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1 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 6:54:50am

I haven't finished the article yet but this jumped out.

The 9/11 attack was the most evil thing Geller could imagine.

If this is the most evil thing she can imagine she has a stunted imagination.

2 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 7:03:17am

Okay, finished.

Ms. Geller is an addict. The events on 9/11 gave her a huge hit of fear. She started taking regular hits of that fear because she loved the high it gave her. As it always does that fear turned into hate and anger, which give even richer highs.

Now her whole live is that of an addict; an endless chase after her next hit. And like all long term addicts her cognitive processes are severely damaged. The damage is most likely beyond repair now.

3 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 7:25:48am

re: #2 Romantic Heretic

Okay, finished.

Ms. Geller is an addict. The events on 9/11 gave her a huge hit of fear. She started taking regular hits of that fear because she loved the high it gave her. As it always does that fear turned into hate and anger, which give even richer highs.

Now her whole live is that of an addict; an endless chase after her next hit. And like all long term addicts her cognitive processes are severely damaged. The damage is most likely beyond repair now.

Yup.

She needs that obsession to displace her own weaknesses.

4 Rochi613  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 7:46:53am

“Israeli spy” is a loaded misnomer. He was one of 6 fellow Palestinians who was accused of collaborating with Israel and was publicly executed without trial in a brutal and humiliating way in order to make a point to Palestinians that there is no way but Hamas’ way. And this is Hamas’ way: Savage terror against all who are imagined to stand - or even think or speak - against them, including (especially?) their own co-religionist brethren.

I am not a Pamela Geller fan at all. But she’s not crazy. The rabid jihadism she is afraid of is mainstream where I live, in the Middle East. It saturates the consciousness of the people of every Islam-devoted state (and the non-state of Palestine) surrounding Israel and for beyond.

You may think Israel “earned” this seething hatred because of something it did. That lets you separate what happens to Israel from what could ever happen in America. But no, friends. This insane and violent religiously inspired and perpetuated hatred has nothing to do with anything Israel did (except reclaim its historical homeland as declared by the UN, that is, exist) just as 9/11 had nothing to do with anything America did. It was because that free and glorious country (the one of my birth) exists, and stands for freedoms that Islam considers wickedness and seeks to eliminate in the world.

Ms. Geller is not crazy, but she will be treated like Cassandra, because America still doesn’t get it. Alas.

5 Randall Gross  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 7:50:06am

Yeah. She is crazy because she thinks shariah is taking over america, not the Middle East.

6 Rochi613  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 8:57:49am

re: #5 Randall Gross

I hear you. Nonetheless, that is the jihadists' plan. We may giggle at the idea of a global Islamic Caliphate or think it's insane, but we need to know it is seriously on the mind of billions of people who yearn for its implementation. And their methods and acts often deserve the epithet 'savagery.'

7 MichaelJ  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 9:07:41am

re: #6 Rochi613

We get that, Roichi613, but it's ridiculous (insane, even) to think that Sharia is going to overtake America. It may be on the minds of billions of people, but there are also billions of other people living here that have no intention of letting that ever happen.

8 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 9:09:50am

re: #6 Rochi613

I hear you. Nonetheless, that is the jihadists' plan. We may giggle at the idea of a global Islamic Caliphate or think it's insane, but we need to know it is seriously on the mind of billions of people who yearn for its implementation. And their methods and acts often deserve the epithet 'savagery.'

I can't speak for the Middle East, not only because I don't reside there, but also because I am not intimately involved with the politics and culture there. That said, I don't discount your views, so all I can really speak to is the continental United States. The reason I cannot even fathom the notion that the U.S. could fall prey to the establishment of an Islamist caliphate *here* is because we do cherish our freedom. We like being able to go to the market to buy a six pack of beer, bottle of wine, and pork chops for grilling in the summer. Women and men wear what they please, get educated as they see fit, and enjoy a wide range of lifestyles. As we continue to rally against Christian conservatism, any attempted establishment of a 'caliphate' here would not go unnoticed and would be met with powerful resistance, and our laws protecting our freedom would kick in as well.

9 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 9:15:05am

re: #6 Rochi613

I hear you. Nonetheless, that is the jihadists' plan. We may giggle at the idea of a global Islamic Caliphate or think it's insane, but we need to know it is seriously on the mind of billions of people who yearn for its implementation. And their methods and acts often deserve the epithet 'savagery.'

With about 1.8 billion followers or 26% of earth's population...

So even non-Muslims have the Caliphate on their minds?

I don't see why you say, "I am not a Pamela Geller fan at all." You have a lot in common.

10 Rochi613  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 9:21:47am

That's what lets me sleep at night. I trust the sanity of the American people. But I see Europe succumbing to arabesque strategies that leave Europeans hoisted on their own petard of civil rights. I know the American experience has been different so far, nonetheless, I worry. Out of love.

11 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 9:31:31am

re: #10 Rochi613

That's what lets me sleep at night. I trust the sanity of the American people. But I see Europe succumbing to arabesque strategies that leave Europeans hoisted on their own petard of civil rights. I know the American experience has been different so far, nonetheless, I worry. Out of love.

From the link at the top:

Today, [Geller's] wearing a chic leather jacket over a form-fitting black turtleneck, and her trademark diamond-encrusted "Love" charm is hanging from a necklace.

See what I mean?

12 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 9:36:57am

re: #10 Rochi613

What a load of concern trolling crap. Funny how we're warned that "billions" of slavering, bloodthirsty Muslims are intent on establishing a global caliphate and that they somehow have the means to overthrow a country like the United States, yet they can't manage to dislodge tiny Israel from their midst.

Ah, right, the fifth column. It's happening, we just can't see it. Welcome to Horowitz/Gaffney/Geller/Wingnut world where if you just keep repeating the conspiracy, people will eventually believe it.

13 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 9:50:29am

re: #6 Rochi613

It bothers me that this comment (and the others) gets downdinged.

Geller is a bigot, but that doesn't mean that Islamists are no threat.

Rochi is from the middle east, so I suppose the result of downdingging everyone who says that Islamists are savage and that the problem with Israel is hatred not justice is that we'll just end up banning everyone who knows what is going on there and has experience.

It's fine to draw a line and ding people who go over it, but the line shouldn't be "says something unpleasant about Islamists."

14 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 9:51:54am

And if Rochi turns out to be lying and touched with paranoia, why don't you wait till he actually goes over the line go ding him?

15 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 9:56:18am

re: #4 Rochi613

I am not a Pamela Geller fan at all. But she’s not crazy. The rabid jihadism she is afraid of is mainstream where I live, in the Middle East. It saturates the consciousness of the people of every Islam-devoted state (and the non-state of Palestine) surrounding Israel and for beyond.

Not totally crazy, but she is an extreme bigot. I would call her crazed.

It's true that Islam is the most problematic religion, but she's wrong that every Muslim is a problem, can you see that? She's also wrong in assuming that everyone who isn't an extreme bigot is a traitor.

16 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 9:57:28am

But in his mind, and Ms. Geller's, there is no line between an Islamist and a Muslim. They are exactly the same set of people.

And Islamists make up a small subset of the Muslim world. Muslims are no more monolithic than Christianity. Plus to believe that Islamists pose an existential threat to the West is on par with believing the dog headed aliens from Uranus pose the same threat.

The Islamists might, very occasionally, kill or hurt a lot of people. Overthrow the governments of the West and replace them with a system based on sharia spread across three continents? That's the sort of thing only an addict like Ms. Geller would believe

17 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:05:14am

re: #13 stabby

It bothers me that this comment (and the others) gets downdinged.

You'll get over it.

Geller is a bigot, but that doesn't mean that Islamists are no threat.

Who said Islamists are not a threat? They cause plenty of trouble around the world, but their impending takeover of the U.S. is absurd.

Rochi is from the middle east, so I suppose the result of downdingging everyone who says that Islamists are savage and that the problem with Israel is hatred not justice is that we'll just end up banning everyone who knows what is going on there and has experience.

Straw man.Try again.

It's fine to draw a line and ding people who go over it, but the line shouldn't be "says something unpleasant about Islamists."

Another straw man. People ding as they see fit. The only rule that almost everyone follows in most situations is that if you're going to down-ding you should state why. You don't like the down-dings. Fine, you're entitled to say so, but don't expect anyone to abide by your rules.

18 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:10:01am

re: #16 Romantic Heretic

I still follow the postings at [Link: hurryupharry.org...] (currently down) which still does what LGF used to do years ago, expose Islamists and argue about Islamism.

One of the sane and intelligent commenters was in the middle of some complex argument and I think made the point that in his experience Muslim women in the UK all oppose Israel even if they know nothing about it, because there is a principle that one always supports Muslims against non-Muslims, everything else being equal.

Muslims in the middle east may all be at each others throats, may not be monolithic at all, but that doesn't mean that there's NOTHING to saying that they support as a block.

Polls say that about 40% of British Muslims support the introduction of Sharia. It's a foolish attitude but that's still a very large block.

As for Israel, the position of Israel in the Middle East is that of a scapegoat. Let me quote something I once said to someone who feared WW3 (out of google's cache):

One thing people forget to mention in these conversations is the extent to which Jew hatred and jihad serves extraneous purposes less dark than say reclaiming the waqf and fulfilling the prophesy of genocide…

Islam is set up rather badly to promote warfare between Muslims and everyone even ever so slightly different from one’s own sect. Israel is a very welcome diversion from the need to kill one’s neighbors in the middle east. Everyone, different sects of Muslims and even Christians in the middle east get drawn into the comradery of hating the Jews together.

The war on Israel is the only unifying force the middle east has, the only safety valve, and the safest past time.

In this sense the war on Israel isn’t totally serious. If it got serious, if it ever ended, it would no longer serve the purpose of bringing countries together and forestalling every neighborhood becoming a killing ground.

Israel is the most timid, most civilized enemy that one could have in the middle east, and everyone there thinks God wants them to have enemies.

So if you think of killing Jews as a harmless, simple pastime that people engage in for fun entertainment and comradery, then maybe you can see that people don’t necessarily want WW3.

19 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:10:52am

re: #13 stabby

It bothers me that this comment (and the others) gets downdinged.

Geller is a bigot, but that doesn't mean that Islamists are no threat.

Rochi is from the middle east, so I suppose the result of downdingging everyone who says that Islamists are savage and that the problem with Israel is hatred not justice is that we'll just end up banning everyone who knows what is going on there and has experience.

