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1 researchok  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 1:03:42pm

Here's the WAPO article

2 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 1:50:50pm

I don't see the hypocrisy. I see bullshit in the CCRKBA story where it says,

“Senator Trotter, by his own action, has demonstrated the monumental hypocrisy of gun control advocates who try to disarm average citizens while reserving the right to bear arms for themselves alone,”

Trotter voted for a Large Capacity Firearm Magazine Ban, against 'assault weapons', and was in compliance with regulations.

Trotter is licensed to carry a weapon and has a firearm owner's identification card, according to police. He was also carrying a firearm control card issued by the Illinois Department of Financial and Professional Regulation, which allows him to carry a weapon during work hours and for no more than an hour commuting to or from work.

How does that constitute "trying to disarm average citizens"? Yes, he was dumb not to remove the gun from his bag when he got home from his last shift, and he may be guilty as charged of "trying to board a flight with a gun and ammunition in a carry-on bag", but he's not guilty of hypocrisy.

3 CuriousLurker  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 1:56:23pm

re: #1 researchok

Daniel, that article is about as screechy & inflammatory as they get. I'm not going to down-ding it, but...ugh. I thought you didn't like that kind of tone.

The WaPo article says the gun was found 4.5 hours after Trotter got off work as a security guard and he was licensed to carry it. He said he forgot it was in his bag—that's a stupid, careless oversight that's going to cost him in more ways than one and which (I would think) could potentially even lose him his right to carry, but it's nonetheless a completely believable one.

I''m not familiar with Illinois laws & politics, but your article says Trotter opposed a ban on assault weapons. There's a huge difference between assault weapons being bought by Joe Citizen and a carry license that's specifically for a security guard during working hours. Gottlieb's extrapolation that this single instance is "revealing look at the hypocrisy of anti-gunners" is as absurd as it is dishonest.

4 CuriousLurker  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 1:56:58pm

re: #2 wrenchwench

Heh, GMTA. Coke jinx!

5 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 2:05:06pm

re: #3 CuriousLurker

It doesn't even warrant the word 'article'. It's a press relaese that was submitted to PR Newswire.

Do I owe you the coke because you said jinx first, or do you owe me because I posted first?

6 Locker  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 2:23:33pm

The conclusions the author comes to with regard to this incident are ridiculous.

7 CuriousLurker  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 3:57:21pm

re: #5 wrenchwench

It doesn't even warrant the word 'article'. It's a press relaese that was submitted to PR Newswire.

Agreed.

Do I owe you the coke because you said jinx first, or do you owe me because I posted first?

Because I said jinx first!

8 Skip Intro  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 5:23:14pm

re: #5 wrenchwench

It doesn't even warrant the word 'article'. It's a press relaese that was submitted to PR Newswire.

That gets it an automatic downding.

9 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 5:34:58pm

re: #2 wrenchwench

I don't see the hypocrisy. I see bullshit in the CCRKBA story where it says,

Trotter voted for a Large Capacity Firearm Magazine Ban, against 'assault weapons', and was in compliance with regulations.

How does that constitute "trying to disarm average citizens"? Yes, he was dumb not to remove the gun from his bag when he got home from his last shift, and he may be guilty as charged of "trying to board a flight with a gun and ammunition in a carry-on bag", but he's not guilty of hypocrisy.

Sponsored 31 anti gun bills. Trying to get the text of each but the current story has buried that way down the Google and Bing searches. I can't cite any gun advocacy sites here with any credibility so those are off the table.

10 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 5:37:27pm

re: #9 Political Atheist

I still don't get where the supposed hypocrisy is here. He fucked up, he'll pay the penalty for it. I could see irony, but where's the hypocrisy?

11 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 5:39:54pm

re: #9 Political Atheist

Sponsored 31 anti gun bills. Trying to get the text of each but the current story has buried that way down the Google and Bing searches. I can't cite any gun advocacy sites here with any credibility so those are off the table.

