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1 researchok  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 11:43:41am

Plus ca change...

2 philosophus invidius  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 1:15:14pm

Is it possible the second clip actually happened first?

3 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 6:39:41pm

Daniel, I hate to down-ding you, but this video is highly suspect, IMO. Here's why:

• There were plenty of real casualties.. I believe the last number I heard was 16 dead (I don't know how many injured).

• The fact that the video is being pushed by Arutz Sheva. They are far-right Kahane supporters.

• The reputation of HonestReporting—I'm referring here to the sneering presentation, their ties to The Clarion Fund (who are well known purveyors of Islamophobic films and on whose advisory board Frank Gaffney sits), and the fact that they showed two separate clips instead of one continuous one.

FYI, I searched in vain to find the original on the BBC's website. These closest thing I could find was this one. If it was a guy faking injury, why not provide a link to the entire original and point out the places in the timeline that make it clear?

4 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 6:49:51pm

re: #3 CuriousLurker

Well I'm sure glad I picked the one link that poses this suspicious video as a question....

5 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 6:51:57pm

re: #4 Daniel Ballard

Well I'm sure glad I picked the one link that poses this suspicious video as a question....

It's sort of like a, "So do you still beat your wife?" type of question. //

6 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 6:56:46pm

re: #5 CuriousLurker

True. Ahh these matters are so.. prickly. Undercurrents and assumptions. I should have emphasized the question rather than the conclusion.

Now I would not expect a long uncut video either way. People get snippets unaware of what might be asked later. They just push the record button on and off.

Since I did not dig deeper into the source, I have no objection to the dings. You point out things I should have dug up for myself.

7 Gus  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 6:59:37pm

re: #3 CuriousLurker

Daniel, I hate to down-ding you, but this video is highly suspect, IMO. Here's why:

• There were plenty of real casualties.. I believe the last number I heard was 16 dead (I don't know how many injured).

• The fact that the video is being pushed by Arutz Sheva. They are far-right Kahane supporters.

• The reputation of HonestReporting—I'm referring here to the sneering presentation, their ties to The Clarion Fund (who are well known purveyors of Islamophobic films and on whose advisory board Frank Gaffney sits), and the fact that they showed two separate clips instead of one continuous one.

FYI, I searched in vain to find the original on the BBC's website. These closest thing I could find was this one. If it was a guy faking injury, why not provide a link to the entire original and point out the places in the timeline that make it clear?

I down dinged it because even if it might be true I don't want to undermine the hardship. The suffering of the people.

8 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 7:01:24pm

re: #6 Daniel Ballard

Yeah, it's a prickly subject.

Otis was very upset about the ding, so I've neutralized it to spare his feelings. He sends his greetings to you & Mrs. RWC. ;)

9 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 7:03:44pm

re: #7 Gus

In the summer war there were fake shots and real casualties. Did pointing out the fake ones reduce anyones sympathy for real injured people then?

10 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 7:04:30pm

re: #7 Gus

I down dinged it because even if it might be true I don't want to undermine the hardship. The suffering of the people.

The children dying on both sides really gets to me. I've been avoiding the story because the photos of dead or injured babies & children and their anguished parents break my heart.

11 Gus  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 7:08:05pm

re: #10 CuriousLurker

The children dying on both sides really gets to me. I've been avoiding the story because the photos of dead or injured babies & children and their anguished parents break my heart.

Yes. And while I still believe in the use of force. I refuse to become a war apologist. I believe in self defense but not this route. There is also much drama. The Twitter feed from the IDFSpokesperson is uncalled for. It's like a PR event on the part of Israel.

12 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 7:08:39pm

After viewing this video several times, I think it is a stretch to claim it is "fake."

1. We are actually seeing two segments, not one continuous shot.
2. We can't tell if the man has been injured. He is being lifted in a very clumsy way by a crowd of people who do not appear to have any training as first responders.
3. The segments might be out of context, or reversed.
4. As he is being carried off, he is waving his arms like he is saying "Put me down! Put me down!"

13 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 7:12:13pm

re: #9 Daniel Ballard

In the summer war there were fake shots and real casualties. Did pointing out the fake ones reduce anyones sympathy for real injured people then?

I can't speak for Gus, but what made me twitch for the get-go was the presentation of both the Arutz Sheva article and the text added to the video. Both were fairly dripping with sneering contempt, and the use of "Pallywood" is specifically for faked/staged things.

14 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 7:14:30pm

re: #11 Gus

Yes. And while I still believe in the use of force. I refuse to become a war apologist. I believe in self defense but not this route. There is also much drama. The Twitter feed from the IDFSpokesperson is uncalled for. It's like a PR event on the part of Israel.

I thin I follow IDFSpokesperson on Twitter, but I rarely follow the links, so I can't speak to that aspect of it. It's such a frigging mess, so much suffering. I makes my head hurt. It makes my heart hurt.

15 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 7:17:07pm

re: #12 Vicious Babushka

After viewing this video several times, I think it is a stretch to claim it is "fake."

1. We are actually seeing two segments, not one continuous shot.
2. We can't tell if the man has been injured. He is being lifted in a very clumsy way by a crowd of people who do not appear to have any training as first responders.
3. The segments might be out of context, or reversed.
4. As he is being carried off, he is waving his arms like he is saying "Put me down! Put me down!"

Heh, yeah, they were kinda dragging him like a sack of potatoes. I didn't notice him waving his arms; I'll have to go back and watch again. It's entirely possible that he just got knocked down & stunned for a few seconds and people thought he was injured. I'm still trying to figure out why he wasn't wearing shoes...

16 Political Atheist  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 7:25:08pm

re: #13 CuriousLurker

My highest personal sympathy is with all those caught in the two middles. The two middles of course are the civilians on each side of the border. That's two middles that just want to be neighbors.

We will see photography both real and faked. Propagandized and not so much. I can only hope to properly discern the difference moving forward. Oh and tell Otis I owe him one. :-)

17 CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 2:04:47pm

Hmmm...user alinuxguru down-dings my #3, presumably because s/he disagrees with me, then proceeds to up-ding Alouette's #12, which agrees with my #3.

It seems that something beyond simple disagreement might be at play here.


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 Frank says:

You can tell what they think of our music by the places we are forced to play it in. This looks like a good spot for a livestock show. -- April 1968, Chicago, Mothers of Invention open for Cream