It's fine to draw a line and ding people who go over it, but the line shouldn't be "says something unpleasant about Islamists."

Rochi613 is a she. She's already crossed a line by posting a Page linked to a Geller associate. She has not been banned, obviously. There are other people here also who know what is going on there and have experience, and they aren't banned either. Is there someone who has been banned that you have in mind?

20 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:11:34am

re: #14 stabby

And if Rochi turns out to be lying and touched with paranoia, why don't you wait till he actually goes over the line go ding him?

Supporting Geller's insanity IS going over the line. Rochi is a she, Rachel, according to the comment she made at the source article at the Village Voice. Her comment #4 here was verbatim.

21 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:12:00am

re: #19 wrenchwench

well I don't know how karma works but I assume that if one gets negative karma for long enough one gets autobanned.

22 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:13:24am

re: #21 stabby

well I don't know how karma works but I assume that if one gets negative karma for long enough one gets autobanned.

If you don't know how it works, why do you make an unsupported assumption?

You haven't met SpaceJesus, have you.

23 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:13:53am

re: #20 CuriousLurker

Supporting Geller's insanity IS going over the line. Rochi is a she, Rachel, according to the comment she made at the source article at the Village Voice. Her comment #4 here was verbatim.

Interesting.

/Spock eyebrow

24 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:16:21am

re: #21 stabby

well I don't know how karma works but I assume that if one gets negative karma for long enough one gets autobanned.

You're clearly unfamiliar with Buck then. You really should try to figure out how things work here before making assumptions and/or telling the rest of us what we should or shouldn't do.

25 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:17:06am

re: #20 CuriousLurker

well if she lives in Israel where one is faced with people who celebrate every time someone fires a rocket at a jewish neighborhood or blows up a bus full of poor Jews, where someone who suffocated a two year old Israeli child is a hero (and Lebanon went to war to get him released from prison and now celebrates him on national TV), maybe in her case you can forgive her for saying that Geller isn't crazy.

26 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:20:21am

In any case I think this about dinging:

You should upding for making an intelligent, insightful comment
You should downding for making a stupid comment or going over the line

But if someone makes an argument that's defensible or intelligent but you disagree, how about if you argue rather than ding?

27 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:22:15am

re: #26 stabby

In any case I think this about dinging:

You should upding for making an intelligent, insightful comment
You should downding for making a stupid comment or going over the line

But if someone makes an argument that's defensible or intelligent but you disagree, how about if you argue rather than ding?

How about if I do both? Or whatever I feel like doing?

28 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:23:48am

re: #25 stabby

well if she lives in Israel where one is faced with people who celebrate every time someone fires a rocket at a jewish neighborhood or blows up a bus full of poor Jews, where someone who suffocated a two year old Israeli child is a hero (and Lebanon went to war to get him released for prison and now celebrates him on national TV), maybe in her case you can forgive her for saying that Geller isn't crazy.

Nice try, but no, I can't. I can understand how such things drive some people over the edge, but that's still no excuse for promoting Geller's insanity & rabid hatred. As a matter of fact, that's a good way to get banned.

29 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:25:10am

re: #28 CuriousLurker

I'm saying that Rochi has a real reason, she's not "driven over the edge"

30 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:26:05am

re: #26 stabby

In any case I think this about dinging:

You should upding for making an intelligent, insightful comment
You should downding for making a stupid comment or going over the line

But if someone makes an argument that's defensible or intelligent but you disagree, how about if you argue rather than ding?

I second wrenchwench's #27.

31 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:27:13am

re: #29 stabby

I'm saying that Rochi has a real reason, she's not "driven over the edge"

Supporting Geller's insane conspiracy theories is over the edge.

32 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:33:37am

re: #27 wrenchwench

How about if I do both? Or whatever I feel like doing?

Oopsie, she down-dinged you for that. Apparently that counts as either "making a stupid comment or going over the line". // *headdesk*

33 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:35:25am

re: #32 CuriousLurker

No I did it out of irony. Because he agrees with doing so.

I will downding any comment that's in favor of frivolous downdinging because doing so is frivolous.

34 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:37:01am

re: #33 stabby

No I did it out of irony. Because he agrees with doing so.

I will downding any comment that's in favor of frivolous downding because doing so is frivolous.

I didn't say frivolous. And the 'wench' part of my nic correctly implies femaleness. (It incorrectly implies youth.)

35 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:38:06am

re: #18 stabby

Do you seriously think the people here need you to school them on the dangers of radical Islam, when that very subject has been its reason for being for over 11 years?

36 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:40:24am

re: #22 wrenchwench

LOLOL

37 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:43:31am

re: #25 stabby

You are pissing on the wrong person.

CL is probably more outraged at terror and Islamist excesses than you are (I'm being nice. You can take that to the bank).

Pity you don't take the time to ask or clarify.

38 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:45:03am

re: #35 CuriousLurker

"Do you seriously think the people here need you to school them on the dangers of radical Islam, when that very subject used to be its reason for being until 2 years ago?"

fixed it for you

Charles has a habit of being right early, before everyone else.

I think he stopped this blog from being anti-jihadi because he could see the Republicans on this blog going full metal bigot. Geller used to post here you know.

It took me a few years to realize that he was right.

At this point the right has adopted anti-muslim paranoia to an amazing degree. Posting the constant crimes of Islamists would be counter-productive in an american context...

One of the lessons of Harry's Place is that exposing the crimes of a group attracts haters and really crazed paranoids. Even if you ban the haters you're still left with a comment section full of paranoids who have to be fought. It's very unpleasant.

39 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:48:31am

Harry's place has been down for 3 days.

I suspect the reason that it's down this long is that no one has much enthusiasm left for a blog who's comment section is mostly Fox News loving British wingnuts. No one who posts above the line is a wingnut.

But I'm sad to see it go, mostly because of one very very good writer who's handle is mettaculture, who has only one guest post I think but occasionally comments, and is more worth reading than anyone else there.

40 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:48:52am

re: #33 stabby

No I did it out of irony. Because he agrees with doing so.

I will downding any comment that's in favor of frivolous downding because doing so is frivolous.

Oh, I see, you simply forgot to mention the "ironic" and "frivolous" counter-ding categories. Phew, good thing you explained that otherwise I might have thought your principles were...flexible. You know, like Newt Gingrich saying that since Saudi Arabia doesn't allow churches, then the U.S. shouldn't allow mosques, i.e. "Let's be just like those people we criticize!"

41 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:52:08am

Following one extreme with another isn't the answer and that's why Geller is such a revolting person and a fanatic. Look at who she associates with in Europe, neo-Nazis. I know the dangers of radical Islam. I grew up not that far from the Pentagon and I've had friends that have served in the military in the post 9/11 Days. What I oppose is the attempt by Geller and her allies to make every Muslim to out to be a jihadist. It's a sickening thing to do and it comes from the worst excesses of American scapegoating going back to the interment of the Japanese during WWII or the conspiracy mongreling about Catholic and Jewish immigrants last century. And I'll say it bluntly but the anti-Shariah industry in this country is a bullshit sham. Most of the states banning Shariah law are states that even if their Muslim population doubled would still have a small percentage of Muslims. Geller insinuates that this president is secretly implementing Shariah Law. This is a president who loves his pork sandwiches and quite frankly and I use the term lovingly is probably our biggest beer snob ever to be president. There's a way to combat radical Islam and Pamela Geller and her allies' way is not the way to do it.

42 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:52:43am

Islam is the most problematic religion.

The current radical form of Islam that exists in many countries is really problematic. But shit, the insane Christain creationism is keeping the US-- and, basically, the world-- from addressing AGW. That's also pretty fucking problematic.

Islam isn't special. It's just another religion.

43 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:54:21am

I love Rochi's stupid fucking comment "You may think Israel “earned” this seething hatred because of something it did. "

Who the fuck is she talking to? Who here thinks Israel 'earned' the seething hatred?

The goddamn figments of her imagination, that's who.

44 jaunte  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:56:47am

re: #41 HappyWarrior

And I'll say it bluntly but the anti-Shariah industry in this country is a bullshit sham. Most of the states banning Shariah law are states that even if their Muslim population doubled would still have a small percentage of Muslims.

The 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, affirming a lower court ruling preventing Oklahoma's "sharia ban" from taking effect:

Oklahoma's asserted interest is a valid state concern. But this general statement alone is not sufficient to establish a compelling interest for purposes of this case. Appellants do not identify any actual problem the challenged amendment seeks to solve. Indeed, they admitted at the preliminary injunction hearing that they did not know of even a single instance where an Oklahoma court had applied Sharia law or used the legal precepts of other nations or cultures, let alone that such applications or uses had resulted in concrete problems in Oklahoma. See Awad, 754 F. Supp. 2d at 1308; Aplt. App. Vol. 1 at 67-68. Given the lack of evidence of any concrete problem, any harm Appellants seek to remedy with the proposed amendment is speculative at best and cannot support a compelling interest (emphasis added).

45 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:58:44am

re: #38 stabby

If you think this blog has stopped being anti-jihadi you're sadly mistaken. Just because the primary focus has changed to the extreme right nutjobs that have taken over the GOP hardly means that terrorism and the threat of radical Islam are no longer it's primary reason for existence.

How many front page articles do you see every day that don't mention radical Islam or terrorism in at least a few comments? Damned few. Don't believe me? go check for yourself.

46 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:02:10am

re: #44 jaunte

The 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, affirming a lower court ruling preventing Oklahoma's "sharia ban" from taking effect:

It really is a sham. And I think the best case of that is looking at where it's happening and when. Did it happen in the Bush years? No, it did not but it sure did right after we elected a Black man who has some Muslim family members and who has crazy nuts believe he is a secret Muslim. I'll say it here. It's the same crap mindset that starts stuff like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

47 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:03:22am

Since we're talking about reality here, consider this:

Blaming Islam and Muslims for terror and other outrages is outrageous.

That is the same as saying the Nazis and others were right in blaming Judaism and Jews for all the worlds ills.

Blaming an entire group for the (inevitable) sins of a few is bigotry and racism, period, If you justify that kind of bigotry don't complain. when it is thrown back at you.

The Arab world, and for that matter much of the Muslim world are the biggest victims of dysfunctional, tyrannical and oppressive leaders in modern times, maybe of all time. This is no different than the Germans who force fed Nazism and succumbed to it's evil.

We cannot clean the political state of Islam anymore than we were able to clean Germans of the Nazism that was forced upon them by an evil regime. That endeavor must come from within. It is (tragically) a painful, long and difficult endeavor.

