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1 Buck  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:16:58pm

Stockholm syndrome

2 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 5:30:30pm

Good article. Violence begets more violence and more extremism. Hamas are quite happy to sacrifice Palestinians and Israelis for the fake dream of Israel's overthrow, those in power in Israel seem content to feed the extremists by providing them with more martyrs, which is exactly what the extremists want.

Whatever the justifications for individual military responses to rocket attacks, this situation will not be solved with violence which results in the deaths of civilians, it just breathes more life into it.

3 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 6:03:41pm

re: #2 Ayeless in Ghazi

Doesn't matter. Hamas will not negotiate in good faith and will not accept Israel's existence. That means flare-ups like this are not avoidable. It's not Israel that's causing the problem, it's Hamas and the violence will stop on the same day Hamas stops firing the rockets.

4 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 6:42:26pm

This article is for the upcoming election. The writer would take the opposite stance if the Labor Party were in power.

The amount of missions being flown over Gaza, many successful missions, are targeting weapons caches, launching sites. If someone is pointing a gun at me, yes please, take away the gun.

If by the end of this operation, there are very few rockets in Gaza, that's fine, the result will be less violence. What actually leads to more violence is Hamas choosing violence. If Hamas chooses to re-arm, that is a choice. If they choose to provide infrastructure and a good education for the residents, that is another choice--which will lead to peace.

5 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 6:53:52pm

re: #4 Bob Levin

This article is for the upcoming election. The writer would take the opposite stance if the Labor Party were in power.

The amount of missions being flown over Gaza, many successful missions, are targeting weapons caches, launching sites. If someone is pointing a gun at me, yes please, take away the gun.

If by the end of this operation, there are very few rockets in Gaza, that's fine, the result will be less violence. What actually leads to more violence is Hamas choosing violence. If Hamas chooses to re-arm, that is a choice. If they choose to provide infrastructure and a good education for the residents, that is another choice--which will lead to peace.

Quite Concur.

6 Destro  Thu, Nov 15, 2012 9:51:13pm

re: #2 Ayeless in Ghazi

While I can't condemn Israel for fighting back, the Likud ideology seems to get off on the idea of having perpetual enemies the way the GOP does and that diplomacy and negotiations are for wussies and that what should be happening is victor's terms dictated to the losers as the proper order of things.

7 Bob Levin  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 12:01:28am

In English, you are indeed condemning Israel for fighting back, and claiming that Likud is somehow imagining the 800 rockets shot into Israel in this year alone.

Israel has completely withdrawn from Gaza, it provides Gaza with electricity, it has program to actually help Gaza farmers get up and running--helping them to grow spices, enough to, with Israel's help, export to Europe. This takes cooperation. This program did not start under the Israeli Labor Party--so what is it you expect Israel to negotiate for, with whom?

If anyone wishes to send goods to Gaza, they can, through proper channels. And yet Hamas has managed to build up quite the arsenal or artillery, which they use everyday.

So, after this short episode, Hamas will have to start all over, with either guns or butter--their choice. This isn't up to Likud, or Labor, or any Israeli political party.

8 freetoken  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 1:33:23am

The Google directed link, to get behind the paywall:

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

9 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 1:39:35am

re: #2 Ayeless in Ghazi

Good article. Violence begets more violence and more extremism. Hamas are quite happy to sacrifice Palestinians and Israelis for the fake dream of Israel's overthrow, those in power in Israel seem content to feed the extremists by providing them with more martyrs, which is exactly what the extremists want.

Whatever the justifications for individual military responses to rocket attacks, this situation will not be solved with violence which results in the deaths of civilians, it just breathes more life into it.

Yeah, Israel should just ignore the rocket attacks on its civilians.
/

10 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 2:37:32am

re: #9 Eclectic Infidel

Yeah, Israel should just ignore the rocket attacks on its civilians.
/

Shut the fuck up idiot, that's not what I said.

11 Varek Raith  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 2:50:43am

Let's be real, this retaliation will do nothing to stop the rocket attacks.
This is a vicious, nevereding circle.

