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1 alinuxguru  Mon, Nov 26, 2012 6:02:56am

Amen

2 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 26, 2012 6:11:22am

Bravo! That reply is exactly the right one for dealing with body count BS.

3 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 26, 2012 6:15:19am

I just want to know when the rules of war were redefined to "The side that gets the most civilian casualties, wins!"

4 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 26, 2012 6:31:04am

re: #3 Vicious Babushka

I just want to know when the rules of war were redefined to "The side that gets the most civilian casualties, wins!"

When members of the media decided that Hamas deserved a pass because Gama is the "poor underdog".

5 War On Music  Mon, Nov 26, 2012 8:52:42am

saying "That doesn’t excuse the death of any innocent people in Gaza-they are a stain on Israel, but..." is pretty much saying "That excuses the death of any innocent people in Gaza".

Of course, they deserve it, right? They're the ones who elected Hamas.

6 Flavia  Mon, Nov 26, 2012 9:02:43am

re: #5 War On Music

saying "That doesn’t excuse the death of any innocent people in Gaza-they are a stain on Israel, but..." is pretty much saying "That excuses the death of any innocent people in Gaza".

Huih? How do you get that? By leaving out everything after the "but" is my guess.

Of course, they deserve it, right? They're the ones who elected Hamas.

Or the same place you get this.

When you can't refute what is said, it's always a GREAT tactic to insist the other side said something else - especially if you can't show that the other side said it at all!

7 philosophus invidius  Mon, Nov 26, 2012 9:48:59am

Goldberg's claim is correct--to a point. Lopsidedness of civilian causalities is not itself proof of criminal behavior, and for just the reasons he gives. But it is still a worrisome sign.

Unintended but foreseeable civilian deaths are permissible only when they are the by-product of an action that is justified by "military necessity," or when the deaths are "proportionate" to the military advantages of the action. But since Hamas seems mostly impotent at carrying out their (murderous) plans, it is not obvious that the deaths of innocents in Gaza can be justified in those terms.

One rough test for this would be: would Israel be willing to carry out the same actions with the same foreseeable civilian deaths if Hamas were hiding their rockets and fighters in Tel Aviv (assuming they posed the same threat in other respects)? Would the civilian deaths there still be "worth it" to create a deterrence and kill a few Hamas leaders?

8 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 26, 2012 9:56:40am

re: #6 Flavia

Huih? How do you get that? By leaving out everything after the "but" is my guess.

Or the same place you get this.

When you can't refute what is said, it's always a GREAT tactic to insist the other side said something else - especially if you can't show that the other side said it at all!

It's what "War on Music" does, he trolls about Israel and the Middle East.

Spellbind the troll with your GAZE.

9 philosophus invidius  Mon, Nov 26, 2012 10:04:45am
Whenever I read a statement like this, I wonder if the person writing it believes that there is a large moral difference between attempted murder and successfully completed murder.

Is it self-defense when you kill someone who wants to kill you but can't?

10 Flavia  Mon, Nov 26, 2012 1:19:26pm

re: #8 Dark_Falcon

It's what "War on Music" does, he trolls about Israel and the Middle East.

Spellbind the troll with your GAZE.

Yes, I am beginning to see that I will have to do just this with this sort. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

11 kristina37  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 5:11:43pm

re: #7 philosophus invidius

Goldberg's claim is correct--to a point. Lopsidedness of civilian causalities is not itself proof of criminal behavior, and for just the reasons he gives. But it is still a worrisome sign.

Unintended but foreseeable civilian deaths are permissible only when they are the by-product of an action that is justified by "military necessity," or when the deaths are "proportionate" to the military advantages of the action. But since Hamas seems mostly impotent at carrying out their (murderous) plans, it is n)ot obvious that the deaths of innocents in Gaza can be justified in those terms.

One rough test for this would be: would Israel be willing to carry out the same actions with the same foreseeable civilian deaths if Hamas were hiding their rockets and fighters in Tel Aviv (assuming they posed the same threat in other respects)? Would the civilian deaths there still be "worth it" to create a deterrence and kill a few Hamas leaders?

Actually, there's another factor at play here. And that is another highly significant reason why casualties in Gaza are so much higher than those in Israel. (And its something that is never or infrequently mentioned in the politically correct mainstream media): Why Israel had many fewer civilian casualties than Gaza

12 kristina37  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 5:15:27pm

re: #11 kristina37

(And its something that is never or infrequently mentioned in the politically correct mainstream media): Why Israel had many fewer civilian casualties than Gaza

And, as is obvious from the comments in that discussion,surprisingly it didn't get much of a positive response here either. (In fact, I was rather surprised at the hostility it evoked).

13 kristina37  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 5:18:28pm

re: #5 War On Music

saying "That doesn’t excuse the death of any innocent people in Gaza-they are a stain on Israel, but..." is pretty much saying "That excuses the death of any innocent people in Gaza".

Of course, they deserve it, right? They're the ones who elected Hamas.

What on earth are you talking about???
No-one here is saying that!

14 Flavia  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 7:33:13pm

re: #9 philosophus invidius

Is it self-defense when you kill someone who wants to kill you but can't?

If you ask a question that has no bearing on the subject, does the tree still fall in the forest?

Strike one.

15 Flavia  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 7:35:26pm

re: #7 philosophus invidius

One rough test for this would be: would Israel be willing to carry out the same actions with the same foreseeable civilian deaths if Hamas were hiding their rockets and fighters in Tel Aviv (assuming they posed the same threat in other respects)? Would the civilian deaths there still be "worth it" to create a deterrence and kill a few Hamas leaders?

The rough test would fail because the denizens of Tel Aviv would

a) get out of the way as the IDF asks the Gazans to do
b) turn on the terrorists themselves

Strike two.


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