Blaming the religion of Islam for terror and violence today is like blaming the Christian religion for the excesses of the Crusades. Both were political expressions wrapped in religious garb.

Focus the attention where it needs to be focused, not on the easy phony targets.

Got it?

48 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:04:27am

re: #4 Rochi613

Yes, Pamela Geller is crazy. And not just a little crazy - she's deranged with paranoid hatred. If you think people like her and Robert Spencer and their disgusting hate groups are helping Israel, you are sadly, pathetically deluded.

49 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:05:24am

re: #48 Charles Johnson

No truer words.

50 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:05:27am

re: #43 Obdicut

I love Rochi's stupid fucking comment "You may think Israel “earned” this seething hatred because of something it did. "

Who the fuck is she talking to? Who here thinks Israel 'earned' the seething hatred?

The goddamn figments of her imagination, that's who.

If you don't think that Israel hatred isn't the default position many many many places, then you have no experience arguing about the middle east.

Here comment is very called for, unfortunately. I've dealt with that for years.

51 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:05:37am

re: #43 Obdicut

I love Rochi's stupid fucking comment "You may think Israel “earned” this seething hatred because of something it did. "

Who the fuck is she talking to? Who here thinks Israel 'earned' the seething hatred?

The goddamn figments of her imagination, that's who.

See. #20. She recycles.

52 Randall Gross  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:10:58am

re: #14 stabby

And if Rochi turns out to be lying and touched with paranoia, why don't you wait till he actually goes over the line go ding him?

Rochi is very obviously an accomplished liar. She has done so in the past, and does so blazingly right here:

but we need to know it is seriously on the mind of billions of people who yearn for its implementation.

Billions? There are only 1.5-1.8 Billion Muslims on the planet depending on whose estimate you use. Saying Billions is a blatant lie, and discounts every moderate Muslim in the world. It propagates not only the hater's message, like Geller's, but also the Takfirist agenda of Al Qaeda, because they are basically saying that you can't be a true Muslim unless you follow Ayman Al Zawahiri.

53 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:13:29am

Islamists have killed a lot of people I know who are Muslim. In fact, Islamist terror organization overwhelmingly target other Muslims. Pam Gellar does not care. My Sufi and Ahmadi cousins who fled Pakistan to avoid being raped, bombed, and shot are just as much a part of creeping Shariah as the perpetrators. Ever single post and "analysis" by Pam and her bigot buddies blames these victims or vanishes them to achieve their kulturkampf puppet show.

Differentiate between acts performed by Pushtun separatists and Taliban? Why bother! They're brown people with an evil religion. If a Muslim commits a crime, it's because of their inherent Muslim-ness, not because they're individuals or warped by circumstance or fucked up by regional cultural values that pre-dated Islam! It's not a coincidence that Pam recycles tropes from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion: she doesn't want a rational, human-intelligence approach to caution about Islamism, she wants irrational suspicion and anger.

And it's working. People who have no fucking idea what Shariah is now only know the definition put forth by Pam and friends; taqiyya used to be an obscure Ismaili Shia concept, but now it's an integral component in a world conspiracy of secret Muslims. None of this will making fighting actual Islamist terrorism easier, because it's substituting moral panic for intelligence gathering and turning allies (even tentative, suspect ones) into foes.

And worst of all, it's exactly what the Islamists want. The Taliban and Al Qaeda are first and foremost attempting to coax and coerce other Muslims into seeing the world their way. The vast majority of their resources, and the vast majority of the atrocities, are directed at Muslim people within countries that are predominantly Muslim.

54 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:15:15am

re: #42 Obdicut

Islam is the most problematic religion.

The current radical form of Islam that exists in many countries is really problematic. But shit, the insane Christain creationism is keeping the US-- and, basically, the world-- from addressing AGW. That's also pretty fucking problematic.

Islam isn't special. It's just another religion.

Christianity can be bad and Islam can be worse at the same time.

Look, get a Koran and a collection of hadiths, then read them. Then read the bible. Ask yourself what percent of the verses on the Islamic side promote hatred or oppression or war or just read like hate speech.

The (repeated numerous times in Bukhari) hadith calling for extermination of the Jews is so bad that I remember when a University hosting a database of Hadiths decided to delete the copies of that one as hate speech. And that collection used to be top of google ...

55 Randall Gross  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:19:15am

re: #53 The Prayerful Consideration of a Flea

Right on. Pam Geller is one of the best emmisaries that Ayman has.

56 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:22:04am

It's pretty astounding to me that after everything I've posted about Pamela Geller and her sick conspiracy theories and rabid bigotry, we still have people showing up to defend her.

I notice in this article she tries to pretend she wasn't one of main pushers of the Birther insanity. This is a blatant lie, like almost everything she says.

57 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:22:18am

I really don't think anyone denies that radical Islam is a problem or violence done in the name of Islam is horrible. Where most people here have a problem is when all Muslims are scapegoated and that's what Geller, Spencer, Gaffney, and others engage in. And it does not help Israel or the Israeli people when they do that. It does not help anyone except for them because they care more about stirring up hatred than actually doing something about radical Islam. They attack this president. Call him a supporter of radical Islam even though he's done more than any American president against Islamic terrorism.

58 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:22:27am

re: #50 stabby

If you don't think that Israel hatred isn't the default position many many many places, then you have no experience arguing about the middle east.

Here comment is very called for, unfortunately. I've dealt with that for years.

Did you read some other comment other than mine? Because your reply makes no fucking sense. Try reading it again.

Who the fuck is she talking to? Who here thinks Israel 'earned' the seething hatred?

59 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:22:35am

Sigh for those who keep tabs open and just hit "new comments" I edited a couple words about promoting war to that last comment.

60 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:23:58am

re: #54 stabby

Christianity can be bad and Islam can be worse at the same time.

Look, get a Koran and a collection of hadiths, then read them. Then read the bible. Ask yourself what percent of the verses on the Islamic side promote hatred or oppression or just read like hate speech.

The (repeated numerous times in Bukhari) hadith calling for extermination of the Jews is so bad that I remember when a University hosting a database of Hadiths decided to delete the copies of that one as hate speech. And that collection used to be top of google ...

So, if I go out and buy an English translation of the Torah and Talmud, then I'll be qualified to deeply understand the whole of Judaism and pass judgement on it and all of it's adherents, despite the fact that I don't speak Hebrew and have zero training in rabbinic law, rabbinic literature, or Jewish philosophy, right?

61 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:24:18am

re: #54 stabby

Christianity can be bad and Islam can be worse at the same time.

Look, get a Koran and a collection of hadiths, then read them. Then read the bible. Ask yourself what percent of the verses on the Islamic side promote hatred or oppression or war or just read like hate speech.

It really doesn't matter. There's shit-all in the bible about abortion, and yet many Christians are fanatical about being anti-abortion. Religions aren't even really vaguely related to the texts that inspire them, as long as the texts are of sufficient length.

Your argument can just as well be used to show that Judaism is far, far more bloodthirsty than Christianity. Do you really want to go down that road, where Christianity-- Christianity of the crusades, of the inquisition, of the reconquista, of the pogroms, of the Holocaust-- is held up to be better than Islam and Judaism because Jesus was kind of a hippy?

62 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:25:02am

re: #54 stabby

Christianity can be bad and Islam can be worse at the same time.

Look, get a Koran and a collection of hadiths, then read them. Then read the bible. Ask yourself what percent of the verses on the Islamic side promote hatred or oppression or war or just read like hate speech.

The (repeated numerous times in Bukhari) hadith calling for extermination of the Jews is so bad that I remember when a University hosting a database of Hadiths decided to delete the copies of that one as hate speech. And that collection used to be top of google ...

You sound like Robert Spencer.

63 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:27:10am

re: #58 Obdicut

Well if you comment on European blogs, you can pretty much assume that everyone from center to left has seething hatred for Israel.

And it's not always easy to know why people say what they do in an argument in text, where there is no tone of voice or facial expression. Misreading opposition as hatred is likely especially when bigoted assumptions are more common than a balanced view.

The British attitude is also that people enforce conformity. So stepping out of the groupthink (which IS anti Israeli) gets you noticed and punished

64 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:27:35am

re: #54 stabby

The (repeated numerous times in Bukhari) hadith calling for extermination of the Jews is so bad that I remember when a University hosting a database of Hadiths decided to delete the copies of that one as hate speech. And that collection used to be top of google ...

And yet, for hundreds of years, Jews were part of Muslim kingdoms and empires while they were persecuted, killed, and tortured in Christian kingdoms. It's almost as though Muslims weren't Jew-hating golems that follow the instructions of the worst Hadiths you can cherrypick.

Islam and Christianity don't just exist in the present moment. They've been around for a long time. Christianity was (somewhat) reformed by the Enlightenment; it didn't come from the religion itself, but from secular pressure outside it. Yet, for some fucking reason, you think that this makes Christianity better.

65 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:27:59am

re: #62 wrenchwench

That was worth a double ding.

Stop agreeing with me. People will think we like each other.
///

66 Randall Gross  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:28:36am

Making sweeping statements about groups of people and treating them like generic categories is a leading indicator of bigotry.

67 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:29:01am

re: #63 stabby

Well if you comment on European blogs, you can pretty much assume that everyone from center to left has seething hatred for Israel.

Nope. A lot have ignorance of the situation, a lot more have fallen for propaganda and have antipathy, but most Europeans don't have 'seething hatred' for Israel.

The British attitude is also that people enforce conformity. So stepping out of the groupthink (which IS anti Israeli) gets you noticed and punished

Oh for fuck's sake. I lived in the UK for two years, stop telling me fairy tales about groupthink.

68 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:29:02am

re: #63 stabby

Well if you comment on European blogs, you can pretty much assume that everyone from center to left has seething hatred for Israel.

And it's not always easy to know why people say what they do in an argument in text, where there is no tone of voice or facial expression. Misreading opposition as hatred is likely especially when bigoted assumptions are more common than a balanced view.

The British attitude is also that people enforce conformity. So stepping out of the groupthink (which IS anti Israeli) gets you noticed and punished

He's not asking about the British blogs. He's asking about here as in Little Green Footballs. Really, if you think people here hate Israel and blame it when it gets attacked. You're at the wrong place and talking to the wrong people.

69 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:29:07am

re: #60 CuriousLurker

The mass of people don't get their attitudes from scholarly study. And emotions come from simple words and models not from intellectual ones.