12 Bob Levin  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 4:30:56am

re: #11 Varek Raith

To be very real, no one thinks that this is a long-term solution. No one thinks this will lead to peace. But, if you destroy a vast arsenal of rockets, then for a time, there are no rockets. That's it.

And to be real, this isn't a cycle. It's a war. Sometimes, now for instance, it's a hot war. Other times it's a cold war. But only one side is inventing tech that will save the lives of civilians. The other side does nothing but target civilians. I don't see the moral complexity here.

13 Destro  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 6:40:31am

re: #10 Ayeless in Ghazi

re: #7 Bob Levin

In English, you are indeed condemning Israel for fighting back

So the people under a crushing blockade "are not fighting back" when they strike out at those blockading them?

But only one side is inventing tech that will save the lives of civilians. The other side does nothing but target civilians. I don't see the moral complexity here.

PS: More Palestinian civilians have been killed than Israeli civilians.

14 Varek Raith  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 7:22:06am

re: #12 Bob Levin

To be very real, no one thinks that this is a long-term solution. No one thinks this will lead to peace. But, if you destroy a vast arsenal of rockets, then for a time, there are no rockets. That's it.

And to be real, this isn't a cycle. It's a war. Sometimes, now for instance, it's a hot war. Other times it's a cold war. But only one side is inventing tech that will save the lives of civilians. The other side does nothing but target civilians. I don't see the moral complexity here.

Still doesn't change the fact that this won't stop the rocket attacks.
And I spoke nothing of morality in my post. I stated a simple fact.
Please don't pull that bullshit.

15 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 8:49:24am

re: #14 Varek Raith

Still doesn't change the fact that this won't stop the rocket attacks.

Grassroots driven links between the two communities building on trust and common interests, uniting against and isolating the haters on both sides, (many of the loudest of* whom don't even live in the targeted areas) seems to me to be the only the only realistic way out of this cycle. This was a major factor towards the peace process in Northern Ireland - it has worked before in situations people once deemed irretrievable and it can work again.

*Sorry about the double genitive there, couldn't find a way to avoid it ;-)

16 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 9:03:19am

Are we busy pretending that haaretz is an antisemitic site?

17 Gus  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 9:57:59am

Damn. -4 for this page?

Rating: -4
Total: 12

Plus: 4
Destro (Destro), Gus (Gus 802), BARACK THE VOTE (iceweasel), Ayeless in Ghazi (Jimmah)

Minus: 8
alinuxguru, Bob Levin, Dark_Falcon, Eclectic Infidel (eclectic infidel), jogiff, Rochi613, Skandal, sliv_the_eli

18 Buck  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 9:58:14am

re: #13 Destro

More Palestinian civilians have been killed than Israeli civilians.

You seem to want to talk about numbers.

Number of attacks intentionally targeting civilians without a military connection anywhere around:

Hamas: Thousands
Israel: Probably? Very, very, very few. And those are being rightly investigated.

Number of its own innocent civilians endangered by its choice of where to store ammunition and behind whom to hide and from where to fire missiles at civilians on the other side:

Hamas: 1.5 million or so (i.e. the population of Gaza)
Israel: Zero.

Number of civilians on the other side to which it has provided aid, power, food, and other humanitarian relief even while its own civilians are being targeted in terrorist attacks:

Hamas: Zero.
Israel: 1.5 million or so.

19 Gus  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 10:00:05am

Welcome to the Glenn Beck show.

20 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 10:00:55am

re: #17 Gus

Damn. -4 for this page?

Rating: -4
Total: 12

Some people don't like being interrupted in the middle of a WARGASM.

21 Gus  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 10:02:10am

re: #20 Ayeless in Ghazi

Some people don't like being interrupted in the middle of a WARGASM.

I wonder if they're getting a tingle up their leg.

22 Buck  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 10:07:30am

re: #15 Ayeless in Ghazi

Grassroots driven links between the two communities building on trust and common interests, uniting against and isolating the haters on both sides, (many of the loudest of* whom don't even live in the targeted areas) seems to me to be the only the only realistic way out of this cycle. This was a major factor towards the peace process in Northern Ireland - it has worked before in situations people once deemed irretrievable and it can work again.

