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1 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 12:17:59pm

The vatican moves so slowly.

Finally getting Cardinals from the rest of the globe.

Maybe in a 100 years it will recognize women are on the globe too.

2 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 12:41:24pm

That's really uncalled for, Jimmah. The fact that the Vatican is appointing people who aren't European and (mostly) aren't white is a sign of diversification and adaptation. When you go after others for doing the right thing you come across looking like a jerk.

3 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 12:47:08pm

I'm thinking this is a bit over the top, to me it's good sign that the pope is appointing non Europeans in the face of a wave of Breivik style anti-multiculturalism.

4 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 12:54:23pm

It might be over the top (definitely smells of cynicism, which is what led me here in the first place), or perhaps the pope sees a 'brighter future' with these particular cardinals because the passion is greater for Catholicism in those particular cultures. In other words, these new cardinals are less likely to straw away from the herd on core issues.

5 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 12:57:38pm

Broad brushing those nations as "pools of ignorance" is not cool.

6 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 12:57:58pm

re: #4 Eclectic Infidel

I'm not saying that Jimmah is entirely wrong either, I'm sure there are more motives than just one driving the Pope's decisions on these appointments.

7 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 1:08:00pm

re: #6 Randall Gross

I'm not saying that Jimmah is entirely wrong either, I'm sure there are more motives than just one driving the Pope's decisions on these appointments.

I think Jimmah is onto something here. Some no doubt will argue that this church deserves a modicum of respect. Regardless, we all know what the Roman Church peddles; with a final selling point that you get to avoid eternal pain. From a loving creator deity. In Europe, it would seem that the popular consensus is to do your own critical thinking.

8 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 1:14:22pm

re: #6 Randall Gross

re: #7 Eclectic Infidel

IIRC Jimmah is right with Chris Hitchens on the Catholic church. I too get it but yeah, harsh. No downding from me I know he has to show some patience with my posts at times.

9 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 1:19:06pm

re: #8 Political Atheist

Yeah me too, because as a certifiable "enemy of free speech" I save my down dings for the demonstrably bigotted, like Pat Condell.

10 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 1:23:28pm

re: #2 Dark_Falcon

That's really uncalled for, Jimmah. The fact that the Vatican is appointing people who aren't European and (mostly) aren't white is a sign of diversification and adaptation. When you go after others for doing the right thing you come across looking like a jerk.

In Jimmah's defense, I've not known him to be a racist or a bigot, so I don't think his reference to "new pools of ignorance" had anything to do with ethnicity (though I can see how it could easily be interpreted that way)—most likely it's a reference to their religious belief. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and withhold down-dinging on that point unless he indicates that he meant otherwise.

That doesn't mean I like the way he worded it. I don't. I think it's unnecessarily caustic & offensive (which tends to shut down rational conversation and provoke emotional reactions), but then he's not exactly known for his subtlety (heh) and I am the way I am, so we're naturally gonna rub each other the wrong way occasionally.

11 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 1:24:46pm

re: #9 Randall Gross

Yeah me too, because as a certifiable "enemy of free speech" I save my down dings for the demonstrably bigotted, like Pat Condell.

This line comes somewhat close to Condell's blunt level of insult:

"...[s]currying to new pools of ignorance"

*scurrying

*new pools of ignorance.

Imagery and intellectual stimula.

12 Political Atheist  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 1:25:14pm

re: #10 CuriousLurker

Jimmah is no bigot. Not that I have ever seen in 4 years around here.

13 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 1:26:49pm

re: #11 Eclectic Infidel

Yeah, but Jimmah's not linking arms with the no new mosque crowd of far right fascists like Pat is.

14 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 1:27:20pm

re: #11 Eclectic Infidel

This line comes somewhat close to Condell's blunt level of insult:

"...[s]currying to new pools of ignorance"

*scurrying

*new pools of ignorance.

Imagery and intellectual stimula.

True, but Jimmah isn't in alliance with haters like Pam Geller, as Condell is. He is also far more positive than Condell. So I'll downding, but I'll also say that Jimmah is far, far better than PAt Condell.

15 Eclectic Infidel  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 1:30:02pm

re: #13 Randall Gross

Yeah, but Jimmah's not linking arms with the no new mosque crowd of far right fascists like Pat is.

True. Or at least I'll take your word for it. Just kidding. I was strictly referring to the particular wording.

16 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 1:31:50pm

There are deep pools of true ignorance (under educated poor people) in every country that Jimmah mentions. If you want to take umbrage with him using the US you have a leg to stand on, but anyone can point to rural Texas, Missouri, or Louisiana if they want to prove his point. It's also in these tribal backwaters in the subcontinent of Asia and Africa that fundamentalist and xenophobic religion(s) flourishes.

