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1 researchok  Sun, Nov 25, 2012 4:21:09pm

Morality and freedom have a life of their own, no matter how hard the ideologues and 'religious' leaders of both sides would have you believe otherwise.

You can't unring the bell of peace.

Humans will always adapt to what serves them best.

That is never conflict.

2 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Nov 25, 2012 4:27:53pm

I would note one exception. The ADL.

3 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 25, 2012 4:56:15pm

re: #2 ProGunLiberal

I would note one exception. The ADL.

*SIGH* You're not being helpful. Are you sure about that exception?

The ADL isn't perfect, in fact I think Foxman got it especially wrong on the "Ground Zero" mosque issue, but there have been many other instances where they've tried to help. Just to name a few:

ADL Statement on Dennis Prager's Attack On Muslim Congressman for Taking Oath of Office on Koran

ADL: Anti-Muslim sentiment ‘significant’

ADL Opposes Oklahoma Anti-Sharia Measure

ADL Backgrounder: Anti-Muslim Discrimination and Bigotry in the United States (PDF)

Shout Down the Sharia Myth Makers

David Yerushalmi: A Driving Force Behind Anti-Sharia Efforts in the U.S.

ADL Strongly Condemns Alleged Anti-Muslim Hate Crime in Queens

You might want to check your facts before pointing fingers next time.

4 researchok  Sun, Nov 25, 2012 5:04:28pm

re: #3 CuriousLurker

What I recall is how the ADL, in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, organized escorts for Muslims in Detroit and elsewhere who were (in many cases, justifiably) afraid for their safety.

They made sure to escort Muslims to and from shopping trips, schools and elsewhere.

I'm no expert on the ADL but as I like to emphasize, I don't care much about creed. For me it is the deeds which best speak to the character of a person.

No one is perfect of course and foot in mouth is a part of the human condition.

When all is said and done it is actions that speak far more eloquently than any spoken words.

5 CuriousLurker  Sun, Nov 25, 2012 5:15:37pm

re: #4 researchok

What I recall is how the ADL, in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, organized escorts for Muslims in Detroit and elsewhere who were (in many cases, justifiably) afraid for their safety.

They made sure to escort Muslims to and from shopping trips, schools and elsewhere.

That's great. See? I wasn't even aware of that as in the aftermath there was only one TV station working for several days, and I was in a rather nasty black fog of roiling negative emotions for a good six weeks after the attack, so I'm not really surprised I missed it.

No one is perfect of course and foot in mouth is a part of the human condition.

When all is said and done it is actions that speak far more eloquently than any spoken words.

True that.

6 researchok  Sun, Nov 25, 2012 5:22:28pm

re: #5 CuriousLurker

Show me a moral, ethical and honest person and I'll show you are person I admire and respect.

And I could care less about their religious persuasion.

7 eightyfiv  Sun, Nov 25, 2012 10:35:17pm

Personally, I'm skeptical about this sort of thing helping the Israeli-Palestinian conflict... not because it isn't a beautiful and productive thing to pursue, but because the conflict on the ground seems more tribal than religious, more about land, freedom, and control than about beliefs. We need bridges among the people who are actually there, not among their weakly connected coreligionists half a world away. There's only so much pressure you can exert from your armchair on someone living under rocket fire.

8 CuriousLurker  Mon, Nov 26, 2012 10:10:36am

re: #7 eightyfiv

Personally, I'm skeptical about this sort of thing helping the Israeli-Palestinian conflict... not because it isn't a beautiful and productive thing to pursue, but because the conflict on the ground seems more tribal than religious, more about land, freedom, and control than about beliefs. We need bridges among the people who are actually there, not among their weakly connected coreligionists half a world away. There's only so much pressure you can exert from your armchair on someone living under rocket fire.

I agree, but I think what the writer was getting at was a slower, long-term effort that would have a more organic foundation and therefore be longer lasting. The Israelis & Palestinians have been locked in a death grip for decades. IMO, even if Hamas did a complete about face tomorrow and Israel met all reasonable demands, there has been so much bitter hatred, anger, and resentment that it would be decades before anything that could be considered even a moderately healthy relationship could exist. Trust (if it ever existed) would have to be rebuilt from zero. People would have to be willing to forgive and to let go of grudges.

Personally, I'm not hopeful about the situation even though I'm generally a pretty optimistic person. There's too much water under the bridge, too many outside forces involved...and it only seems to be getting worse...positions have hardened to the point of petrification.

OTOH, in the West we're free of most of that baggage. We have a choice, the luxury of security, of time to think because no one is hunkered down trying to avoid getting killed. The grassroots efforts are voluntary and sincere, not something imposed from the outside. As the article said, that leaves room for rational discussion, changing of attitudes, increased understanding, and the dismantling of stereotypes.

It's those new attitudes that have to potential to ripple outwards, eastward, and effect changes in thinking—changes not necessarily to the Israelis & Palestinians involved, but changes among the outside forces that contribute to the problem.

It might take a couple of generations (or more) for that to happen—too late for the people suffering right now, but at least it's something. The alternative is to ignore the problem and hope it solves itself (which obviously hasn't happened so far), or to risk letting it seep into Jewish-Muslim relations in the West (there are haters on both sides working towards that end). I, for one, don't want anything to do with importing that poison, so anything that has the potential to result in a net gain, no matter how small or how far down the road, is a win (IMO).


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 Frank says:

Mr Zappa, I am astounded at the courtesy and soft voiced nature of the comments of my friend, the Senator from Tennessee. I can only say that I find your statement to be boorish, incredibly and insensitively insulting to the people who were here previously, that you could manage to give the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States a bad name, if I felt you had the slightest understanding of it, which I do not. -- - Senator Slade Gorton