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1 EiMitch  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 3:03:48pm

Israel also has their "iron dome" defense system. That also saved lives. Of course, I realize the Palestinians can't afford an equivalent system. On the other hand, simple bomb shelters (as opposed to the kind intended to "survive" a nuclear apocalypse) shouldn't be an unreasonable addition to the "to-do" list of any group of people in frequent conflict. A simple cellar made of thick, reinforced concrete should suffice.

In fact, its so simple that I hesitate to believe the claim that Palestinians don't have plenty of these. How about an official survey on the matter? That would be something.

2 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 3:08:05pm

re: #1 EiMitch

One issue- Gaza strip is right on the sea. I guarantee if you dug down there, it would quickly turn into an makeshift swimming pool.

Also, if I am not mistaken, Israel has been blocking concrete from going in, so that would be a futile exercise anyway, the the sorts of weapons being used.

3 kristina37  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 3:42:00pm

re: #1 EiMitch

Israel also has their "iron dome" defense system. That also saved lives. Of course, I realize the Palestinians can't afford an equivalent system.

Hamas unable to get rockets? Surely you jest!

Hamas has lots of rockets. So Hamas' ability to get rockets is not the problem. Rather, its the type of rocket each side chooses to get that's different. Israel's Iron Dome rockets are strictly for defense-- to prevent civilian casualties. OTOH, the rockets Hamas chooses are strictly for offense-- to cause civilian casualties. And that's the difference.

On the other hand, simple bomb shelters (as opposed to the kind intended to "survive" a nuclear apocalypse) shouldn't be an unreasonable addition to the "to-do" list of any group of people in frequent conflict. A simple cellar made of thick, reinforced concrete should suffice.

I believe you are making an assumption here. A false assumption: namely, that, like Israel, Hamas wants to avoid casualties amongst their own civilians. But in fact, the opposite is true-- Hamas' barbaric goal is to cause civilian casualties in Gaza.

In fact, its so simple that I hesitate to believe the claim that Palestinians don't have plenty of these. How about an official survey on the matter? That would be something.

Would you trust anything from Hamas? (How much do you know about the group?)

But its probably a moot point--- I doubt if such a survey exists.

However, I googled for info on bomb shelters for both Israel and Gaza. Israel has lots of shelters (as well as safe rooms in apt bldgs) for their civilians, Hamas does not. (Now it is possible I may have missed something. So if you are interested and have some time, I recommend you do the same. Perhaps you can find some information about shelters H. has built for Gaza 's people. I strongly doubt that they did, but its possible I am wrong).

4 calochortus  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 4:02:56pm

re: #3 kristina37

As far as I can figure out concrete could not be imported legally into Gaza until a couple years ago. With a population of over 1.7 million, at this point, even if they started building shelters, what percentage of the population could find a space in one? How would they decide who would be entitled to that protection?

Now, I would have to think that the Hamas leadership might want to consider that lobbing rockets into a neighboring country under those conditions is not a great plan, but evidently not. On the other hand, the Palestinians do have real and valid grievances, but their leadership is not serving them well.

5 kristina37  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 4:07:12pm

re: #2 ProGunLiberal

One issue- Gaza Strip is right on the sea. I guarantee if you dug down there, it would quickly turn into an makeshift swimming pool.

Think about it a minute--if what you say were to be true, how can there be so many smuggling tunnels dug in Gaza? They don't become swimming pools. (Perhaps it is, once again, a matter of Hamas' priorities. They need the tunnels to smuggle in rockets and other offensive weapons, whereas bomb shelters would only save lives, which would be counter-productive to Hamas' goals).

Also, if I am not mistaken, Israel has been blocking concrete from going in, so that would be a futile exercise anyway, the the sorts of weapons being used.

True, at one time they did not allow it in. But a lot has changed as far as Gaza is concerned. Concrete has been available there for a while now:

"Construction at a peak in Gaza":

Palestine Times has a photo essay showing a torrid pace of construction in Gaza, saying it has reached a peak since the 2009 war. This is something that you will not read anywhere in English.

6 EiMitch  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 4:19:50pm

re: #2 ProGunLiberal

Oh yeah? Well...

Um, oh yeah? ... Shut up! j/k

Moving on.

re: #3 kristina37

Hamas unable to get rockets? Surely you jest!

Nice strawman.

Rather, its the type of rocket each side chooses to get that's different.

And here you demonstrate that you knew what I meant.

Israel's Iron Dome rockets are strictly for defense-- to prevent civilian casualties. OTOH, the rockets Hamas chooses are strictly for offense-- to cause civilian casualties.

Or maybe not.

Hamas bought a bunch of rockets and removed the warheads in order to make them lighter and increase flight range.