I'd like to see the list of bills he sponsored (and I searched for them myself). I suspect that some of them are repeats that didn't pass the first time, if ever. I also suspect none of them were about "trying to disarm average citizens".

12 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 5:42:42pm

re: #10 Obdicut

When a person works hard to reduce gun rights then carries a gun....

13 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 5:45:21pm

re: #11 wrenchwench

Well I'm digging deep to get a list of those bills. He has allegedly (looking for video" spoken against the 2nd amendment as an individual right, contrary to a SCOTUS ruling. So we will have to see if more than a dozen bills at least amount to a general effort.

Crap this current story has just buried anything else on his gun stuff. Frustrating.

14 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 5:53:07pm

re: #3 CuriousLurker

IIRC In the mid 1990's he opposed CCW. In my view that is interfering with a legitimate gun access necessity for many average people with certain risks that justify CCW.

15 CuriousLurker  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 5:53:36pm

re: #11 wrenchwench

re: #13 Political Atheist

None of the bills he sponsored is jumping out at me, but I'm tired, the list of bills only covers 20122-2012, there are a lot of them, and some have cryptic names. Maybe one of you guys can find something.

16 Skip Intro  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 5:53:55pm
“Perhaps now he will realize how other citizens feel when they run afoul of some anti-gun law or regulation.

So I take it that this PR release is against stopping people from bringing guns on planes. I'm not so sure that's a winning strategy.

17 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 5:55:47pm

re: #16 Skip Intro

That's really not the issue. When an anti gun legislator carries a gun it's hypocritical. Oh and his seurity job may be unrelated to the violation after all.

18 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 5:57:41pm

re: #12 Political Atheist

When a person works hard to reduce gun rights then carries a gun....

Then they're not a hypocrite. I have no idea why you'd assert that this was hypocritical. He was working as a security guard-- a job where carrying a gun is part of the profession. Unless you can find something from him objecting to security guards having guns, you haven't shown the slightest bit of hypocrisy.

19 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 5:58:32pm

re: #17 Political Atheist

That's really not the issue. When an anti gun legislator carries a gun it's hypocritical.

This is an assertion. It isn't true. Nor is calling him 'anti-gun'. Is he in favor of criminalizing all gun ownership? Disallowing all private ownership of guns?

20 CuriousLurker  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 6:01:48pm

re: #14 Political Atheist

IIRC In the mid 1990's he opposed CCW. In my view that is interfering with a legitimate gun access necessity for many average people with certain risks that justify CCW.

Okay, but that's a different matter altogether. In the article you linked to Gottlieb mentions only "assault weapons" and then proceeds to call him a hypocrite based on that, claiming that he wants to disarm average citizens while reserving the right to bear arms himself. Supporting a ban on assault weapons isn't equivalent to wanting to disarm average citizens.

21 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 6:03:57pm

I admit the downdings are deserved. Twice. I should have made the assertion of hypocrisy myself, and not included the gun advocacy site at all. I should have realized how unwelcome that site with it's harsh tone would be regardless of anything else.

Second-My position on guns is one that many disagree with here.

Rather than edit now, I'll just say I assert the hypocrisy based on his anti gun record, and disassociate my self from Gottleibs words. And re state my support for any lawful responsible citizen with reasonable levels of training to own a gun, and get a CCW permit. Trotter is a classic anti gun Chicago legislator. He is dead wrong in numerous ways on that. At some level his gun carry is a violation of his oft demonstrated wishes for the rest of us.

His quote on CCW from '95 is to insist on a psych review of the applicant. He has had no such evaluation. Of course that was just a poison pill he was not going to vote for CCW unless no one could qualify except perhaps himself.

22 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 6:12:36pm

re: #20 CuriousLurker

Correct, I did not anticipate the skepticism about his position on guns. The links are so darn buried at this point. Easy to find a few days ago. He thinks people who want CCW's are wanting to be vigilantes. That does exist in tiny numbers. The vast majority of CCW holders have no desire to shoot in defense unless necessary. Like the theater shooting inn Colorado. CCW stats from Colorado strongly imply several people had guns in the theater. None of them went vigilante. They fled sensibly with the rest of the people that could.

