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1 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 7:59:46pm

To Hell with the UN! This is just yet another insult they've handed to Israel. Israel has taken them all and is still standing. This is no fault of Netanyahu, this is about assholes in the UN who have never given Bibi or his nation a fair shake.

2 freetoken  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 8:31:59pm

I see you're going to garner the usual down-dings.

Anyway, I do agree that Netanyahu is an especially ineffective international player, and that he has not strengthened Israel's international relations.

The only nations voting against this measure - Canada, the Czech Republic, the Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau and Panama - did so either because they are US dependencies or because (in the case of Panama, Czechs, and Canada) those nations' own foreign policies are directly dependent upon US foreign policy.

IOW, the no votes were not in support of Israel, but in support of the US.

If the day ever comes when there is a US President who really doesn't care to cater to American conservative Christian religious sensitivities (and note that even President Obama has very carefully tread the boundaries of the religious beliefs of the majority of Americans) and decides that fighting at the UN for Israel isn't in the best interest of the US then what little resistance there is at the UN for propositions such as these will disappear.

This is why Netanyahu works the American religious right scene - it's his only real leverage on the world scene.

3 Destro  Thu, Nov 29, 2012 10:57:51pm

re: #2 freetoken

And the countries that abstained did so because they are also an American dependency of sorts (or dependent on American good will and trade like Germany) and thus did not want to vote against the USA but support the Palestinian action for limited recognition. And let's face it, as you said, the only reason the State Dept and American politicians are taking the stand they are is because of American domestic politics.

4 Eclectic Infidel  Fri, Nov 30, 2012 1:11:33am

The UN is biased against Israel.

Just like the Arab Spring is a raving joke, so is this, and when it blows up in Abbas' face, rest assured that somehow Israel will be blamed.

5 researchok  Fri, Nov 30, 2012 1:56:41am

re: #4 Eclectic Infidel

I give it a 50-50 shot.

Abbas has a chance to change the dynamic for the better, become a hero and show the world the Palestinians arew not like the rest of the Arab world- they will embrace democracy and reject a history of a dysfunctional Arab world.

It will depend on controlling Hamas and resisting the pressure from the Arab world as they keep their own populations focused outward.

Abbas has a big job in front of him, starting with shutting down the incitement.

A really big job.

6 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 30, 2012 5:38:43am

re: #5 researchok

I give it a 50-50 shot.

Abbas has a chance to change the dynamic for the better, become a hero and show the world the Palestinians arew not like the rest of the Arab world- they will embrace democracy and reject a history of a dysfunctional Arab world.

It will depend on controlling Hamas and resisting the pressure from the Arab world as they keep their own populations focused outward.

Abbas has a big job in front of him, starting with shutting down the incitement.

A really big job.

I'm say more like 80-20 again Abbas getting anything done. Giving up the idea that you're "the resistance" and moving towards governing will likely prove impossible, given the levels of Jew-hate and corruption in the West Bank. I don't see how Abbas does it without getting wasted. He'd be better off calling a new election and not naming a successor. Someone less tainted than him is needed.

7 Aligarr  Fri, Nov 30, 2012 1:29:11pm

You really believe your own words Destro ? Although Netanyahu may have given an excuse for the UN to prematurely exercise what anyone following history for the last 5 decades would inevitably conclude , although a bit crude , Netanyahu IS right . Abbas covertly and Hamas overtly both desire Israels ultimaste destruction , it just the time frame they disagree on . Try reading the Palestinian National Charter and the Hamas Charter . There was a FIRST step in Oslo to be taken by the Palestinians that NEVER was taken , in fact voted on 3 x's by the Palestinian National Charter ,and rejected 3x's , and that is the removal of the language in thePalestinian National Charter , calling for the destruction of Israel . Instead now Israel has TWO entities to deal wth each nullifying the other politically and idealogically on how to go about what is now contained in a second charter/covenant by Hamas , calling for the same thing .
Israel would be insane to allow a Palestinian State if and until this is resolved , and the issue of it's security ....which btw the "magnanimous UN " did not even address much less consider ....or perhaps it did , and voted in favor of this anyway ...which is more likely the case .
So let the palestinians sit in and watch ...without a vote . For Now . Israel will decide when and where and whether parts of it's Sovereign Territory becomes a Palestinian State .