Israel has a smart radar system that can distinguish rockets likely to fall harmlessly into fields or water on their own from rockets likely to hit cities, and automatically strike the latter mid-flight.

Can you program an entire network of rockets to do all that with your smart tab? If not, then its safe to say there is more to iron dome than rockets. Hence, strawman.

I believe you are making an assumption here. A false assumption: namely, that, like Israel, Hamas wants to avoid casualties amongst their own civilians.

Since when have I had anything nice to say about Hamas? Take some prozac or something. I was talking about whether or not the Palestinians in general had thought of making bomb shelters. Surely, it had occurred to them at some point they'd need 'em. Like I said, a solid building cellar should do.

Would you trust anything from Hamas? (How much do you know about the group?)

If only there was some international organization which could survey something simple like whether residential buildings had cellars strong enough to shelter the inhabitants in an emergency. One can only dream. /sarc

However, I googled for info on bomb shelters for both Israel and Gaza. Israel has lots of shelters (as well as safe rooms in apt bldgs) for their civilians, Hamas does not.

Wtf?! Didn't you just say you didn't trust... I mean... Why would... **head explodes**

7 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 4:41:22pm

re: #3 kristina37

Hamas unable to get rockets? Surely you jest!

Hamas has lots of rockets. So Hamas' ability to get rockets is not the problem. Rather, its the type of rocket each side chooses to get that's different. Israel's Iron Dome rockets are strictly for defense-- to prevent civilian casualties. OTOH, the rockets Hamas chooses are strictly for offense-- to cause civilian casualties. And that's the difference.

Um, no the difference is, mostly in radar and control systems.

A point defence system like Iron dome requires a very sophisticated radar system with a large number of transmitter/receivers using multiple frequencies (so they don't interfere with one another) tied to sophisticated computers that can pick out the track of a rocket from the many other 'returns' they receive.

The counter missiles launched are guided. Although the guidance method is secret they are probably command guided, that is a radio signal is used to control them. Although radar guided is not out of the question. This requires a computer system sophisticated enough to receive a constant stream of data on the threats the battery needs to cover, calculate an intercepting trajectory and then guide the counter missile to the target.

It's a very complex task that was only possible in the last twenty five years approximately. The earlier types of missiles of this sort were only mildly successful, although rarely used in combat. Iron Dome is the latest generation of these weapons and draws on years of experience along with the most modern technology.

The Hamas weapons are simple ballistic rockets not much different from those used for centuries by too many nations to list.

Anyway, it doesn't matter, really. The Palestinian/Israeli conflict can't be brought to an end by either weapons or technology.

8 War On Music  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 4:48:44pm
However, I googled for info on bomb shelters for both Israel and Gaza. Israel has lots of shelters (as well as safe rooms in apt bldgs) for their civilians, Hamas does not.

Gaza and Hamas are two separate entities. Every time you generalize the entire population of Gaza to a small group of non-state actors, you create a false equivalency that, in my mind, shows how you really feel about all Palestinians.

9 kristina37  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:17:50pm
However, I googled for info on bomb shelters for both Israel and Gaza. Israel has lots of shelters (as well as safe rooms in apt bldgs) for their civilians, Hamas does not.

Wtf?! Didn't you just say you didn't trust... I mean... Why would... **head explodes**

Sorry, don't understand your comment. Don't trust what?

Trust that there are shelters in Israel? There was never any doubt in my minds that Israel had bomb shelters. In fact, other safeguards as well-- reinforced rooms in large buildings that were easier to reach than shelters. Even large concrete pipes for use in a pinch. Even other similar things... -- I've known that for years.

Whether or not there are shelters in Gaza? That I did not know. But the issue if whether ir not there were shelters in Gaza never crossed my mind. Until a few days ago. I was watching coverage on al Jazeera, and the footage they showed was of people running out of houses. The announcer mentioned that they had no place to go--no place to hide! At the time I didn't make the connection, but later had the thought: why don't they go to their bomb shelters the way people do in Israel? Then i realized that perhaps they didn't have bomb shelters. (Given the nature of Hamas, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't provide them, at least not for civilians.)

So I Googled, and couldn't find any evidence of civilian shelters in Gaza. Not from Arab sources,not from Israeli sources, not from major "neutral" news media. So the conclusion I came to is that, until proven otherwise, is that al Jazeera was correct-- they had no shelters to go to.

However, in terms of trusting that report on al Jazeera and also what I googled, I did say this (in a comment above):

I googled for info on bomb shelters for both Israel and Gaza. Israel has lots of shelters (as well as safe rooms in apt bldgs) for their civilians, Hamas does not. (Now it is possible I may have missed something. So if you are interested and have some time, I recommend you do the same. Perhaps you can find some information about shelters H. has built for Gaza 's people. I strongly doubt that they did, but its possible I am wrong).