So if it reads like hate speech, then it will effect a huge number of people as hate speech.

70 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:32:36am

Congrats, Stabby, you win the 'Largest consecutive number of really bone-achingly stupid fucking posts' award.

Let's judge all religions by their texts! Wait, Judaism starts to look pretty shady if we do that, and Christians act nothing like Christianity. Well, we'll shovel in an exception for the oral law in Judaism, and just pretend that Christianity reformed itself and that those centuries of slaughter and oppression in the name of God didn't happen. Christianity is totally a better religion than all the others because Jesus was all about love, man. That's why, despite zero mentions of abortion in the New Testament, such a huge number of Christians are anti-abortion fanatics.

71 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:33:06am

re: #69 stabby

The mass of people don't get their attitudes from scholarly study. And emotions come from simple words and models not from intellectual ones.

So if it reads like hate speech, then it will effect a huge number of people as hate speech.

You now qualify for downdings just for being a dumbass.

72 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:34:03am

re: #69 stabby

What on earth makes you believe what is taught in religious schools of other faiths is any different when discussing 'the other'.

We both know that to be an absolute truth.

The difference is in the political environment.

Remember Kahane?

73 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:38:07am

re: #69 stabby

The mass of people don't get their attitudes from scholarly study. And emotions come from simple words and models not from intellectual ones.

So if it reads like hate speech, then it will effect a huge number of people as hate speech.

My point exactly. How difficult do you think it would be for me, as a layman, to find passages in the Torah/Old Testament/New Testament that read like hate speech? How about hateful "fatwas" (I don't know what the equivalent word is in Hebrew for juristic rulings in Judaism) by rabbis? I have some on file, shall I drag them out? What about the Kahanists? They preach hate to the masses and claim to be following Judaism as well. Are they?

74 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:40:38am

re: #70 Obdicut

Let's judge all religions by their texts!

And yet, Mohammad's own words and supposed actions will always have an effect. They can't be ignored by Muslims.

Look, I'm not taking a simple position.

But attempting to rewrite the world into simple stories where there will never be trouble, where you never say anything bad about a religion, where you pretend all problems away isn't the answer to paranoia.

Not everyone is capable of balance, but we have to tell the truth even when telling the truth has bad consequences along with good ones.

I'm not trying to "judge religions" in these comments, if I did I'd rant about how they're all indefensible. I'm saying these texts have effects out in the real world and will continue to.

Do you know what I think the solution to a lot of these problems is:
Answer I think there is no solution.

I'm not fighting for anything except talking honestly.

75 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:41:36am

re: #74 stabby

Amalek?

Ring a bell?

76 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:42:37am

re: #74 stabby

And yet, Mohammad's own words and supposed actions will always have an effect. They can't be ignored by Muslims.

Poison Dwarf.

77 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:45:03am

re: #74 stabby

Look, I'm not taking a simple position.

Yeah, you are. You're taking the position that Islam is bad because Mohammed says do this stuff. And Christianity is better, because CHrist says other stuff.

You choose to ignore that Christians don't do the things that Christ said to do, and they do a lot of other things in Christ's name that are just completely made up.

You ignore that the Tanakh has just as much scary evil shit in it as the Koran-- you didn't even attempt to engage with that point.

You really are trying to be as simplistic as fuck. Stop treating us like we're brain-dead. Make an actual argument that doesn't fall apart at the first sign of logic.

78 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:45:24am

re: #72 researchok

What on earth makes you believe what is taught in religious schools of other faiths is any different when discussing 'the other'.

We both know that to be an absolute truth.

The difference is in the political environment.

Remember Kahane?

Sure, but if it's in the text, spoken by the main prophet and spoken often then the situation is worse than if it isn't. Then hate will be taught more commonly.

I used to know a former Muslim from Pakistan. I can tell that he would not be welcome on this blog. He told a lot of stories about his upbringing and schooling that you would not be happy to hear.

I know that it's hard to find the right place to draw the line, and you keep having to move that line as you learn more.

But you're drawing that line too close right now.

79 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:47:54am

re: #78 stabby

Why do you think he'd be unwelcome? Do you think people here don't know that many Muslims are brought up with fanatical hatred of the West, of Israel?

Why do you need to pretend this?

80 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:49:02am

re: #78 stabby

I can tell that he would not be welcome on this blog.

You've already shown us your poor judgement on that score.

81 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:49:23am

re: #74 stabby

Look, I'm not taking a simple position.

Yeah, clearly it's difficult for us simple-minded folk to keep up. //

But attempting to rewrite the world into simple stories where there will never be trouble, where you never say anything bad about a religion, where you pretend all problems away isn't the answer to paranoia.

Yet another straw man. Please provide links to comments where anyone here has ever said you should "never say anything bad about a religion".

I'm not fighting for anything except talking honestly.

No, you're fighting to defend you position no matter what. You cherry-pick which points you want to answer and toss out straw men in a lame attempt to divert attention from those you don't.

82 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:49:47am

re: #80 wrenchwench

You've already shown us your poor judgement on that score.

It's possible he might be not welcome, if he said shit as stupid as what Stabby is.

83 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:49:49am

re: #77 Obdicut

You choose to ignore that Christians don't do the things that Christ said to do, and they do a lot of other things in Christ's name that are just completely made up.

I never ignore that, you just assume I do.

As I just said, it's a worse situation when it's in the text than when it isn't.

Christians can teach a lot of horrible things that aren't in the Bible, but they're less likely to, and those ideas can easily go out of style over a generation.

Also Islam is more literal than Christianity, and that's because of a rant Mohamad went on against Christians and Jews claiming that they had falsified the word of God and that particular rant went into extreme hate speech. He basically said that God hates hates hates people who change the text.
Sigh

84 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:50:36am

re: #81 CuriousLurker

No, I'm fighting to hold a delicate position, and you never bothered to figure out what my position is before you attacked it.

85 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:51:08am

re: #74 stabby

You know what? I feel for you.

When all is said and done, you are just as indoctrinated as those you claim to oppose.

Why not take a step back and look for clarity?

I'm no fan of Palestinian leaders, their dysfunction and certainly not their violence (a nice way of saying I hate the current reality).

That said, how do you believe your characterizations (and thus subsequent behaviors) will fix the situation? What positive elements have you added into the equation? I would say exactly as many as have Hamas and even the PA.

You are engaged in a war of words when the real battle is a war for the liberation of the Palestinians- and the rest of the Arab world- from their broken leaders who have created broken societies.

You will not create a new world if you denigrate everything they have. It is far better to denigrate what was taken from them- their dignity, taken by tyrants. Give them back their dignity and see what happens.

Broadcast the truth 24/7 and not even the 'religious' leaders paid by the state and calling for death will be able to counter that.

86 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:51:31am

re: #83 stabby

I never ignore that, you just assume I do.

Really? Point to the comment where you dealt with that, then.

As I just said, it's a worse situation when it's in the text than when it isn't.

Have you not read the Tanakh?

Christians can teach a lot of horrible things that aren't in the Bible, but they're less likely to, and those ideas can easily go out of style over a generation.

Hi, I'd like to refer you to the entire history of Christianity, which shows that you're wrong.

Also Islam is more literal than Christianity

The Sufis are literal?

Sigh

You sound tired. Maybe you should stop flailing around like an imbecile.

87 Randall Gross  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:51:50am

re: #84 stabby

What's the position? I"ve seen you move the goal posts fifteen times. Please state the position that you are trying to defend. Concisely if you would.

88 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:51:59am

re: #76 wrenchwench

Reality is full of poison.

The problem is to face the horror without going nuts or overboard like Geller does.

89 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:52:16am

re: #84 stabby

No, I'm fighting to hold a delicate position, and you never bothered to figure out what my position is before you attacked it.

How does your position differ from that of Robert Spencer?

90 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:52:49am

re: #83 stabby

I never ignore that, you just assume I do.

As I just said, it's a worse situation when it's in the text than when it isn't.

Christians can teach a lot of horrible things that aren't in the Bible, but they're less likely to, and those ideas can easily go out of style over a generation.

Also Islam is more literal than Christianity, and that's because of a rant Mohamad went on against Christians and Jews claiming that they had falsified the word of God and that particular rant went into extreme hate speech. He basically said that God hates hates hates people who change the text.
Sigh

WTF? There's a reason Christians and Muslims get the status of Dhimmi al Kitab, and it's not because God hates them.

91 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:55:02am

re: #78 stabby

I'm sure your friend is a very nice fellow, but asking a former Muslim about Islam is like asking a former Jew or Christian about their former respective faiths.

There are plenty of pious and religious Muslims who see their faith in very different ways than is portrayed on the six o'clock new.

That would be far more instructive.

92 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:56:45am

re: #70 Obdicut

Congrats, Stabby, you win the 'Largest consecutive number of really bone-achingly stupid fucking posts' award.

re: #71 wrenchwench

You now qualify for downdings just for being a dumbass.

Indeed. I've had my fill of trying to engage with dumb-assery for the day. I should know better by now.

93 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:56:59am

re: #90 The Prayerful Consideration of a Flea

I don't feel like looking up the rant, but there's no contradiction here.

Muslims are enjoined against any changes to Islam because of God's reaction to the falsification that resulted in Christianity and Judaism not being Islam.

94 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 11:58:42am

re: #93 stabby

And Jews are forbidden for altering a single word in the Tanakh.

And there are shitloads of 'biblical literalist' Christians.

95 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:02:22pm
Indeed. I've had my fill of trying to engage with dumb-assery for the day. I should know better by now.

Careful argument is hard and tedious as is trying to find a reasonable position in a hard situation.

I think none of us want to take the time right now, I have to get up, make breakfast and get ready for a doctor's appointment.

The fact is that this blog is in a war with paranoids, and that was my argument for years - beating down the nuts. BUT but, it's better to do that by asking for a nuanced reaction to reality than to do it by trying to deny the problematic facts.

It's better that people can debate the painful facts out loud and that reactions be kept reasonable by argument than that we keep the peace by not ever saying the things that set off the paranoids and idiots.

96 Randall Gross  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:04:47pm

I'm thinking Stabby is probably part of that "Nee Moskee" crowd. I'm not sure which faction however.

97 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:05:40pm

re: #95 stabby

Careful argument is hard and tedious as is trying to find a reasonable position in a hard situation.

That doesn't excuse the completely flaccid, bigoted piece of ahistorical crap that you trotted out and called an argument.

