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1 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 9:02:00am

Fucking piece of shit article blames everything on Israel and tries to argument Hamas was abiding by a truce even while rockets were being fired. It blames Hamas for nothing, not even once mentioning the deliberate attacks on civilians that are the stock in trade of Hamas.

This article consists of nothing but lies and Damned Lies. CNN was wrong to let it run, and Destro, you should not have posted it uncritically as you have done.

2 Destro  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 9:04:53am

re: #1 Dark_Falcon

not even once mentioning the deliberate attacks on civilians that are the stock in trade of Hamas.

Israel has killed more Palestinian civilians than Hamas has killed Israeli civilians and soldiers combined.

3 Buck  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 9:05:44am

1000 rockets per year over 10 years. That is three a day.

The cease-fire required both parties to refrain from violent action against the other. Hamas had to cease its rocket assaults and prevent the firing of rockets by other groups such as Islamic Jihad... and Israel had to put a stop to its targeted assassinations and military incursions.

The rockets and mortar fire continued. Human rights groups looked the other way. The UN looked the other way. The red cross looked the other way. The United States government looked the other way.

4 Buck  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 9:07:45am

re: #2 Destro

not even once mentioning the deliberate attacks on civilians that are the stock in trade of Hamas.

Israel has killed more Palestinian civilians than Hamas has killed Israeli civilians and soldiers combined.

Your misconception is that in the current war between Hamas and Israel, culpability is to be determined by simply comparing the amount of deaths and casualties on each side, and then reaching a verdict.
Israel must be the guilty party, goes your logic, because the numbers are so much higher on the Hamas side.

Yet where does one find in international law, in state practice, or in common sense, a rule, precedent or rationale to support this proposition?

The answer: Nowhere.

5 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 9:56:02am

re: #2 Destro

not even once mentioning the deliberate attacks on civilians that are the stock in trade of Hamas.

Israel has killed more Palestinian civilians than Hamas has killed Israeli civilians and soldiers combined.

It's not about the numbers, Destro, the question is intent. Israel loses fewer people despite having more fewer offensive munitions fired at it than it fires due to Israel's capitalist economy, advanced education, and commitment to protecting its citizens. Israel builds bomb shelters on its playgrounds to ensure its children can take shelter, Hamas builds houses over tunnels used to smuggle munitions. The greater casualties suffered by Gazans are testimony only to the callousness and fanaticism of Hamas.

6 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 10:10:49am

re: #2 Destro

not even once mentioning the deliberate attacks on civilians that are the stock in trade of Hamas.

Israel has killed more Palestinian civilians than Hamas has killed Israeli civilians and soldiers combined.

Hamas tends to fire rockets from civilian areas precisely because they don't give a shit about Palestinian civilian casualties.

Have you noticed that?

7 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 10:11:19am

re: #3 Buck

In what way did the US government 'look the other way' Buck? That's an amazing allegation.

8 sattv4u2  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 10:17:25am

Let’s be clear: Israel’s latest operation in Gaza is not about security.

Sorry Nadia, but you don't speak for the Israeli gov't, so how can you decide what it's "about"

Cease-fires between Hamas-ruled Gaza and Israel have brought security for months on end ,,,


if by "security for months on end" you mean one side stops and the other goes back to the number of rockets it was lobbing into Israel on a daily basis, why yes, it does bring "security for months on end" (followed by a large does of ///)

9 sattv4u2  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 10:21:06am

DESTRO

In other words, during these 'cease fires", is either side shelling the other, and if so, which one?

10 Buck  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 10:36:43am

re: #7 Obdicut

In what way did the US government 'look the other way' Buck? That's an amazing allegation.

If you think the cease fire held, and therefore ignored the rockets being fired at Israel, then you are looking the other way.

11 sattv4u2  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 10:38:54am

re: #10 Buck

ummm,,, errrr,, whats wif the #8 and 9 downers!?!?!?

12 Buck  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 10:41:45am

Sorry, mobile and fat fingers. fixed

13 sattv4u2  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 10:43:22am

re: #12 Buck

Sorry, mobile and fat fingers. fixed

A likely excuse !!
/

14 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 11:12:11am

re: #10 Buck

If you think the cease fire held, and therefore ignored the rockets being fired at Israel, then you are looking the other way.

Who thinks that, Buck?

15 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 11:57:15am
16 Destro  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 11:58:51am

re: #9 sattv4u2

DESTRO

In other words, during these 'cease fires", is either side shelling the other, and if so, which one?

You mean the Israelis did not order a hit at a Hamas official that started all this?

17 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 12:00:23pm

re: #15 Destro

Israelis don't seem to give a shit about Palestinian civilian casualties either.

Can you back that allegation up in the least, Destro?

18 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 12:02:17pm

If Israelis did not give a shit about Palestinian civilian casualties, there would be tens of thousands of Palestinian casualties.

19 Destro  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 12:15:26pm

re: #17 Obdicut

Can you back that allegation up in the least, Destro?

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

An Israeli missile ripped through a two-story home in a residential area of Gaza City on Sunday, killing at least 11 civilians, including four young children and an 81-year-old woman, in the single deadliest attack of Israel's offensive against Islamic militants.