17 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 1:32:30pm

In other words ignorance in the sense he used it is Correct.

18 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 1:45:59pm

re: #5 Political Atheist

You can interpret it that way, however if you do it might be you applying the broad brush. Pools are literally small things whereas nations are generally large things. Jimmah did not say Ponds, Lakes, or Oceans, instead he used "pools". The only thing smaller than pools that comes to mind are puddles.

19 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 1:56:07pm

re: #18 Randall Gross

Aaargh! Communication can be such a minefield. We all interpret things through our own personal "lenses": D_F saw it as a slap at ethnic diversity, I saw it as a slap at religion, RWC saw it as a broad slap rather than a narrow/specific one ("pools" being small things, something that completely escaped me until you pointed it out)...

Guess we'll have to wait for Jimmah to return and tell us exactly what he meant.

20 ProGunLiberal  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 2:03:50pm

re: #19 CuriousLurker

I think he shot from the hip, but I think I see what he is saying. Benedict is choosing people to uphold outdated ideas.

Unfortunately, the Catholic Church is only going to get detached from the rest of us if they keep going down nutcase lane.

21 goddamnedfrank  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 2:21:14pm

re: #4 Eclectic Infidel

It might be over the top (definitely smells of cynicism, which is what led me here in the first place), or perhaps the pope sees a 'brighter future' with these particular cardinals because the passion is greater for Catholicism in those particular cultures. In other words, these new cardinals are less likely to straw away from the herd on core issues.

Yeah, they're the hardcore bigots, that's why they got picked. These are the guys who hate gays and women's reproductive freedom the most. The Vatican is diversifying top leadership now because it's the only way of ensuring that power will continue to reside with the most backwards, hate filled socially conservative factions.

22 Randall Gross  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 2:26:18pm

Btw: the part I thought was over the top was "abandoning Europe" but on the other hand I do read continuing articles that the future for evangelicals and Catholics is in Africa and Asia.

23 CuriousLurker  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 3:09:35pm

re: #22 Randall Gross

Btw: the part I thought was over the top was "abandoning Europe" but on the other hand I do read continuing articles that the future for evangelicals and Catholics is in Africa and Asia.

Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't sure what part you were referring to.

24 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 3:49:39pm

re: #10 CuriousLurker

In Jimmah's defense, I've not known him to be a racist or a bigot, so I don't think his reference to "new pools of ignorance" had anything to do with ethnicity (though I can see how it could easily be interpreted that way)—most likely it's a reference to their religious belief. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and withhold down-dinging on that point unless he indicates that he meant otherwise.

That doesn't mean I like the way he worded it. I don't. I think it's unnecessarily caustic & offensive (which tends to shut down rational conversation and provoke emotional reactions), but then he's not exactly known for his subtlety (heh) and I am the way I am, so we're naturally gonna rub each other the wrong way occasionally.

Thanks CL and Randall.

Pools of ignorance means exactly what Randall took it to be. I'm talking about the cynical, planned exploitation of people in places where there are clearly educational deficits. It is not an ethnic or even national smear. America for example produces some of the finest, best educated minds around (I should know - I married one of them) but as none of us would deny, there are also alarmingly deep pools of ignorance there which create the environment that religious snake-oil sellers love.

In Europe, the result of religion's engagement in the battle of ideas is in and while religions like Catholicism aren't entirely dead yet, they aren't going anywhere but down from now on.

25 Ziggy Standard  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 4:25:56pm

re: #8 Political Atheist

re: #7 Eclectic Infidel

IIRC Jimmah is right with Chris Hitchens on the Catholic church. I too get it but yeah, harsh. No downding from me I know he has to show some patience with my posts at times.

I come from a Catholic family - my dad is still a believer who goes to church every sunday. I never argue about religion with him or challenge his beliefs,(he doesn't even know I'm an atheist) because he is one of those believers who believe only for the very best of reasons and they make him happy. I think most believers are like that.

It's the religious loudmouths in the clergy and in the media who use and manipulate ordinary believers who piss me off.

To give a small example of what I'm talking about - 20 odd years ago I watched Dawkin's Royal Society Christmas Lectures on TV with my dad - he enjoyed it and as far as he was concerned Dawkins was simply an educator on the subject of biology.

He's not the kind of guy who follows science on a regular basis though, and I'm sure in the intervening time he forgot all about who Dawkins was. Now, following a recent sermon in church, he thinks Dawkins is an evil man who people should be warned against. Because the priest told him to think that, and priests have some smidgin of divine authority and would never just talk rubbish.

I've heard similar stories about the kind of thing that is being said in church sermons recently - here, it really is looking like the church is becoming the UK's version of Fox News - giving older people (their main congregation these days) the fear about progress, modernity, women's rights and science in order to buttress their position and their failing world view.