As a Jew, this attempt to rehabilitate Christianity and claim that it's so much better than Islam really fucking rankles me. How goddamn many of my ancestors were killed by Christians? I know I had ancestors that died in the reconquista, I know i had more that died during the inquisition, and I know that I had more that died in the Holocaust.

There are fucking graveyards of my ancestors murdered by Christians in the name of Christ, and yet Islam is the big scary evillest of all religions because very fucking historically recently it's become highly radicalized.

Fuck that noise.

98 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:08:09pm

re: #95 stabby

BUT but, it's better to do that by asking for a nuanced reaction to reality than to do it by trying to deny the problematic facts.

It's better that people can debate the painful facts out loud and that reactions be kept reasonable by argument than that we keep the peace by not ever saying the things that set off the paranoids and idiots.

Your 'facts' lack veracity. That's what's painful.

99 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:09:46pm

re: #97 Obdicut

I'm not trying to rehabilitate Christianity at all.

Saying A is better in some ways than B doesn't imply that A is good in any way. That's a logical fallacy.

100 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:10:46pm

re: #96 Randall Gross

I don't know what "Nee Moskee" means. You're making odd assumptions.

101 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:11:33pm

If you mean that you think I'm with the bigots who opposed the mosque in New York, you couldn't be more wrong!

102 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:12:08pm

re: #98 wrenchwench

I would add the word 'context' to that sentence.

103 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:12:13pm

re: #99 stabby

I'm not trying to rehabilitate Christianity at all.

Saying A is better in some ways than B doesn't imply that A is good in any way. That's a logical fallacy.

Okay, then: Saying Christianity is better than Islam is just as fucking stupid, for the same reasons.

Hey, let's do a review of questions and points you've dodged, just for kicks:

1. Have you read the Tanakh?
2. The Tanakh says a lot of scary shit too, and it's forbidden to alter it.
3. Christ commands his followers to do a lot of shit, and they ignore him.*
4. Christians have killed boatloads more Jews than Muslims have.
5. It wasn't Christianity that reformed itself, it was the influence of the Enlightenment.
6. There are plenty of non-literal Muslims.

*apparently this doesn't matter to you because Christ never said "I really mean this, guys", so Christians feel fine ignoring Christ's commandments.
Etc. etc.

104 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:13:25pm

re: #95 stabby

It's better that people can debate the painful facts out loud and that reactions be kept reasonable by argument than that we keep the peace by not ever saying the things that set off the paranoids and idiots.

ROFLMAO, yeah, because everyone knows that the lizards here tiptoe around on eggshells to avoid arguments. Your condescending tone towards the posters here is not only annoying, it's delusional. You've officially jumped the shark.

105 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:14:44pm

re: #10 Rochi613

That's what lets me sleep at night. I trust the sanity of the American people. But I see Europe succumbing to arabesque strategies that leave Europeans hoisted on their own petard of civil rights. I know the American experience has been different so far, nonetheless, I worry. Out of love.

"Arabesque Strategies"? Biased much?

106 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:14:51pm

re: #3 researchok

By the way, I changed the link in this Page to go directly to the VV article. People get irritated when they click through to another site, only to see the same quote and another link they have to click to get to the actual article. Unless you're going to post some commentary at your site that adds value, it's much better to link directly to the article from here.

107 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:15:01pm

re: #104 CuriousLurker

The people who complain most about how we need reasonable argument are almost always the ones dodging questions and moving the goalposts.

It's like they lack any sense of self-reflection.

108 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:15:43pm

re: #106 Charles Johnson

By the way, I changed the link in this Page to go directly to the VV article. People get irritated when they click through to another site, only to see the same quote and another link they have to click to get to the actual article. Unless you're going to post some commentary at your site that adds value, it's much better to link directly to the article from here.

Thank you!

109 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:16:27pm

re: #102 researchok

I would add the word 'context' to that sentence.

Why? Stabby has made statements that are false regardless of the context.

110 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:17:58pm

I'm loving our new auto-hyphenation feature. I know most people probably won't even notice it, but to me it greatly enhances the readability when the lines are more even in length.

111 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:20:00pm

re: #106 Charles Johnson

Duly noted.

112 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:20:49pm

re: #107 Obdicut

The people who complain most about how we need reasonable argument are almost always the ones dodging questions and moving the goalposts.

It's like they lack any sense of self-reflection.

Hardly.

Finding out where someone's position actually is requires a lot of questioning and arguing.

No one here has shown any inkling of realization that an effort is actually needed.

If you think that the conclusions about me that you jumped to mean anything then you're not very deep yourself. This forum uses these silly dings to apply social pressure - and you've gotten used to manipulating people with this silly mechanism. All you've really learned about me is that I argue and ignore social pressure. That doesn't mean that our actual positions are far apart at all, it just means that I don't show my neck in surrender and join the pack. You may THINK that's a sign that I'm on some opposing team, but that's very shallow thinking.

113 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:21:29pm

re: #110 Charles Johnson

One thing, since we're talking about changes- is there any chance of making the contrast greater in the tags section?

The white on the light shade of gray can be a bit difficult to work with at times.

114 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:23:07pm

re: #111 researchok

Duly noted.

Thank you!

115 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:23:29pm

re: #111 researchok

I shall add commentary as necessary on the pages post, if not on the blog.

116 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:23:58pm

re: #96 Randall Gross

I'm thinking Stabby is probably part of that "Nee Moskee" crowd. I'm not sure which faction however.

May I ask what that means?

117 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:23:58pm

I have to get up now.

118 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:24:42pm

re: #112 stabby

You're really obsessed with dings. If you actually ignore them, then ignore them.

I've tried to engage you in argument, but you refuse.

I've asked if you've read the Tanakh, and you didn't answer.

I asked why Muslims literalism is supposedly unique when Jews are forbidden to alter the Tanakh and there are many biblical literalists, and you refuse to answer.

You refused to engage at all with the point that it was secular Enlightenment that reformed Christianity (to the extent that it is reformed.)

And now you're just reduced to a scrabbling 'tone' argument, and a "You're so shallow and stupid" argument.

I'm perfectly happy to discuss the issue with you when you get around to actually making a fucking argument that isn't based on completely false premises.

119 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:26:37pm

re: #114 wrenchwench

No doubt you wake up every morning looking for my own insightful and thoughtful remarks.

//

OK, I'll do it.

You laughed.

120 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:26:46pm

re: #112 stabby

Stabby, I've seen this dance play out before and it seldom ends well for the person who getting the downdings. No matter how right you think you are, most people here don't agree, and continuing to push your views is only going to make things worse. My advice is log off at this point and come back tomorrow on a difference topic.

121 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:27:10pm

re: #112 stabby

All you've really learned about me is that I argue and ignore social pressure questions I don't want to address.

FTFY.

122 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:27:36pm

re: #119 researchok

No doubt you wake up every morning looking for my own insightful and thoughtful remarks.

//

OK, I'll do it.

Or post a direct link.

123 dragonath  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:27:50pm

re: #112 stabby

Then it was pretty damn moronic to enter this conversation by defending a bigot, and then backtracking into a "Islam is bad, mmkay?" position.

124 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:28:36pm

re: #120 Dark_Falcon

Stabby, I've seen this dance play out before and it seldom ends well for the person who getting the downdings. No matter how right you think you are, most people here don't agree, and continuing to push your views is only going to make things worse. My advice is log off at this point and come back tomorrow on a difference topic.

I suppose they love pressing that downding button and mocking more than they would enjoy meaningful argument. Their loss.

Anyway I have to go now.

125 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:28:49pm

re: #122 wrenchwench

Naw, I need to irritate you. I'dd add comments.

///

126 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:30:08pm

re: #124 stabby

I suppose they love pressing that downding button and mocking more than they would enjoy meaningful argument. Their loss.

Anyway I have to go now.

Nice to leave on a false dichotomy. I both downding you and meaningfully argue against you; you, however, dodge meaningful argument and whine continually about downdings while claiming you don't care about them.

127 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:32:29pm

You know at slashdot, if you respond to a comment then your dings on that comment are erased.

You can answer OR you can disapprove, but you can't do both.

128 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:32:47pm

re: #95 stabby

Careful argument is hard and tedious as is trying to find a reasonable position in a hard situation.

I think none of us want to take the time right now, I have to get up, make breakfast and get ready for a doctor's appointment.

The fact is that this blog is in a war with paranoids, and that was my argument for years - beating down the nuts. BUT but, it's better to do that by asking for a nuanced reaction to reality than to do it by trying to deny the problematic facts.

It's better that people can debate the painful facts out loud and that reactions be kept reasonable by argument than that we keep the peace by not ever saying the things that set off the paranoids and idiots.

You're not making a careful argument. You're engaged in a giant special pleading in which the worst actors of Islam become syndoches of the religion, and a separate special pleading where specific quotations somehow embody the whole religion's to-the-foundation flawed ethics. It's been fallacies since word one. Your reaction to people provided counter-examples shows that you really have no argument except "this time, it's different."

Basically, you're dumb, and don't know you're dumb, and thus think your argument is clever and valid. But really all you've done is say "but Islam is different, therefore my prejudice is valid" in long form. What you've written is trite, much repeated by people dwelling in Gellar/Spencer's sphere, and fundamentally unsound as logic.

You're getting pushback because of what you're trying to pass off as "reasonable" and "logical" when its neither. It's a fallacy hash.

You're also ignorant, which leads you to a different kind of special pleading, wherein excerpted bits of text that are "violent" can be used to characterize a whole religion--and in turn, the vast population of adherents are suspect.

With each post you're situating yourself more and more in comfortable mythology in which you're intellectually daring and we're stymieing you, so I doubt any of this will sink in. Epistemic closure plus smugness is pretty much the death knell of critical thinking.

129 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:36:24pm

re: #112 stabby

Hardly.

Finding out where someone's position actually is requires a lot of questioning and arguing.

Yet you jumped down darthstar's throat and made incorrect assumptions about him just last week. Hmm.

No one here has shown any inkling of realization that an effort is actually needed.

If you think that the conclusions about me that you jumped to mean anything then you're not very deep yourself. This forum uses these silly dings to apply social pressure - and you've gotten used to manipulating people with this silly mechanism. All you've really learned about me is that I argue and ignore social pressure. That doesn't mean that our actual positions are far apart at all, it just means that I don't show my neck in surrender and join the pack. You may THINK that's a sign that I'm on some opposing team, but that's very shallow thinking.