A similar scene unfolded elsewhere in the city early Monday, when an airstrike leveled two houses belonging to a single family, killing two children and two adults and injuring 42 people, including children, said Gaza heath official Ashraf al-Kidra. Rescue workers were frantically searching for 12 to 15 members of the Azzam family under the rubble.

[Link: www.hrw.org...]

This report documents seven incidents where Israeli soldiers fired on civilians with small arms during Israel’s major military operations in Gaza in December 2008 and January 2009. These attacks killed 11 civilians—including five women and four children—and wounded at least another eight.

These casualties comprise a small fraction of the Palestinian civilians killed and wounded during what Israel called Operation Cast Lead, but they stand out because of the circumstances of the attacks. In each case, the victims were standing, walking, or in a slowly moving vehicle with other unarmed civilians who were trying to convey their non-combatant status by waving a white flag. All available evidence indicates that Israeli forces had control of the areas in question, no fighting was taking place there at the time, and Palestinian fighters were not hiding among the civilians who were shot. Whether waving a white flag or not, these people were civilians not taking an active part in hostilities, and therefore should not have been attacked, according to international humanitarian law (the laws of war).

20 Destro  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 12:17:47pm

re: #18 Vicious Babushka

If Israelis did not give a shit about Palestinian civilian casualties, there would be tens of thousands of Palestinian casualties.

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

Ariel Sharon's son Gilad calls on Israel to 'flatten Gaza'

[Link: www.hrw.org...]

This report documents seven incidents where Israeli soldiers fired on civilians with small arms during Israel’s major military operations in Gaza in December 2008 and January 2009. These attacks killed 11 civilians—including five women and four children—and wounded at least another eight.

These casualties comprise a small fraction of the Palestinian civilians killed and wounded during what Israel called Operation Cast Lead, but they stand out because of the circumstances of the attacks. In each case, the victims were standing, walking, or in a slowly moving vehicle with other unarmed civilians who were trying to convey their non-combatant status by waving a white flag. All available evidence indicates that Israeli forces had control of the areas in question, no fighting was taking place there at the time, and Palestinian fighters were not hiding among the civilians who were shot. Whether waving a white flag or not, these people were civilians not taking an active part in hostilities, and therefore should not have been attacked, according to international humanitarian law (the laws of war).

21 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 12:24:17pm

re: #19 Destro

How does that show Israel not giving a shit about Palestinian civilians? At most, it shows that in those specific cases, war crimes were committed by Israeli soldiers. Why do you extrapolate that to 'Israel'?

If Israel actually didn't care about Palestinian civilian casualties, they wouldn't use (expensive) precision weaponry to attack Hamas.

You're developing a weird case of group blame.

22 Destro  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 1:44:32pm

re: #21 Obdicut

I used Israel but its really the Likudniks running Israel.

23 Bob Levin  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 1:45:08pm

First, Destro has always had a weird case of group blame, that even extends beyond Israelis.

Second, in his strange love affair with asymmetrical warfare--he doesn't seem to understand that part of that warfare is the appearance of civilian casualties. So, I would think it stands to reason, that if you love asymmetrical warfare, you would be the one hoping for civilian casualties.

Third, Hamas doesn't wear uniforms in when in conflict. Except that the rockets don't launch themselves, the underground launch sites don't build themselves, stray rifle fire doesn't come from the fresh dew of the morning. This is a point that many news organizations overlook. Hamas fights by striking and then blending in with civilians.

Fourth, Destro also overlooked the footage of the IAF prepared to strike at the site of an underground launch site, but calling off the strike as a child wandered (was pushed?) into the area. That site was later used to launch a rocket at Tel Aviv.

Fifth, Israel has hundreds of hours of footage, data, spies (an extensive network of spies) in Gaza--all used to determine where to strike and when. CNN only has the after footage--which, again, is the whole point of asymmetrical warfare.

So who is it again who has little regard for civilian life?

24 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 1:46:31pm

re: #22 Destro

Whatever you used, you're still wrong, since Israel is very, very clearly not targeting civilians, delivering warnings of attacks, and clearly doing all the other stuff a responsbile nation does when attacking military targets among a civilian populace.

I forget, did you have something you wanted them to do instead? Were you the one saying that they should go assassinate people instead of using missiles?

25 Bob Levin  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 1:46:33pm

re: #22 Destro

Like Shimon Peres and Ehud Barak, right?

26 sattv4u2  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 2:52:21pm

re: #16 Destro

You mean the Israelis did not order a hit at a Hamas official that started all this?

"STARTED"
Lessee,,, what came 1st. The "hit at a Hamas official" or the daily rocket attacks FROM Gaza INTO Israel

((I'll give you a hint ,,,, the Hamas official was alive and well for many a day that those rockets were being launched!!)))

27 Buck  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 3:43:59pm

re: #16 Destro

You mean the Israelis did not order a hit at a Hamas official that started all this?

Classic. Israel defending themselves started this.

I am done with Destro.

If Charles wants this garbage on his site, then that is what he wants. I see no reason to try and reason with seems to me to be completely unreasonable.