Don't be fooled into thinking that their latest move into non-european environments (not exactly a new thing anyway) represents some kind of embrace of progressive ideas - they're just looking for more places that they hope will prove more fertile ground for their dumbshittery.

Kinda vampiric when you think about it.

26 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 5:48:03pm

re: #25 Ayeless in Ghazi

It's seems more that the population of Europe is aging while in places like India its much younger. Also appointments of cardinals in India (this the second cardinal there the pope has appointed this year) also can help improve the standing of the Catholic Church among people of Indian extraction who live in Europe and North America, and those are also younger populations than white people. If the future is found in the young, it makes sense for the Church to go where the young are to be found.

That's the tactical reasons. But I really do believe there's more to it than that. For all its troubles, the Catholic Church is fundamentally not a racist institution. In my observation, Pope Benedict really does believe that salvation is for all humankind and he seeks to bring those who will follow to it, whatever the skin color or language may be. And that ecumenicalism (I likely have the wrong word) is a good thing.

27 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 7:18:46pm

re: #22 Randall Gross

Btw: the part I thought was over the top was "abandoning Europe" but on the other hand I do read continuing articles that the future for evangelicals and Catholics is in Africa and Asia.

I have seen that too, but I don't think that it is very widespread common knowledge yet. A lot of the more fundamentalist evangelicals have started calling America "lost" and are looking to Africa and Asia to increase their numbers as they lose ground here. The number and funding of missionaries has increased dramatically and so too has the meddling in local politics.

They are fighting hard against any acceptance of progressive ideals on the entire spectrum of social issues. The rhetoric and ruthlessness employed overseas is much harsher than that used in this country where such statements and activities would not be considered P.C.. Probably the most notable example being the attempt to get Uganda to make Homosexuality a death penalty offense.

I have seen quite a few articles by semi-prominent evangelical figures where the author is basically writing off the future ability of the evangelical church to grow in America. Since as evangelicals their first mission is to convert as many people as possible worldwide and bring them into the church they are looking for greener pastures. They all seem to see great promise in Africa as being someplace where not only can they gain many converts but where they can stop progressive social ideas from ever even getting a foothold.

Asian countries are obviously a potentially huge source of new converts given their population sizes but the challenge is much harder there. Governments that are leery of any increase of evangelical influence and outright hostile to any attempts at interference with policies are the norm in Asia. Who can blame them? They have had several hundred years of previous experience with missionaries from many European countries and America itself who arrived with a colonial mindset.

Yet another hurdle is that traditional Asian culture itself is in some ways not readily adaptable to Christianity as practiced by the fundamentalist evangelicals. Still the attractive potential increase of their flock size means that the evangelicals are not going to give up on Asia even in the face of these difficulties. Instead they have simply continued to quietly increase their efforts while pragmatically admitting that it will be a long process to achieve significant results.

28 freetoken  Sat, Nov 24, 2012 7:51:27pm

I have been chewing on this the past hour or so and the thing that comes to my mind is simply this: it's not wrong to call someone "ignorant" if indeed they are so.

From the OSX English dictionary:

ignorant |ˈignərənt|
adjective

lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated : he was told constantly that he was ignorant and stupid.
• [ predic. ] lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular : they were ignorant of astronomy.

It strikes me as accurate to say that in this world of 7.1 billion people there really are "pools" of people, by the hundreds of millions here and there, who really are ignorant of the current positions of the Catholic Church, and of its history.

We, here posting at LGF, are rather elitist (that's not a moral indication) in that we are, on a global scale, highly educated (regardless of any formal documents from colleges), highly motivated, and very well informed (at least about what is happening in the US and the developed world.)

Practicing a religion is rather universal among humanity, and it appears to be an essential human trait. It is hardly surprising, therefor, that one religion (Roman Catholicism) sees it has a market anywhere and everywhere.

29 Destro  Sun, Nov 25, 2012 8:41:21am

re: #25 Ayeless in Ghazi

I lived in Europe. Outside of holidays and marriages and baptisms, no one goes to Church weekly that much. Depending on where you are, religion is also linked to ethnic identity and culture even if you are not religious. But the Europeans have moved on and view religion as a philosophy rather than some supernatural entity.

I am kind of shocked so many Americans still believe in invisible beings and ghosts and demons and angels and whatever and that there are people possessed by spirits.

I think many Americans are religious because they enjoy religious community (the poor man's country club) and the philosophies behind it and I am pretty sure fewer Americans will believe in the supernatural aspects of their religions as time goes by.

30 Obdicut  Sun, Nov 25, 2012 9:03:30am

re: #29 Destro

I lived in Europe. Outside of holidays and marriages and baptisms, no one goes to Church weekly that much

Except in Poland, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Ireland, France, even allowing for hyperbole on your part.


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