Ah, right. You're a brave martyr standing up to a pack of of irrational, wolf-like bullies who're ganging up on you for no good reason. It has nothing to do with your gross generalizations, straw men, constant moving of goalposts, and condescending tone. Here, have a cookie. *hands stabby a martyr cookie*

130 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:37:54pm

re: #128 The Prayerful Consideration of a Flea

With each post you're situating yourself more and more in comfortable mythology in which you're intellectually daring and we're stymieing you, so I doubt any of this will sink in. Epistemic closure plus smugness is pretty much the death knell of critical thinking.

I'm in too much of a hurry to really argue right now, but making so many assumptions so fast is ugly.

131 jaunte  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:38:52pm

re: #128 The Prayerful Consideration of a Flea

...really all you've done is say "but Islam is different, therefore my prejudice is valid" in long form. What you've written is trite, much repeated by people dwelling in Gellar/Spencer's sphere, and fundamentally unsound as logic.

You're getting pushback because of what you're trying to pass off as "reasonable" and "logical" when its neither. It's a fallacy hash.

So far I've seen nothing to persuade me that Muslims are any less creative than the rest of humanity when it comes to modifying or ignoring selected parts of their holy and immutable scriptures.

132 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:39:06pm

re: #129 CuriousLurker

Yet you jumped down darthstar's throat and made incorrect assumptions about him just last week. Hmm.

You're right, and I also had him confused with someone else.

I apologize to darthstar

133 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:41:06pm

re: #132 stabby

Two tips:

1. Don't claim to ignore downdings and then obsess about them.

2. Don't say you're leaving over and over and over again.

Oh, and a free third tip:

3. Make actual arguments, not just repeated assertions.

134 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:41:47pm

re: #130 stabby

I'm in too much of a hurry to really argue right now, but making so many assumptions so fast is ugly.

Why don't you come back and continue to make yourself look dumb when you have more time?

135 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:42:49pm

re: #133 Obdicut

I may actually chose to refuse to give serious argument to people who use downdings and early insults in lieu of argument.

136 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:45:00pm

re: #112 stabby

Oh, bite me, you microcephalic australopithecine.

137 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:45:08pm

re: #135 stabby

I may actually chose to refuse to give serious argument to people who use downdings and early insults in lieu of argument.

What if they give you serious arguments and keep asking questions that you ignore?

138 dragonath  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:45:19pm

re: #135 stabby

I may actually chose to refuse to give serious argument to people who use downdings and early insults in lieu of argument.

Oh come on.

139 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:45:48pm

re: #135 stabby

I may actually chose to refuse to give serious argument to people who use downdings and early insults in lieu of argument.

That's pretty convenient for you. After dodging my questions for the whole thread, now you find a way to claim that you're doing so out of some moral rectitude.

Nice one.

140 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:47:04pm

re: #109 wrenchwench

I reread- you're right.

141 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:47:43pm

re: #139 Obdicut

That's pretty convenient for you. After dodging my questions for the whole thread, now you find a way to claim that you're doing so out of some moral rectitude.

Nice one.

No, just because I have years and years of experience arguing on the internet, and I will only take time on people who are enjoyable and interesting to argue with.

142 RadicalModerate  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:49:48pm

re: #135 stabby

I may actually chose to refuse to give serious argument to people who use downdings and early insults in lieu of argument.

So, if you are challenged to back up an assertion that has been oft-discussed and shown to be intellectually dishonest, you choose to turn a deaf ear?

Good to know.

143 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:49:59pm

re: #141 stabby

No, just because I have years and years of experience arguing on the internet, and I will only take time on people who are enjoyable and interesting to argue with.

Now I'm starting to feel Stabby.

144 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:50:04pm

re: #141 stabby

No, just because I have years and years of experience arguing on the internet, and I will only take time on people who are enjoyable and interesting to argue with.

Oh god. That one is too sad to mock.

145 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:50:19pm

re: #141 stabby

No, just because I have years and years of experience arguing on the internet, and I will only take time on people who are enjoyable and interesting to argue with.

Meaning 'Those who agree with me to one atomic diameter.'

146 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:50:49pm

re: #141 stabby

No, just because I have years and years of experience arguing on the internet, and I will only take time on people who are enjoyable and interesting to argue with.

Are you aware of all Internet traditions?

147 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:52:06pm

re: #145 Romantic Heretic

Another weird assumption added to the thread. Stop it.

148 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:52:51pm

re: #146 Decatur Deb

Are you aware of all Internet traditions?

You don't understand, man. He has years and years.

Not just years.

Image: BRTky.jpg

149 RadicalModerate  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:53:51pm

re: #141 stabby

No, just because I have years and years of experience arguing on the internet, and I will only take time on people who are enjoyable and interesting to argue with.

Obviously.

150 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:56:05pm

re: #147 stabby

Another weird assumption added to the thread. Stop it.

Says the man who has been regurgitating some strange, mythological versions of history and religion.

151 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:59:50pm

re: #150 Romantic Heretic

Says the man who has been regurgitating some strange, mythological versions of history and religion.

Is Stabby male? The avatar is female. I hate gender-ambiguous online nics.

152 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 12:59:56pm

We need Norm Peterson to sort this all out.
/

153 dragonath  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 1:00:10pm

re: #141 stabby

Dude, I can understand someone saying "Oh, I'm against Christianity, but I don't oppose the building of churches". Instead, you chose to enter this debate by defending the motivations of someone who is a bigot. It would be like me saying "Oh well, I don't believe the Protocols of Zion, but you gotta admit, they've got a point".

Have the courage to admit you were wrong, rather than regaling us with stories of how wonderful the slashdot comment system is (it isn't).

154 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 1:03:03pm

re: #151 Decatur Deb

Is Stabby male? The avatar is female. I hate gender-ambiguous online nics.

Yeah, it's awful.

155 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 1:16:45pm

re: #56 Charles Johnson

I don't know if you meant me, but I certainly didn't defend Geller.

Now I found my paperwork for my appointment (it took me 2 months to get this appointment and was so scared when I didn't find the paperwork right away!) and I'm running out to eat on the way because I don't have time to cook.

156 RadicalModerate  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 1:30:41pm

re: #151 Decatur Deb

Is Stabby male? The avatar is female. I hate gender-ambiguous online nics.

The avatar is of a character who is pretty famous for being, for lack of a better word, a total airhead. So much so, that she was considered the codifier for the Cloudcuckoolander trope before the subcategory split.

157 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 1:39:39pm

re: #156 RadicalModerate

How apt. //

158 Rochi613  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 2:08:48pm

re: #48 Charles Johnson

I don't see someone like Pamela Geller as helping Israel. And I am not defending her behaviors or vocabulary. Nonetheless, as has happened before, when I've tried to pinpoint issues that may have important relevance - such as jihadist beliefs and their widespread and manipulative power or notions of the moral high ground in war - a raucous blather ensued because of who wrote the trigger article I used or, like today, because I pointed out that sometimes paranoids have real enemies. My point is - perhaps due to a years-long Presidential election campaign in which bizarre or invented right wing 'outrages' took place every day that needed to be sharply (sharkly?) ripped apart and disposed of - LGF has begun to sound as rabid and unsubtle as those you were arguing against. I'm an intelligent, polite person, not a liar. I posted at Village Voice because I thought I should directly address the author of the piece. And I joined in the conversation here because that's what here is for, no? Civil discussion? Something more substantial than 'which team is she on?'

159 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 2:26:00pm

re: #158 Rochi613

Your claim that billions of Muslims want a global caliphate-- how many Muslims are there in the world?

160 Randall Gross  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 2:38:31pm

re: #158 Rochi613

Liar. You said "billions of muslims" which clearly demonstrates your bigotry.

161 Rochi613  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 2:40:54pm

re: #105 Dark_Falcon

It's a word. Look it up. Highly ornamental design. An example of how how it relates to actual Arab strategies is me sitting here right this minute watching Mr. Abbas getting the status of a non-member observer state at the General Assembly of the UN, a body not authorized to confer statehood, for the Palestinian people, a people created to deprive Israel of statehood when Arab military might did not succeed.

162 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 2:41:42pm

re: #88 stabby

Stabby, We here at LGF are what you get when you face the horror without going over board. Not you.

Geezus, are we at 162 already? There's got to be a prize or something for Stabby now. Not even BUCK could stretch a post like this!

163 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 2:52:48pm

re: #158 Rochi613

I posted at Village Voice because I thought I should directly address the author of the piece. And I joined in the conversation here because that's what here is for, no? Civil discussion? Something more substantial than 'which team is she on?'

Apparently not, since just two sentences previously you asserted that "LGF has begun to sound as rabid and unsubtle as those you were arguing against" and referred to a "a raucous blather" that ensued because you oh-so-innocently defended a hate-monger's paranoid conspiracy theories.

...I am not a Pamela Geller fan at all. But she’s not crazy. The rabid jihadism she is afraid of is mainstream where I live, in the Middle East. It saturates the consciousness of the people of every Islam-devoted state (and the non-state of Palestine) surrounding Israel and for beyond.

...This insane and violent religiously inspired and perpetuated hatred has nothing to do with anything Israel did (except reclaim its historical homeland as declared by the UN, that is, exist) just as 9/11...was because that free and glorious country (the one of my birth) exists, and stands for freedoms that Islam considers wickedness and seeks to eliminate in the world.

Ms. Geller is not crazy, but she will be treated like Cassandra, because America still doesn’t get it. Alas. [...]

I hear you. Nonetheless, that is the jihadists' plan. We may giggle at the idea of a global Islamic Caliphate or think it's insane, but we need to know it is seriously on the mind of billions of people who yearn for its implementation. And their methods and acts often deserve the epithet 'savagery.'

You're here to stir up trouble and promote Geller's febrile hate-mongering. You've already painted the all the "billions" of the world's Muslims as bloodthirsty savages hellbent on the destruction and/or domination of the West. You claim not to be a supporter of Geller, yet you echo her ranting conspiracies and liken her to Cassandra.

Pamela Geller, by her own admission in the article, is nothing more than a Long Island housewife who was traumatized by 9/11 and became a hate-filled anti-Muslim bigot of the worst order. She's not a Cassandra. And she's not so insane as to miss out on making lots of money selling her fear & hate.

You're full of crap and everyone here can smell the stench.

164 Rochi613  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 2:56:40pm

re: #160 Randall Gross

re: #159 Obdicut

Dear Lord, what a level of discourse. You're right. I meant to say zillions. I am not a liar, just human. And I am biased against those who seek a global Islamic Caliphate, aren't you?

