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1 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:33:31pm
But Shaeffel insisted that her brother had no need to turn to burglary, as he made good money working for their father's tree-trimming business.

She added that her cousin, who had undergone treatment for substance abuse, could have been after pills from the home.

It sounds fishy, but even relatives of the deceased believe that one of these "star students" may have been trying to steal pills.

However, the description does sound odd and I hope there's a thorough investigation and fact-finding.

I don't like guns either, but I can't blame anyone for shooting someone who has positively committed the crime of breaking and entering.

2 The Gender Ambiguity of a Flea  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 5:49:20pm

re: #1 ReamWorks SKG

It sounds fishy, but even relatives of the deceased believe that one of these "star students" may have been trying to steal pills.

However, the description does sound odd and I hope there's a thorough investigation and fact-finding.

I don't like guns either, but I can't blame anyone for shooting someone who has positively committed the crime of breaking and entering.

When he switched guns for the purpose of killing the second, incapacitated intruder--and emptied a bunch of shots into her--he opened himself up to a lot scrutiny. This story really pushes the limits of Castle Doctrine.

3 Locker  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:04:42pm

You can't kill someone who's obviously no threat to you, period. Additionally when bodies have been dragged to a location they might have been a bit further away than a spot on the floor.

4 EPR-radar  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:18:48pm

If the facts are as reported, then second degree murder would seem to be the reasonable verdict.

The castle doctrine should not excuse execution-style killing of downed opponents.

5 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:36:43pm

This is a double murder. With malice. It's wrong on many levels. What it does not change one bit is our right to sincerely defend ourselves. With a gun. Or whatever it takes that is at hand.

Drunk drivers kill people. We all still have our cars.

6 celticdragon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 6:51:52pm

re: #2 The Questionable Timing of a Flea

When he switched guns for the purpose of killing the second, incapacitated intruder--and emptied a bunch of shots into her--he opened himself up to a lot scrutiny. This story really pushes the limits of Castle Doctrine.

Check this out:

He then shot her several times in the chest with a .22-caliber revolver, dragged her next to her cousin, and with as she gasped for air, fired a shot under her chin 'up into the cranium'.

'Smith described it as "a good clean finishing shot",' according to the compliant, and acknowledged he had fired 'more shots than (he) needed to'.

My God. He literally put a pistol under the chin of a badly wounded 18 year old young woman and pulled the trigger.

I have no problem with self defense and the castle doctrine. This is not a castle doctrine shooting. This is a cold blooded execution of a helpless woman.

7 dragonath  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:05:55pm

How does anyone describe that as "a good clean finishing shot". That's just sadistic straight through.

8 Bubblehead II  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:42:31pm

Bottom line. They broke into his house. They died. Tuff shit.

Next.

9 Bubblehead II  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:57:27pm

Well come on downdingers. Explain yourselves.
You had the balls to hit the button. Now explain why.

10 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 7:59:47pm

re: #8 Bubblehead II

Nope. If he had shot them dead when he originally encountered them it might have been justifiable self defense. But executing a person after they cease to be a threat to you is straight up murder.

And that's if the guy is telling the truth about the course of events. It seems awfully suspicious that he didn't report the break-in/shooting right away, moved the bodies, and police only found out a day later when neighbors called them.

If there is any tough shit going around the homeowner is going to have a healthy serving.

11 Bubblehead II  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:13:33pm

No. They were in the home, they were there to steal. They died in the attempt. Life and DEATH sucks. Live with it.

12 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:25:46pm

So because they were in his home to steal, anything he could do to them is justified? What if they went into his home to steal and he raped and tortured them? Would that be okay?

They went into his home. He has a legal right to defend himself. That's it. Not a right to follow up on that defense by murdering them instead of calling 911.

Life and death does suck. And his life is going to get a lot harder because he didn't just defend himself. He "wanted them dead" and followed through on that desire when they didn't pose any threat.

13 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:29:02pm

re: #11 Bubblehead II

Now your just trolling...
Guy was down flat on the floor after falling down the stairs with a bullet in his hip, he wasn't armed and presented no threat. When asked why he then shot him in the face the home owner told them it was because he wanted him dead.

That is murder under the laws of any state in the country.

Girl was down flat on the floor after falling down the stairs with a bullet in her hip, she wasn't armed and presented no threat. When the home owner tried to shoot her again his rifle jammed so instead he shot her multiple times with a .22 pistol. After dragging her body off into another room where he had already dragged the boys body he noticed she was still alive. So to finish her off he put the pistol under her chin and fired upwards into her brain.

That is murder under the laws of any state in this country.

I'm not saying that he was completely wrong to shoot either one of them the first time although in this case it does not seem like it was necessary for him to do so. I wasn't there so I don't really know what other options he had. But the details of what he did to them that he admitted when questioned by the police is murder in both cases, plain and simple.

There was no legal justification for his actions, just like there is no moral justifications for your statements, except trolling.

14 Grimalkin  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 8:36:05pm

re: #8 Bubblehead II

Sure, he has the right to defend himself, but he went much farther than that, by his own words after he had shot the girl, when she was incapable of causing him or anyone else harm, he went to finish her off instead of calling the police.

'Smith described it as "a good clean finishing shot",' according to the compliant, and acknowledged he had fired 'more shots than (he) needed to'.

Additionally, he never contacted the police, the police came to him to investigate the day after the episode. I have to wonder if he thought he could just hide or dispose of the bodies, the act of a criminal, rather than follow the law and report the incident like the victum he claims to be.

15 celticdragon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:02:30pm

re: #8 Bubblehead II

Bottom line. They broke into his house. They died. Tuff shit.

Next.