8 Aligarr  Fri, Nov 30, 2012 1:31:18pm

Correction , that entity that voted on the language in the Charter , should be "The Palestinian National Council ".

9 Aligarr  Fri, Nov 30, 2012 1:35:08pm

p.s. The Palestinians ARE just like the rest of the arab world , they're just living safer and better lives in Israel . And at the end of the day , that doesn't matter at all to them .

10 Destro  Fri, Nov 30, 2012 6:50:45pm

re: #7 Aligarr

The national destiny and the right to self determination has nothing to do with the characters of a nation's leaders.

11 Aligarr  Fri, Nov 30, 2012 7:11:12pm

Nor did what I stated have anything to do with the character of anyones leaders . It has to do with the underlying nature of the conflict . Israels leaders have varied in character over the decades , but none were fools ,and all at the end of the day had the same central goal ,the defense and security of Israel .Israel does not have to prove to its critics , its intentions are correct , nor will it assuage it's critics no more than it will the arabs who all share th same Pan-Arab pipedream ,to see Israel's destruction . The UN 's action would have came with or without Netanyahu .

12 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Nov 30, 2012 8:03:29pm

re: #10 Destro

The national destiny and the right to self determination has nothing to do with the characters of a nation's leaders.

"National Destiny" depends very much on the character of a nation's leaders. Should a nation's leaders be of persistently poor character and ability, that nation's destiny in to end up on the ash heap of history.

13 Obdicut  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 5:52:45am

re: #10 Destro

There's no such thing as destiny.

14 Destro  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 10:03:09am

re: #13 Obdicut

Destiny is used with regard to the finality of events as they have worked themselves out; and to that same sense of "destination", projected into the future to become the flow of events as they will work themselves out.

Palestinians destination is towards statehood.

15 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 4:46:49pm

re: #14 Destro

Destiny is used with regard to the finality of events as they have worked themselves out; and to that same sense of "destination", projected into the future to become the flow of events as they will work themselves out.

Palestinians destination is towards statehood.

Likely so, but that is not certain. Things could happen that would prevent them from ever having a state. Don't talk too much of destiny, Destro, for to slightly modify a phrase fromTerminator 2:

The future's not set. There is no destiny but what we make for ourselves.

16 philosophus invidius  Sat, Dec 1, 2012 9:05:48pm

re: #2 freetoken

I'm not sure what you mean about Canada. The Harper gov't is to the right of Obama and, as far as I can tell, supports Israeli interests quite apart from any concern to placate the US.

17 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 1:47:04pm

re: #14 Destro

Destiny is used with regard to the finality of events as they have worked themselves out; and to that same sense of "destination", projected into the future to become the flow of events as they will work themselves out.

Palestinians destination is towards statehood.

Maybe. See, there's no such thing as destiny. With how long it's already taken, AGW may be drowning the world before then.

18 Buck  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 8:38:47pm

Destro, despite decades of history to learn from you have no clue what the goals of the Arabs (who actually have any power) are.

You really think they have "national aspirations"?

Maybe that has a different meaning for you that it does for everyone else?

Their national aspirations?

Their continued plans for ethnic cleansing.

And you cheer and support it.

*spit*

19 Buck  Sun, Dec 2, 2012 9:04:11pm

This vote came days after the Arab Palestinian leadership committed clear and measurable war crimes.

Firing missiles, rockets and mortars into civilians areas with no military target is a war crime.

To call for the destruction of another country is a crime. To call for ethnic cleansing is a crime.

And you celebrate the UN rewarding the people who committed those crimes.

20 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Dec 3, 2012 4:50:13am

re: #19 Buck

This vote came days after the Arab Palestinian leadership committed clear and measurable war crimes.

Firing missiles, rockets and mortars into civilians areas with no military target is a war crime.

To call for the destruction of another country is a crime. To call for ethnic cleansing is a crime.

And you celebrate the UN rewarding the people who committed those crimes.

QFT

21 Buck  Tue, Dec 4, 2012 10:34:13am

re: #2 freetoken

IOW, the no votes were not in support of Israel, but in support of the US.

I can tell you that in the case of Canada, you are wrong.


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