165 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 3:06:39pm

re: #164 Rochi613

You coyness is laughable. Does it work well for you on other sites?

166 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 3:14:35pm

re: #164 Rochi613

re: #159 Obdicut

Dear Lord, what a level of discourse...

Hello from a waiting room.

And yes, I agree.

You know, I named my login "stabby" because I have a tendency to push people very hard when arguing or trying to unearth people's assumptions or even when attacking people on moral grounds.

But as uncivil as I can be, it's my opinion that these people are doing it wrong. They attack early, making the same sort of mistake I did with darthstar - of assuming. But they also stick with their assumption, stick with shallow issues, shallow attacks and get away with bluster because they can rely on the wolf pack.

It looks like however less rabid LGF looks on the surface from some years ago, it's dysfunctional in some sense. This comment section is shallow and less capable of debate than many places where the content is worse.

But at least the articles are good.

167 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 3:17:21pm

re: #163 CuriousLurker

Downding for "and everyone can smell the stench"

168 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 3:18:14pm

re: #166 stabby

Down-ding for being insufferably smug.

169 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 3:24:04pm

Man, the smug is getting thick in here.

170 RadicalModerate  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 3:24:56pm

re: #164 Rochi613

re: #159 Obdicut

Dear Lord, what a level of discourse. You're right. I meant to say zillions. I am not a liar, just human. And I am biased against those who seek a global Islamic Caliphate, aren't you?

Now your comments are starting to read like crap that I've read on Holocaust denial sites.

Please, keep digging.

171 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 3:28:25pm

BBL—I'm gonna go bake a fresh batch of martyr cookies 'cause it looks like we're gonna need 'em...

172 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 3:38:01pm

re: #22 wrenchwench

If you don't know how it works, why do you make an unsupported assumption?

You haven't met SpaceJesus, have you.

That boy was astro-nomically in the karma hole, that is for sure...

///

173 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 3:44:22pm

re: #166 stabby

You don't push hard at all, though. You refuse to answer questions, dodge away, and then claim that you're not doing so because of... downdings, that's it. No, wait, it's because I'm not interesting enough to debate, after your years and years on the internet.

You push about as hard as a pillow in front of a gentle breeze.

174 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 3:48:38pm

re: #173 Obdicut

That's because you didn't succeed in starting an argument with me.

If you'd waited till I got to the doctor's we could have had one. You know life doesn't end with one thread. And not everyone feels like the most important thing at the moment is satisfying you.

Anyway I think I'll go beat on a programming problem for a while.

175 bratwurst  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 3:51:37pm

re: #166 stabby

It looks like however less rabid LGF looks on the surface from some years ago, it's dysfunctional in some sense. This comment section is shallow and less capable of debate than many places where the content is worse.

Yet, here you are.

176 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 3:54:38pm

re: #174 stabby

*runs back into thread*

Wait! Take these with you... *holds out tray of warm martyr cookies, fresh from the oven*

177 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 3:54:55pm

re: #158 Rochi613

In your first post you compared Pamela Geller to Cassandra, the figure from Greek myth, famous for warning of the horrors of war and the fall of Troy, but being ignored.

Geller spends every single day of her life not warning of war, but doing her best to incite it. She's on a deranged crusade to spread polarization, and conflict ... and the most rank kind of vile, gutter-level hatred.

Pamela Geller is not Cassandra. If I were to compare her to a figure from Greek mythology, I'd lean towards Medusa.

178 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 3:57:18pm

By the way I agree with CJ about Geller and about how wrong it is to compare her with Cassandra.

Islam is certainly no threat to the US.

179 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 4:00:31pm

re: #124 stabby

I suppose they love pressing that downding button and mocking more than they would enjoy meaningful argument. Their loss.

Anyway I have to go now.

180 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 4:05:28pm

re: #174 stabby

If I'd waited... to do what? You spent like an hour dodging the points I made. You could have taken your time in response. You didn't. You're still dodging them. You, I suspect, will always dodge them, because you don't actually have a response, you don't have anything beyond a bare assertion that was literally one of the first things I heard at this site back when I joined way back when. The person who made that assertion now posts over at the stalker blog, the place where they celebrate the massacre of Jews during the reconquista, the ethnic cleansing of Croats by Serbs, and think white supremacists are just dandy.

So forgive me for being unimpressed by your tired-ass argument that you didn't even make a pretense of actually defending with anything other than a repetition of "Islam is worse because, you see, they all have to take it literally and the Koran has scary stuff in it."

181 Randall Gross  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 4:05:58pm

re: #164 Rochi613

You said billions meaning all muslims including the not yet born? You are a bigot, pure and simply evil.

183 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 4:12:35pm

re: #182 Charles Johnson

Fitting, given Caravaggio is one of the more disturbing of painters.

184 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 4:16:07pm

re: #178 stabby

By the way I agree with CJ about Geller and about how wrong it is to compare her with Cassandra.

Well, thank goodness for that. Now CJ doesn't have to lose any sleep fretting over whether or not you agree with him. //

Islam is certainly no threat to the US.

Yay, we're saved! But wait, I'm...never mind.

185 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 4:20:15pm

re: #177 Charles Johnson

In your first post you compared Pamela Geller to Cassandra, the figure from Greek myth, famous for warning of the horrors of war and the fall of Troy, but being ignored.

Geller spends every single day of her life not warning of war, but doing her best to incite it. She's on a deranged crusade to spread polarization, and conflict ... and the most rank kind of vile, gutter-level hatred.

Pamela Geller is not Cassandra. If I were to compare her to a figure from Greek mythology, I'd lean towards Medusa.

Given all the support she's given to the EDL and other bigots, I'd be more inclined to compare her to Echidna.

186 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 4:26:50pm

re: #185 Dark_Falcon

Given all the support she's given to the EDL and other bigots, I'd be more inclined to compare her to Echidna.

Plus one for my daily I didn't know that-(I need to learn more about mythology)

187 Randall Gross  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 4:27:50pm

NEE Moskee, or no Mosques, was the original anti-mosque campaign started by Vlaams Belang in Belgium and then adopted by other nationalists and bigots across Europe and America.

188 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 4:28:04pm

re: #186 HappyWarrior

Plus one for my daily I didn't know that-(I need to learn more about mythology)

Glad to be of service. I felt that Echidna's status as the "Mother of all monsters" fits Pam Geller the best.

189 HappyWarrior  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 4:33:17pm

re: #188 Dark_Falcon

Glad to be of service. I felt that Echidna's status as the "Mother of all monsters" fits Pam Geller the best.

No arguments here. Really, how hard is it for some to say she's an awful person because of her paling around with the Neo-Nazis and Fascists?

190 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 4:34:28pm

re: #188 Dark_Falcon

Glad to be of service. I felt that Echidna's status as the "Mother of all monsters" fits Pam Geller the best.

Her daughters might be fine, though (poor girls). I've seen that Medusa by Caravaggio. It will do.

191 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 4:36:24pm

re: #190 wrenchwench

Her daughters might be fine, though (poor girls). I've seen that Medusa by Caravaggio. It will do.

She has spawned her monsters not by her womb, but by her hateful words and actions.

192 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 4:56:03pm

re: #183 Obdicut

Fitting, given Caravaggio is one of the more disturbing of painters.

Years back the BBC posted a scan of a Renaissance legal document that detailed Carvaggio getting into a fistfight over improperly-cooked artichokes.

Great painter, not a very nice guy.

193 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 5:10:23pm

re: #192 The Gender Ambiguity of a Flea

Years back the BBC posted a scan of a Renaissance legal document that detailed Carvaggio getting into a fistfight over improperly-cooked artichokes.

Great painter, not a very nice guy.

Sheesh. It seems like most of the really talented artists were...difficult. I wonder why?

194 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 5:11:33pm

re: #191 Dark_Falcon

She has spawned her monsters not by her womb, but by her hateful words and actions.

That's very poetic despite the subject matter.

195 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 5:11:49pm

re: #192 The Gender Ambiguity of a Flea

Years back the BBC posted a scan of a Renaissance legal document that detailed Carvaggio getting into a fistfight over improperly-cooked artichokes.

Great painter, not a very nice guy.

Perhaps we was anti-Semitic:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

196 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 5:14:46pm

Most disturbing paintings ever? Hieronymus Bosch, IMO. *shudder*

197 researchok  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 5:22:40pm

re: #193 CuriousLurker

Sheesh. It seems like most of the really talented artists were...difficult. I wonder why?

Nut jobs.

Think Van Gogh, Dali, Picasso, et al.

And Michelangelo.

Oh yeah.

198 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 5:25:47pm

re: #195 Decatur Deb

Perhaps we was anti-Semitic:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Dude had a long rapsheet, mostly brawling. There's actually a theory had suffered from slow lead poisoning, whose symptoms include aggression.

That dish looks crazy tasty.

199 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 5:28:10pm

re: #198 The Gender Ambiguity of a Flea

Dude had a long rapsheet, mostly brawling. There's actually a theory had suffered from slow lead poisoning, whose symptoms include aggression.

That dish looks crazy tasty.

Lost his temper because he licked his tempera?

200 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 5:29:27pm

re: #199 Decatur Deb

Lost his temper because he licked his tempera?

Oh...well played. Well played.

201 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 5:34:37pm

re: #197 researchok

Nut jobs.

Think Van Gogh, Dali, Picasso, et al.

And Michelangelo.

Oh yeah.

Exactly. Van Gogh was so tortured & depressive, Picasso was...well, a massive asshole, Dali was a loon, Michelangelo was incredibly intense, totally consumed by his art. You hardly ever hear of any great artists who were just "regular guys" (or gals). I guess that sort of creative fire turns everything in its path into a heap of smoldering ashes. Either that or artists are the world's most malignant narcissists, heh.

202 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 5:37:31pm

re: #198 The Gender Ambiguity of a Flea

re: #199 Decatur Deb

Yeah, they said that about Van Gogh too, didn't they?

I recently took up acrylic & watercolor painting and prior to doing so read up on pigments. Jeez Louise, some of the old ones were deadly toxic.

203 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 5:41:01pm

re: #202 CuriousLurker

re: #199 Decatur Deb

Yeah, they said that about Van Gogh too, didn't they?

I recently took up acrylic & watercolor painting and prior to doing so read up on pigments. Jeez Louise, some of the old ones were deadly toxic.