*Sorry about the double genitive there, couldn't find a way to avoid it ;-)

Great plan. AND what about the people who are being mortared and rocketed in the meanwhile? What about them? While you work towards this grassroot effort, what will you say to the Israelis that have to put their lives on hold, running to bomb shelters experiencing that kind of fear every day?

Rockets and missiles and mortars are still raining down. Right now.

Surely a person like you, with such capacity for empathy, especially for children in danger, couldn't remain silent on Jews being targeted every day while this isolating the haters on both sides takes place.

Sorry for the dripping sarcasm, I couldn't avoid it. Smiley face....

23 BARACK THE VOTE  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 10:12:27am

re: #22 Buck

Downding warranted purely for your nasty attitude.

24 Gus  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 10:17:37am
25 Buck  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 10:17:54am

Northern Ireland was a democracy, with secret ballot, opposition parties and freedom of the press.

All lacking in Gaza. There is no way to reach out to communities in Gaza and expect any kind of trust building when they have no power or influence. The communities in Gaza are living under a dictatorship and have none of the freedoms that might allow them to influence their political situation.

26 Buck  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 10:19:29am

re: #23 BARACK THE VOTE

Downding warranted purely for your nasty attitude.

I guess I should have added a winky face to the smiley face...

hugs and kisses?

27 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 10:23:55am

re: #22 Buck

Great plan. AND what about the people who are being mortared and rocketed in the meanwhile? What about them?

Yeah because the current stategy is working so well isn't it? What are you going to say to those Israelis who are being mortared and rocketed that your way offers no realistic escape from?

Trust us, the God of Strength will somehow win some day, instead of just guaranteeing more of the same?

Surely a person like you, with such capacity for empathy, especially for children in danger, couldn't remain silent on Jews being targeted every day while this isolating the haters on both sides takes place.

I am not talking about being nice to the terrorist leadership I am talking about avoiding civiilians deaths - which ought to be seen as unacceptable - while doing as much as possible to foster links between these divided communities.

28 Gus  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 10:27:46am
29 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 10:30:50am

re: #25 Buck

Northern Ireland was a democracy, with secret ballot, opposition parties and freedom of the press.

All lacking in Gaza. There is no way to reach out to communities in Gaza and expect any kind of trust building when they have no power or influence. The communities in Gaza are living under a dictatorship and have none of the freedoms that might allow them to influence their political situation.

They used to say that peace was impossible there too, for all kinds of reasons. Also in Northern Ireland - it was ONLY the terrorists who were blowing shit up. The kind of action that can result in large numbers of civilian deaths was seen as unacceptable and was avoided. This would seem to me to be a necessary prerequisite for any prospects for a grassroots driven cross community peace process.

30 Buck  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 11:04:11am

re: #29 Ayeless in Ghazi

They used to say that peace was impossible there too, for all kinds of reasons. Also in Northern Ireland - it was ONLY the terrorists who were blowing shit up. The kind of action that can result in large numbers of civilian deaths was seen as unacceptable and was avoided. This would seem to me to be a necessary prerequisite for any prospects for a grassroots driven cross community peace process.

I am sure you don't think that the police and army in Northern Ireland didn't use force when stopping the terrorists bombing and killing.

31 Buck  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 11:10:59am

re: #27 Ayeless in Ghazi

Yeah because the current stategy is working so well isn't it? What are you going to say to those Israelis who are being mortared and rocketed that your way offers no realistic escape from?

The only problem with the current strategy is stopping before it is finished.

The international community has for decades stopped Israel from ending the hostilities in the only way to actually end wars. Always pressuring Israel to cease fire before the other side is forced to surrender.

I hope this time Israel will ignore that pressure and finish Hamas off. Kill the leaders if they have to, capture and bring to trial any that they can.

Any captured Hamas leader could be brought to justice for War crimes and crimes against humanity.

32 Destro  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 12:06:43pm

re: #18 Buck

You seem to want to talk about numbers.

Yes. More Palestinians are killed than Israelis - in lopsided not even close numbers.

Kind of de-victimizes the victimization propaganda angle somewhat.....

And Gazans react as I would expect a blockaded people to react. Why is it a surprise to you or anyone?