P.S: When was the last time you heard someone say that in an Internet discussion ("I may be wrong"). LOL ....

10 kristina37  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:25:25pm

re: #8 War On Music

Gaza and Hamas are two separate entities./blockquote>

Well, I haven't been active here in a while, so its no surprise that no one knows me. However, either I was unclear in what I wrote-- or you are making several assumptions that aren't justified by the facts. Or maybe a little of both.

First of all, I am well aware that they are different "entities". One is geographic ("political") area, the other is a group of religious extremist nutcases who also really violent thugs. And I am also aware that not all people living in Gaza are Hamas members or even synpathizers, and that all Hamas members are not living in Gaza.

In addition, I am also aware of the fact that there are smaller groups there as well-- mostly notably Islamic Jihad, whom are even more radical than Hamas.

I am also aware that in the recent past there have been periods where not only did Hamas not fire rockets at Israel, but when they also actually stopped (often by violent means) the firing of rockets by other, more radical groups (esp. Islamic Jihad). Yup-- Hamas actively stopped others from firing rockets. I am aware of that, as I am sure you are as well.

Every time you generalize the entire population of Gaza to a small group of non-state actors, you create a false equivalency that, in my mind, shows how you really feel about all Palestinians.

Well, your assumption is totally inaccurate. First of all, I did not generalize the entire population. That's an assumption on your part-- I recommend you re-read what I said.

The fact is -- I am well aware that all of Gaza is not Hamas. And, some are quite probably apolitical as well. (And, of the ones that Hamas has not murdered by throwing off roof tops or torturing to death in prisons---many are not even religious.) Finally, if any have survived Hamas rule, some are not Muslims, some not even Palestinian (a fair number are actually Egyptians-- no more Jews though-- they all left-- lock, stock and barrel-- even settlement).

a false equivalency

Between what and what? if you're still confused, read the recent history-- especially about what happened between Fatah and Hamas when Hamas seized control.

in my mind, shows how you really feel about all Palestinians.

Actually what that probably shows is that I was unclear in what I wrote-- or you were making some false assumptions as well as generalizations.

No one was talking about "all Palestinians" (the vast majority of whom, as I'm sure you are aware, do not even live in Gaza-- or even in the adjacent areas. )

I used to spend a great deal of time and effort defending myself (and occasionally others) against false accusations. But I realize its a waste of time.

So let me state unequivocally that your assumption is totally false. If you wish to continue to believe it, that's your business-- I'm not going to try to waste both our times by attempting to change your mind. (Btw, my impression of you is that that was a momentary slip, and that you are not the kind of person who jumps to hasty conclusions & prejudges someone they just met, based on an erroneous interpretation of something they read).

Have a nice night (and I mean that sincerely :-)

11 EiMitch  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:08:20pm

re: #6 EiMitch

Wtf?! Didn't you just say you didn't trust... I mean... Why would... **head explodes**

re: #9 kristina37

Sorry, don't understand your comment. Don't trust what?

Not only did you completely miss the point of the joke, you even made it the focus of your response?! ...

...

...

Whaa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha...

**five minutes later**

...ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-**cough-cough-cough**-ha-ha-ha-ha-...

**ten minutes later**

...ha-ha-ha-ha!!!111!!11!!1!11!!!

Thank you. No, really. I needed that.

For the rest of the post, you simply reiterated in long-form what you just said about Googling it.

And as for your response to War on Music, you spend alot of time talking about how he assumed you were equating Hamas with Gaza or the Palestinians or something. And then:

I used to spend a great deal of time and effort defending myself (and occasionally others) against false accusations. But I realize its a waste of time.

...

...

Whaa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha...

12 Eclectic Infidel  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 12:50:58pm

re: #8 War On Music

Gaza and Hamas are two separate entities. Every time you generalize the entire population of Gaza to a small group of non-state actors, you create a false equivalency that, in my mind, shows how you really feel about all Palestinians.

Did Palestinians not vote Hamas into power?

I agree, Gaza and Hamas are two different things, but given that the local population voted them into power, well, it's not a stretch to confuse the two.

13 kristina37  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 4:48:51pm

re: #11 EiMitch

Not only did you completely miss the point of the joke, you even made it the focus of your response?! ...

Well, OK. So I missed the point of the joke, My bad.

But why all the hostility?

I see no need to attempt to turn a discussion of the topic into a series of personal attacks-- even if we do have different opinions. Why can't we simply discuss the actual topic (realizing that people have different opinions) instead of engaging in personal attacks?


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