23 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 6:21:18pm

re: #18 Obdicut

Heh. if only it were that simple. But alas it is not. He was carrying a gun while not working as a security guy. After all don't all security guards keep a gun in a garment bag?

Security guards get out of uniform and out way the gun along with the rest of the gear. Face it he was carrying in a manner unrelated to security work.

24 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 6:24:24pm

re: #19 Obdicut

This is an assertion. It isn't true. Nor is calling him 'anti-gun'. Is he in favor of criminalizing all gun ownership? Disallowing all private ownership of guns?

So anything short of the above is not anti gun? We disagree.

25 CuriousLurker  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 6:27:26pm

re: #22 Political Atheist

Heh, yeah, Gottlieb came across like a poo-flinging wingnut howler monkey and there are few things guaranteed to raise hackles here more quickly than that.

His snide comment about Trotter being a "South Side Democrat" didn't help matters. It sounded dog whistle-y like, "A South Side Democrat, you know, one of them..."

26 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 6:33:03pm

re: #23 Political Atheist

Heh. if only it were that simple. But alas it is not. He was carrying a gun while not working as a security guy. After all don't all security guards keep a gun in a garment bag?

Security guards get out of uniform and out way the gun along with the rest of the gear. Face it he was carrying in a manner unrelated to security work.

I'm 'facing' it, dude. He fucked up, and he'll pay the penalty for doing so. There isn't any hypocrisy.

So anything short of the above is not anti gun? We disagree.

It's a really stupid phrase that's obviously only good for propaganda. He's for increased restrictions on gun rights.

Hell, it's not even hypocrisy to say that you think all guns should be banned and own guns, any more than it is to say that you think people should be taxed at 50% and not pay 50% taxes yourself. If you're seeking a change to the system, what you do personally before the system is changed doesn't matter.

27 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 6:40:00pm

re: #25 CuriousLurker

Yeah. Correct.

Now the context to a gun owner/advocate is different. Chicago south side or whatever side is famously anti gun. They finally had to get rid of an egregious outright ban on handgun possession and sales.

Gun owners take this civil right as seriously as others take any part on the bill of rights.

28 CuriousLurker  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 6:50:04pm

re: #27 Political Atheist

Well, living in a poor urban neighborhood plagued by gun violence can change one's attitude about what's egregious. In the neighborhood where I lived in Jersey City you could hardly walk 5-10 blocks without coming across one of those little makeshift ghetto shrines to some fallen kid who was shot to death. Yeah, they were usually doing something stupid or illegal, but sometimes innocent bystanders got killed too. Either way it can change the way you feel about guns.

29 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 6:54:38pm

re: #26 Obdicut

A guy that votes against CCW concealing a gun that might not have a darn thing to do with working as a security guard and conceals a gun to carry it exhibits no hypocrisy at all?

Your tax example is awful. Taxes are a legal obligation to pay. Pay or go to jail. Not a good example at all. Gun possession is a right that we volunteer to use or not.

We disagree. Fair enough.

30 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 7:05:16pm

re: #29 Political Atheist

A guy that votes against CCW concealing a gun that might not have a darn thing to do with working as a security guard and conceals a gun to carry it exhibits no hypocrisy at all?

Nope.

Your tax example is awful. Taxes are a legal obligation to pay. Pay or go to jail. Not a good example at all. Gun possession is a right that we volunteer to use or not.

You didn't understand the analogy in the least.

We disagree. Fair enough.

Hypocrisy has an actual meaning. It involves saying one thing, and doing another. You have provided no evidence that he has done that.

Let's try another analogy. If I advocate that the speed limit on a local road be reduced to 25 miles an hour from 60, it is not hypocrisy of me to drive 60 miles an hour on that road until the speed limit is changed.

It is pretty insane for people to accuse him of wanting to reserve the right to bear arms to himself alone. That is the fatuous hyperbole here.