33 Destro  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 12:10:30pm

re: #29 Ayeless in Ghazi

re: #25 Buck

Buck brings up Northern Ireland.....gee, I wonder if that terrorism by the IRA happened because the Irish are evil or maybe terrorism was a result of , oh I don't know, fucked up shit the English did to them......

34 Destro  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 12:11:44pm

re: #30 Buck

I am sure you don't think that the police and army in Northern Ireland didn't use force when stopping the terrorists bombing and killing.

When the English were not shooting down Irish civilians in the streets.....

35 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 12:18:49pm

re: #23 BARACK THE VOTE

Downding warranted purely for your nasty attitude.

Ditto. I agree with Buck on this issue, but he was being an ass.

36 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 12:21:22pm

re: #31 Buck

The only problem with the current strategy is stopping before it is finished.

The international community has for decades stopped Israel from ending the hostilities in the only way to actually end wars. Always pressuring Israel to cease fire before the other side is forced to surrender.

I hope this time Israel will ignore that pressure and finish Hamas off. Kill the leaders if they have to, capture and bring to trial any that they can.

Any captured Hamas leader could be brought to justice for War crimes and crimes against humanity.

The problem, Buck, is that any such trial will stoke Arab rage, and will be depicted in much of Europe as "victor's justice". It might well stir up more than it solved.

37 Bob Levin  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 12:42:16pm

re: #14 Varek Raith

This was my mistake, I didn't mean to attribute that statement to you. However, there are a few threads on this topic, and there seems to be some doubt about whether Israel should act or sit still while another group shoots nearly 1000 rockets at them. Israel's initial response was to invent Irondome, which didn't happen overnight. It would have been so much easier just to do what so many other nations have done--begin to annihilate the Gazans. But that didn't happen, and it's not happening now.

No one in saying that Ha'aretz is antisemitic. I think most of us are saying that the essay was taken completely out of context, and the meaning was slightly twisted. As I said, if the Labor Party was in power, the opinion piece would have taken the opposing side. Ha'aretz does not support the murder of Israeli civilians, or even the attempted murder. If it did, that would make it antisemitic.

If it were possible to interview the author of the opinion piece and ask, do you support destroying the Hamas arsenal, I suspect he would think that would be a good idea. Unfortunately, this is what that looks like. Hamas began firing rockets at Israel from the moment Israel evacuated Gaza, and did so continuously until there was a blockade. Then they accumulated weapons from tunnels in the Sinai. Hamas hasn't done anything about infrastructure, education, anything at all to help the residents of Gaza. They even rely on Israel for their electricity. You'd think that they would have at least built a power plant. Not even that.

If you are looking for who is oppressing the people of Gaza, look to those firing rockets, look to those who are buying rockets, who won't even allow a civil economy to grow. It's not Israel. And these same people justify their tyrannical behavior by attempting to kill Israelis, and sometimes succeeding.

38 Bob Levin  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 12:58:06pm

re: #15 Ayeless in Ghazi

Again, I'm sorry to combine the responses to various comments into one thread, but I find it's the simplest way to do pull loose ends together and try to keep things coherent.

Grassroots driven links between the two communities building on trust and common interests, uniting against and isolating the haters on both sides, (many of the loudest of* whom don't even live in the targeted areas) seems to me to be the only the only realistic way out of this cycle.

This is true. And it began to happen before Israel evacuated Gaza. Israelis and Americans bought some very sophisticated greenhouses that produced any number of items, exportable items. They tried to built a civil Gaza economy before Israel left. The first thing Hamas did was to destroy the greenhouses--and use that ground for launching sites. They began to dig tunnels as weapons highways. That was their choice. No economy, just smuggling.

But that didn't stop the grassroots efforts. Israel has worked with those representing Gaza farmers, teaching them how to grow spices, securing them contracts to export to Europe. The first shipment occurred around time of the Estelle incident. I hope it works and lasts.

In the meantime, there is the issue of rockets. Israel is targeting ammo depots. They have run over 350 successful operations, meaning that Hamas has a large arsenal. These operations have been occurring while Hamas is increasing their attacks--the missile total is now well over 1000 for this year alone. Irondome is running constantly. If there were no Irondome, there would be more Israeli casualties--for some, this statistic, the number of Israeli dead, has some meaning.

