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1 researchok  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 4:21:27pm

You are such a provocateur.

Good catch.

2 Destro  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:39:32pm

Clause 3 of the Atlantic Charter reads: Third, they respect the right of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they will live; and they wish to see sovereign rights and self government restored to those who have been forcibly deprived of them then became one of the eight cardinal principal points of the Charter all people had a right to self-determination.

United Nations General Assembly Resolution 1514:
Conscious of the need for the creation of conditions of stability and well-being and peaceful and friendly relations based on respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of all peoples, and of universal respect for, and observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language or religion,

Recognizing the passionate yearning for freedom in all dependent peoples and the decisive role of such peoples in the attainment of their independence.

3 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 5:46:25pm

I don't have any problem with what Scheuer said there, but he could have done better here...

But Scheuer seemed to go off script again, warning that Iran was not necessarily responsible for actions Hamas took against Israel.

“Hamas has alienated themselves from the Iranians, they’ve moved out of Syria,” the former CIA analyst explained. “Hamas would have always much preferred to have worked with Sunni people rather than Shia. And now they have those people to work with, plus they have all the arms they want coming out of Libya and Tunisia after the Arab spring. Their reliance on the Iranians is much less than it used to be.”

He might have mentioned that Islamic Jihad is now the direct arm of Iran in Gaza and the West Bank. Without mentioning that what he said makes it sound like Iran has lost all influence with the Palestinians which isn't really true. A nitpick maybe but a valid one.

But wait...

The author of the article at RS, David Edwards, then just slips this little paragraph in at the end of the article...

For years, Israel has contended that one of the largest obstacles preventing peace is that Hamas has refused to recognize Israel’s “right to exist.” During 1988 negotiations, then-Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat first recognized Israel’s “right to exist in peace and security for all.”

WTF is that? What does Yasser Arafat have to do with Hamas? This paragraph is an intentional conflation of two completely separate issues that makes it sound as if Hamas has recognized Israels right to exist when it most definitely has not!

4 lostlakehiker  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:53:50pm

What is a right?

It's nothing tangible. Its tangible traces in the physical world are patterns of thinking in other people. If people generally hold that you "have a right", that's something real in the real world. You'll probably be allowed to do what you "have a right" to do.

Another sort of tangible trace of "having a right" is that the people who say "I (or we) have a right" are likely to vigorously insist on going ahead with whatever it is they have a right to do or to be, even if others don't like it. Even if it comes to fighting. And they're signaling determination.

What Scheuer is saying, when you strip it down to its basics, is that if somebody somewhere can destroy Israel, he won't fight to stop it.

For my own part, I don't hold that there is an inarguable right for any self-declared group to set itself up as a nation-state. The Confederacy did not have a right to exist, for instance. Nor did Vichy France. Grey areas---did Estonia have a right to exist? Not really. The Soviet Union had the means to stop them, and nobody was going to fight over it. Only when Soviet Union/Russia decided it didn't matter to them did they relax and inform Estonia that they were welcome to go their own way.

Long established nations, especially nations that are not empires incorporating subject peoples, tend in my view to "have a right to exist". I won't go join their wars, but I will speak up for them and vote in favor of U.S. policies that work toward their continued existence. Even if that means fighting, e.g. to prevent Saddam's Iraq from annexing Kuwait as a province. In that sense, I hold that Israel has a right to exist.

5 researchok  Mon, Nov 19, 2012 11:48:47pm

re: #2 Destro



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