There's an entire sub-discipline of industrial safety focused on arts-and-crafts. They have a distinct literature:

[Link: sis.nlm.nih.gov...]

204 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 5:42:06pm

re: #203 Decatur Deb

There's an entire sub-discipline of industrial safety focused on arts-and-crafts. They have a distinct literature:

[Link: sis.nlm.nih.gov...]

I hadn't seen that one before. Thanks!

205 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 5:51:55pm

re: #202 CuriousLurker

re: #199 Decatur Deb

Yeah, they said that about Van Gogh too, didn't they?

I recently took up acrylic & watercolor painting and prior to doing so read up on pigments. Jeez Louise, some of the old ones were deadly toxic.

Lead, cadmium, mercury. A lot of pretty colors start with heavy metals. The only thing spookier than reading about ancient pigment making for paints is reading about ancient pigment making for dyes and makeup.

206 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 5:53:12pm

re: #205 The Gender Ambiguity of a Flea

Lead, cadmium, mercury. A lot of pretty colors start with heavy metals. The only thing spookier than reading about ancient pigment making for paints is reading about ancient pigment making for dyes and makeup.

E gad, no kidding!

207 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 7:51:34pm

re: #85 researchok

You know what? I feel for you.

When all is said and done, you are just as indoctrinated as those you claim to oppose.

Why not take a step back and look for clarity?

I'm no fan of Palestinian leaders, their dysfunction and certainly not their violence (a nice way of saying I hate the current reality).

That said, how do you believe your characterizations (and thus subsequent behaviors) will fix the situation? What positive elements have you added into the equation? I would say exactly as many as have Hamas and even the PA.

You are engaged in a war of words when the real battle is a war for the liberation of the Palestinians- and the rest of the Arab world- from their broken leaders who have created broken societies.

You will not create a new world if you denigrate everything they have. It is far better to denigrate what was taken from them- their dignity, taken by tyrants. Give them back their dignity and see what happens.

Broadcast the truth 24/7 and not even the 'religious' leaders paid by the state and calling for death will be able to counter that.

Well here's the crux of the argument we're having.

You're seeing words not as a description of reality but as a tool of policy. You ask "how do you believe your characterizations (and thus subsequent behaviors) will fix the situation? What positive elements have you added into the equation?" and you say "You will not create a new world if you denigrate everything they have."

Excuse me, I'm not doing work in the middle east. I'm not a diplomat, I'm not talking to Egyptians at the moment, I'm talking to you.

I agree that criticizing religion isn't helpful in some contexts. The President shouldn't be denigrating a religion, which makes Obama or even GWB much better presidents than Newt Gingritch would be. Elementary school teachers shouldn't criticize Islam, I'd even grant that high school teachers shouldn't criticize Islam because their students aren't old enough to distinguish a religion from its adherents.

But I'm not the president and this isn't even a high school classroom. This is an insignificant comment in an insignificant thread on a blog.

And the ability to criticize religion is vital. Even the ability to mock and denigrate religion is vital. We would not have modernity if people hadn't fought and sometimes even died for the right to oppose religion.

Look I know that if I want to work among Muslims I would have to avoid offending Islam. I know that the most successful workers against female genital mutilation avoid blaming Islam, and the ones who do blame Islam make themselves useless in the Muslim world.

But I'm not writing my comments to work in Muslim world, I'm trying to describe reality for a bunch of westerners (and one Israeli) in a comment section.

I'm not calling for any policy, I'm not a Geller trying to end Muslim immigration, I'm not promoting hatred.

I'll agree that there are all kinds of red lines, all kinds of ways that this kind of speech can do more harm than good, I've argued with the victims of that harm for years. And yet and yet, we also need truth. For one thing we can't hide the truth, when we try we only discredit ourselves. For another we can't navigate our lives and policies while blinded by lies and deliberate silences. And for a third thing the attempt to make speech a medium of control, of coercion rather than of truth offends me.

208 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 8:02:00pm

Geezus, Allah, Buddha.

209 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 8:13:31pm

re: #207 stabby

Well here's the crux of the argument we're having.

You're seeing words not as a description of reality but as a tool of policy. You ask "how do you believe your characterizations (and thus subsequent behaviors) will fix the situation? What positive elements have you added into the equation?" and you say "You will not create a new world if you denigrate everything they have."

Excuse me, I'm not doing work in the middle east. I'm not a diplomat, I'm not talking to Egyptians at the moment, I'm talking to you.

I agree that criticizing religion isn't helpful in some contexts. The President shouldn't be denigrating a religion, which makes Obama or even GWB much better presidents than Newt Gingritch would be. Elementary school teachers shouldn't criticize Islam, I'd even grant that high school teachers shouldn't criticize Islam because their students aren't old enough to distinguish a religion from its adherents.

But I'm not the president and this isn't even a high school classroom. This is an insignificant comment in an insignificant thread on a blog.

And the ability to criticize religion is vital. Even the ability to mock and denigrate religion is vital. We would not have modernity if people hadn't fought and sometimes even died for the right to oppose religion.

Look I know that if I want to work among Muslims I would have to avoid offending Islam. I know that the most successful workers against female genital mutilation avoid blaming Islam, and the ones who do blame Islam make themselves useless in the Muslim world.

But I'm not writing my comments to work in Muslim world, I'm trying to describe reality for a bunch of westerners (and one Israeli) in a comment section.

I'm not calling for any policy, I'm not a Geller trying to end Muslim immigration, I'm not promoting hatred.

I'll agree that there are all kinds of red lines, all kinds of ways that this kind of speech can do more harm than good, I've argued with the victims of that harm for years. And yet and yet, we also need truth. For one thing we can't hide the truth, when we try we only discredit ourselves. For another we can't navigate our lives and policies while blinded by lies and deliberate silences. And for a third thing the attempt to make speech a medium of control, of coercion rather than of truth offends me.

I hear you, but the group here at LGf understands reality pretty well. We're not just a bunch of doctrinaire liberals, I myself am not a liberal at all (being a conservative instead). But when you say you're "describing reality", it sounds like you think other people don't understand reality and that sort of attitude is very badly received here. Speak with greater care, Stabby, and you'll come to like LGF.

210 stabby  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 8:31:30pm
But when you say you're "describing reality", it sounds like you think other people don't understand reality and that sort of attitude is very badly received here.

researchok (at least in that comment) didn't oppose what I said on the grounds that it was false. He didn't say that at all. He essentially said "you shouldn't say that because it's counter-productive".

So I don't think he even disagrees with me, he just thinks that what I wrote should not be written.

And my answer was that it should not be said in some contexts or for some purposes. And even a nobody on a blog can be a Pamela Geller.

It's hard work finding where to draw the line, and I don't mean where to draw the line for "censor, don't censor" but even for how to oppose Islamism without being unfair or counterproductive. I have a lot of experience watching those lines shift in people's arguments over the years.

I did a lot of fighting at Harry's Place's comment section over the years. The above-the-line (ie authors rather than commenters) editorial line very slowly had to bend from somewhat politically correct to slightly more hardline just to be able to talk about the issues that Islamist rhetoric and actions bring up.

And in some sense it doesn't work. As Charles probably knows, it doesn't matter how carefully you draw those lines in articles about Islamism, it doesn't matter how fair you are, you will attract paranoids and haters and emotional reactions that are not fair.

And yet I don't give up on talking openly.

211 wheat-dogghazi  Fri, Nov 30, 2012 2:16:50am

I'm late to the party as usual. Something about putting in a full working day that's 13 hours ahead of the Eastern Time Zone kinda does that.

stabby has made quite a splash here, s/he of "years and years" of Internet debate experience. By comparison, I am sure I am but a babe in the woods, having been somewhat active in the game since about 2005, and at LGF only since May 2010. Doubtless, Stabby is both wiser and more learned about this whole "Internet debating" thing than I.

That said, in my humble opinion, Stabby, you didn't learn much.

First, you make assertions without offering any decent evidence. Anecdotal evidence and repeating assertions don't count.

@15: It's true that Islam is the most problematic religion,

@54: Christianity can be bad and Islam can be worse at the same time.

Look, get a Koran and a collection of hadiths, then read them. Then read the bible. Ask yourself what percent of the verses on the Islamic side promote hatred or oppression or war or just read like hate speech.

@74: And yet, Mohammad's own words and supposed actions will always have an effect. They can't be ignored by Muslims.

@83: Christians can teach a lot of horrible things that aren't in the Bible, but they're less likely to, and those ideas can easily go out of style over a generation.

Also Islam is more literal than Christianity, and that's because of a rant Mohamad went on ...

When someone challenges you with specific questions regarding those assertions, you fail to address them. (Obdicut @103 and @118 and challenges from Curious Lurker @60 and @73.)

You then proceed to another subject, not logically connected in any way to the first, meaning the whole whine about down-dings and lack of "meaningful" discussion.

@166: But as uncivil as I can be, it's my opinion that these people are doing it wrong. They attack early, making the same sort of mistake I did with darthstar - of assuming. But they also stick with their assumption, stick with shallow issues, shallow attacks and get away with bluster because they can rely on the wolf pack.

And yet when Obdi and others avoid shallow attacks and have specific objections to your assertions, you avoid responding to them.

How is this debate? I rather thought debate required give-and-take on specific points. You say A, I challenge A with B. You respond to my challenge B directly with Asub1 and I respond with Bsub1, and so on.

Did you do that, or has my scant seven years of experience left me with no discernment of expert debating?

Then there is your very annoying self-aggrandisement of those "years and years" of experience as a Internet debater. (A master-debater, as it were.)

@50: If you don't think that Israel hatred isn't the default position many many many places, then you have no experience arguing about the middle east.

Here comment is very called for, unfortunately. I've dealt with that for years.

Puh-lease! You are not dealing with a bunch of numbnuts here. In my relatively short time here at LGF, I've come to appreciate the knowledge, reasoning and willingness to think among the vast majority of the commenters here. Your wading in as a self-described Grand Poo-Bah of Islam and the Middle East leaves most of us cold. Put on that humility suit buried in the back of your closet, answer the questions given you, and stop acting like some What-All Expert.

By the way, despite your assertions that you're just a reasonable, fair-minded kinda guy, you come off as someone who really doesn't like Islam and Muslims in general. Just sayin'.

212 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Nov 30, 2012 5:01:22am

re: #211 wheat-dogghazi

(Applauds) Nicely done!

213 wheat-dogghazi  Fri, Nov 30, 2012 9:00:30am

谢谢. That means "thank you."


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