sliv_the_eli

I defer to your expertise.

TY

54 Buck  Wed, Nov 14, 2012 5:54:33pm

re: #11 War On Music

So, both the current Israel government and the Hamas government reject each others right to exist. My question is, which body has the actual power to make non-existence a reality?

By the way, the idea that the Israeli government rejects the Hamas right to exist is an outright lie. Not even an exaggeration. It is a lie plain and simple.

A large group here will argue that the Israeli government CREATED Hamas. An equally stupid lie.

Your statement, and any argument it tries to support, is false.

55 Flavia  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 8:32:07pm

re: #18 Bob Levin

The Ba'al HaTurim translates this as Thou Shall Not Kill. Aside from the literal meaning, there is an essense to the commandment, much closer to the Ba'al HaTurim's understanding.

This is news to me. I have never heard any Jewish publication ever say that it's "kill" & not "murder", since Judaism has the death penalty, however near-impossible it is to actually use it.

56 Flavia  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 8:37:04pm

re: #36 Obdicut

It's still good to keep in mind that innocents will die, and they will die from the actions of Israelis. If nothing else, it is always a terrible thing that we ask soldiers to do, to kill. We can blame the Palestinians for fighting from inside a civilian environment, but in the end it is still true that Israeli response inevitably winds up with civilian casualties.

This is why Israel does not retaliate the way any other country would, & is allowed to do. Israel, above all other nations AFAICS, is aware of these facts.

57 Bob Levin  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 12:20:23am

re: #55 Flavia

First, I was writing hastily--but I did go to those sources and the translation was 'kill'. If I was thinking before typing, I would have said that the word 'murder' doesn't apply in this situation since self-defense is clearly involved.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the translation change in future volumes.

58 Flavia  Sat, Nov 17, 2012 6:35:30pm

re: #57 Bob Levin

First, I was writing hastily--but I did go to those sources and the translation was 'kill'. If I was thinking before typing, I would have said that the word 'murder' doesn't apply in this situation since self-defense is clearly involved.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the translation change in future volumes.

& I did not read thoroughly enough ahead - once I realized others had discussed it with you, I went back to delete my comment - but, too late! Sorry!


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