Obvious troll is obvious.

16 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:03:37pm

If you killed wounded terrorists like this in Afghanistan, you would be court-martialed. It happens, but that is not an excuse.

17 celticdragon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:05:25pm

re: #13 watching you tiny alien kittens are

A jury is going to have a tough time buying why you would need to shoot unarmed teenagers...an 18 year old female high school student for one...when you happen to be an older male who is not incapacitated or crippled.

This isn't going to trial. His defense is going to be pleading for a plea bargain.

18 celticdragon  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 9:07:12pm

re: #16 Shiplord Kirel

If you killed wounded terrorists like this in Afghanistan, you would be court-martialed. It happens, but that is not an excuse.

Shooting or bayoneting an enemy rendered hors de combat by injury has been against the observed laws of land warfare for the last 200 years.

19 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:06:56pm

re: #9 Bubblehead II

Well come on downdingers. Explain yourselves.
You had the balls to hit the button. Now explain why.

I'm not going to downding. I am going to express where you are terribly wrong. With power comes responsibility. With lethal power comes more and a set of ethics that keep us from hell on earth. The ethic is we use the minimum required violence to get the self defense done.

This self indulgent violence is beyond the pale.

20 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Nov 27, 2012 10:41:59pm

re: #17 celticdragon

A jury is going to have a tough time buying why you would need to shoot unarmed teenagers...an 18 year old female high school student for one...when you happen to be an older male who is not incapacitated or crippled.

This isn't going to trial. His defense is going to be pleading for a plea bargain.

That is why the police in the press conference made a point of stating that both times he had fired at them while they were only visible from the hips down on the stairs. They don't have a "castle doctrine law" so you are only allowed to use the minimum force required to defend your life or property. Since he could not see their hands and saw no weapons he was not legally justified to shoot either one of them.

I hadn't picked up on that when I said above that I didn't know if he was completely wrong for the first shot. I was wrong about that, he was not legally justified, sorry for my error. :(

21 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 2:37:48am

re: #8 Bubblehead II

Bottom line. They broke into his house. They died. Tuff shit.

Next.

They broke into his house, they were incapacitated, and then they were executed. Incapacitating them by shooting them I can understand through fear. Executing them is taking the law into his own hands-- as well as psychopathic. It was unnecessary.

Plenty of people break into places when they're kids and then get the fuck over their shit and get scared straight. Hell, I broke into abandoned churches when I was in college, because they were cool.

This wasn't justice, it was vengeance, and it should be punished because being part of a civilization means you don't get to enact vengeance.

22 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 6:32:56am

They are a pair that had been implicated in other burglaries. They were committing burglary that day.

However, that is not a capitol offence. Not even in Texas.

The homeowner executed them. The girl with a pistol shoved up under her chin after she was incapacitated.

There is no death penalty in Minnesota and for that I am glad.

Instead he will spend the rest of his life, and I pray it is a long and miserable life, looking at four walls knowing the only way out of them will be when he is released into Hell's reception room.

23 Locker  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:17:05am

re: #9 Bubblehead II

Well come on downdingers. Explain yourselves.
You had the balls to hit the button. Now explain why.

Sure. I'll explain why... you're a fucking asshole. Tuff shit. Next.

24 kirkspencer  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 7:53:33am

They supposedly broke in, Bubblehead. The circumstances of this execution make even that worth investigation. From the article I have a broken window and two bodies that were dragged after shooting and again after death. And as already noted he didn't call the police, the police called him. The entire story of what happened is his.

If his story is true it is still too much. As others have noted, he stated he wasn't afraid, he was angry. That turned it from defense of life and property to vigilantism and murder. Trespassing and theft are not capital offenses.

25 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:37:26am

He hit them both with his first shot at them --right?

No reason for a 2nd shot --none whatsoever. He will have a hard time explaining how they were a danger and he needed to shoot again.

Castle Doctrine is for defense not an excuse to kill.

As I've stated many times before, homeowner and business owners need a non-lethal weapon that is as reliable and as effective at stopping a criminal as a firearm. I want my Phaser --there is no reason such a weapon has not been developed and marketed.

We have the brainpower and the science to do so.

26 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:51:39am

re: #3 Locker

You can't kill someone who's obviously no threat to you, period. Additionally when bodies have been dragged to a location they might have been a bit further away than a spot on the floor.

This one is murder, pure and simple. This guy isn't going to be able to claim self-defense, and couldn't even in Florida. An obvious execution shot such as he admitted to firing makes it murder. He's toast, believe that.

27 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 8:55:42am

re: #22 William Barnett-Lewis

They are a pair that had been implicated in other burglaries. They were committing burglary that day.

However, that is not a capitol offence. Not even in Texas.

The homeowner executed them. The girl with a pistol shoved up under her chin after she was incapacitated.

There is no death penalty in Minnesota and for that I am glad.

Instead he will spend the rest of his life, and I pray it is a long and miserable life, looking at four walls knowing the only way out of them will be when he is released into Hell's reception room.

Well, he may still avoid Hell. But he'd have to surrender all his self-rightousness and accept that he did wrong to have a chance at that. But if he dies still refusing to admit his acts were evil, Jesus will say to him:

" Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" - Matthew 25:41 (KJV)

28 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Nov 28, 2012 9:01:29am

re: #11 Bubblehead II

No. They were in the home, they were there to steal. They died in the attempt. Life and DEATH sucks. Live with it.

I'm very much pro-Castle Doctrine, but as even an NRA spokesman would tell you, this wasn't covered under the Castle Doctrine. The right to self defense is not a power of summary execution, which is what Mr. Smith admits to having done. A 'finishing shot' is murder in any part of the US.


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