My present position is that this conflict is in no way analogous to the situation in Northern Ireland. If you can make a stronger case that Gaza is analogous, go ahead.

39 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 2:00:47pm

re: #33 Destro

re: #25 Buck

Buck brings up Northern Ireland.....gee, I wonder if that terrorism by the IRA happened because the Irish are evil or maybe terrorism was a result of , oh I don't know, fucked up shit the English did to them......

The thing is Destro, that the IRA had a relatively defined grievance and did not seek their enemies annihilation. The IRA thought its political wing should run Belfast (in Northern Ireland), but did not lay claim to Bristol (in England). Hamas claims all territory of the former British Mandate west of the Jordan river as its state of 'Palestine' and allows no place at all for Jews in Palestine, nor any place for Christians except as dhimnis. As a result, there can be no Good Friday Accords, because unlike the IRA Hamas refuses to accept that its foe has the right to exist.

40 Destro  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 8:52:31pm
The thing is Destro, that the IRA had a relatively defined grievance and did not seek their enemies annihilation.

Almost the exact same agenda, the throwing off of English Protestant settler rule over the native Catholic Irish, as the IRA saw it.

I don't know why you needed to explain Hamas to me like I would not know what they are and what they represent? Have you or I not had discussions where I am being skeptical of the rise of Islamists in the Arab spring?

I am just offering an explanation of why people who are weak and aggreaved (and the Palestinians in this case are the weak ones here in a fight with Israel) resort to extremism and asymetrical warfare.

The Russian revolutionary left when it was fighting the Czarist autocracy had a phrase which has become the operating philiosphy of pretty much every guerilla movement "the worse the better", and that is what Hamas is doing. The worst thing that can happen to repressive regimes like North Korea, Iran, Hamas is for things to get better.

China's Communist Party is now more under threat than anytime since Chiang Kai-Shek all because Chinese are finding freedom through prosperity.

The notion that Israel will destroy Hamas in some sort of military attack is nonsense. It is what Hamas wants. Israel would have been better off fight Hamas by opening up the embargo and getting all those unemployed young men used as cannon fodder by Hamas a job catering to vactationing Europeans.

I swear, Europeans will vacation anywhere, even war zones. Yemen, off the coast of Somalia, you name it. I bet that would do more to end rocket attacks on Israel than what Netanyahu's kooks can think up.

41 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Nov 16, 2012 9:11:26pm

re: #10 Ayeless in Ghazi

Shut the fuck up idiot, that's not what I said.

Yes it is.

42 Buck  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 9:58:46am

re: #32 Destro

Yes. More Palestinians are killed than Israelis - in lopsided not even close numbers.

Your misconception is that in the current war between Hamas and Israel, culpability is to be determined by simply comparing the amount of deaths and casualties on each side, and then reaching a verdict.
Israel must be the guilty party, goes your logic, because the numbers are so much higher on the Hamas side.

Yet where does one find in international law, in state practice, or in common sense, a rule, precedent or rationale to support this proposition?

The answer: Nowhere.

The proportionality obligation under international law is completely different. It requires that a military operation be directed at a legitimate military objective, and that expected collateral damage not be excessive in relation to the anticipated military objective.

And Gazans react as I would expect a blockaded people to react. Why is it a surprise to you or anyone?

The blockade is about stopping weapons from coming into Gaza. The idea that Israel should stop trying to limit the weapons from coming into Gaza, and that will stop Hamas from using these same weapons is ridiculous.

Buck brings up Northern Ireland.

Actually I didn't bring up Northern Ireland. I responded to #15 Ayeless in Ghazi bringing it up.

43 Buck  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 10:26:36am
And Gazans react as I would expect a blockaded people to react. Why is it a surprise to you or anyone?

And Israelis react as I would expect a people being shot at with rockets, mortars and missiles to react. Why is it a surprise to you or anyone?

44 Destro  Sun, Nov 18, 2012 7:44:51pm

re: #42 Buck

Your misconception is that in the current war between Hamas and Israel......

Your misconception is that this is my misconception.


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