Maybe he isn't an antisemite, but he does use the same words, phrases and posts.

You can decide for yourselves. I am done.

28 sattv4u2  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 3:51:11pm

re: #27 Buck

I'm not going to label anyone anything. I have no idea whats in his heart or mind. He sees Israel as the aggressor and the Palestinians as the victims. He is not alone.
I and many others see it the other way.

I pray for the past and future innocent victims on both sides. I know there are reasonable and good Palestinians just as I know there are evil Israelis. I just wish the reasonable ones on both sides prevail!

29 CuriousLurker  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 4:16:22pm

re: #28 sattv4u2

Well, I'll be darned. I don't agree with you very often, but that was very well and seriously stated.

Maybe I'm just not accustomed to you being so serious. Kinda threw me off balance there. ;)

30 sattv4u2  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 4:17:00pm

re: #29 CuriousLurker

Well, I'll be darned. I don't agree wit you very often, but that was very well and seriously stated.

Maybe I'm just not accustomed to you being so serious. Kinda threw me off balance there. ;)

Turned 59 yesterday

Maybe I'm maturing!!

(naahhhhhh!!!!)

31 sattv4u2  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 4:18:19pm

re: #29 CuriousLurker

Seriously though. I'll bet many would be surprised about some, if not most, of my beliefs ,, ESPECIALLY social issues

32 CuriousLurker  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 4:29:33pm

re: #30 sattv4u2

Turned 59 yesterday

Maybe I'm maturing!!

(naahhhhhh!!!!)

Oh, and Happy Belated Birthday!

33 sattv4u2  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 4:30:12pm

re: #32 CuriousLurker

Oh, and Happy Belated Birthday!

t/y
now GET OFF MY LAWN

34 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 6:52:44pm

After thinking further, I have an observation:

The CNN op-ed this thread is about is basically a DARVO piece. It Denys that Hamas started the crisis by firing off rockets, it Accuses Israel of 'provoking' the rocket fire and 'escalating the situation', with both of these part of its Reversal of Victim and Offender. It's a pretty classic DARVO.

35 Destro  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 10:04:46pm

re: #26 sattv4u2

"STARTED"
Lessee,,, what came 1st. The "hit at a Hamas official" or the daily rocket attacks FROM Gaza INTO Israel

((I'll give you a hint ,,,, the Hamas official was alive and well for many a day that those rockets were being launched!!)))

Palestinians in Gaza act as I would expect any blockaded and occupied people to act.

36 Destro  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 10:07:09pm

re: #27 Buck

So people under occupation and blockade (who are having more of their own civilians killed than the other side) are the one and only villain in this?

37 Bob Levin  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 10:40:40pm

re: #35 Destro

Israel withdrew from Gaza, they aren't occupied. There are roads in and out of Gaza, North and South. There are shipping routes to Ashdod port. They aren't blockaded. They can get anything. Israel was trying to stop the weapons flow into Gaza--which didn't happen. That's where we are.

39 Bob Levin  Tue, Nov 20, 2012 10:51:28pm

You see, they are at war. The Gazans are acting as if they are at war with Israel. That would explain everything very simply.

40 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 21, 2012 2:32:41am

re: #35 Destro

Palestinians in Gaza act as I would expect any blockaded and occupied people to act.

Why do you think so many people that have been under 'blockade' and 'occupation' haven't acted in this fashion? Does that bug you at all, that this is different?

41 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 21, 2012 6:27:04am

re: #36 Destro

So people under occupation and blockade (who are having more of their own civilians killed than the other side) are the one and only villain in this?

Because Israel has made very clear to the world that, if Gaza was no longer used to fire rockets at or mount terrorist attacks against Israel, then there would be peace. Israel does enjoy, nor profit by, having to keep up such security around Gaza. They'd much rather that Gaza left Israel alone. But Hamas is murderous and fanatical, and so Israel must keep its guard up.

42 Destro  Wed, Nov 21, 2012 9:42:25am

re: #40 Obdicut

Why do you think so many people that have been under 'blockade' and 'occupation' haven't acted in this fashion? Does that bug you at all, that this is different?

Really?

Tamil Tigers (who invented the suicide bomber - they are Sri Lanka Hindus just in case you are wondering)? IRA? Basques? Bosnian Muslims? Kosovo Albanians? Sikhs? (yes, Sikhs carried out acts of terror), PKK (Kurdistan)? Israel before liberation from British rule? On and on.

What the fuck are you talking about? Where is this fantasy world of yours where occupied people don't resort to terror?


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 Frank says:

I feel it's better to sing about these things ourselves and perform them with the people who it happened to than to have some journalist one day say 'then in 1971, one time when they were at the mudshark hotel...' But people have problems with things of a glandular nature in connection with things of a musical nature. They say why, music is way up here, and glands are way down there and they can't get 'em together, but then they are hypocritical because they take a band that doesn't sing about such things directly and couches their language a little and does it with a little choreography and say that that's great and that's real rock and roll. I maintain that there's no difference, we're just honest enough to get up and say 'this is this and that's that and here you are and respond to it' and the response is 'why... I'm hip, but of course I am offended'.