31 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 7:19:45pm

re: #30 Obdicut

Hm. Opinions vary. Just checking around the room with a couple friends (including one who dislikes guns) the hypocrisy is a legit point of view, as a matter of opinion. These things are subjective. More analogies are unimportant. Heck, even gun opponents are quite unhappy with the Senator for the carry and the violation.

For him alone? No just the usual elitist thing. I'm confident he'd let his legislative pals have CCW or guns. Just not people he does not know. 'Cause they need them and we don't.

Is there any chance you could withdraw an insult to a merely different view with "fatuous hyperbole"? We should refrain, I think we both argue on a better basis than that. Especially when we differ.

32 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 7:28:49pm

re: #31 Political Atheist

I don't care if their opinions vary. This is not a matter of opinion. It is not subjective.

For him alone? No just the usual elitist thing. I'm confident he'd let his legislative pals have CCW or guns. Just not people he does not know. 'Cause they need them and we don't.

See, when you reduce yourself to caricaturing your opponent like this, it seems really weird and desperate. Here you're claiming to psychically know that he is a hypocrite-- that's now your proof that he's a hypocrite. Because you just know, man.

Is there any chance you could withdraw an insult to a merely different view with "fatuous hyperbole"? We should refrain, I think we both argue on a better basis than that. Especially when we differ.

If you agree with this:

“Senator Trotter, by his own action, has demonstrated the monumental hypocrisy of gun control advocates who try to disarm average citizens while reserving the right to bear arms for themselves alone,”

You agree with fatuous hyperbole. I hope you don't. I'm already embarrassed by your claim to psychically know that this guy wants gun rights for himself and his cronies but not anyone else.

33 Political Atheist  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 7:58:13pm

re: #32 Obdicut

So you take my word "confident" and ascribe it as to mean some claimed psychic ability. And a small request to back up just a little in tone between us is rejected.

Noted and done with it.

34 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 8:04:01pm

re: #33 Political Atheist

So you take my word "confident" and ascribe it as to mean some claimed psychic ability. And a small request to back up just a little in tone between us is rejected.

Yes. You're 'confident' of something you have absolutely no knowledge of, and it's a serious accusation to make. You're making it glibly, without pause or consideration. It's not a good thing. It doesn't make you look reasonable.

I have no idea why 'fatuous hyperbole' is such a gut-wrenching term for you, but I'm not going to prettify that moronic statement that he's trying to reduce gun rights to only himself being armed with anything else. It's fatuous, and it's hyperbole. It's fatuous hyperbole.

This guy got arrested, as he should have.

35 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 8:41:44pm

re: #32 Obdicut

I don't care if their opinions vary. This is not a matter of opinion. It is not subjective.

See, when you reduce yourself to caricaturing your opponent like this, it seems really weird and desperate. Here you're claiming to psychically know that he is a hypocrite-- that's now your proof that he's a hypocrite. Because you just know, man.

If you agree with this:

You agree with fatuous hyperbole. I hope you don't. I'm already embarrassed by your claim to psychically know that this guy wants gun rights for himself and his cronies but not anyone else.

I would submit also that a member the Chicago Machine like State Sen. Trotter is not entitled to the benefit of the doubt. The Chicago Tribune has reported on the "for me but not for thee" attitude among Chicago politicians so many times that it is my opinion that the charge must disproved, and it stands unless effectively refuted. So I'm going to agree with RWC on this, because Chicago politics just is that bad.

36 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 8:54:45pm

So let me see if I understand the case for Trotter's hypocrisy.

Apparently we're not supposed to believe he accidentally put the gun in his bag, after working as a security guard, and forgot about it. Instead, we're supposed to believe he was a hypocrite -- because he really INTENDED to carry a gun on an airplane and just happened to get caught. If he's a hypocrite, it has to be because he really was trying to sneak a gun onto an airplane.

Does this make sense? You've got to be kidding. You're asking us to believe he really intended to carry a gun on an airplane, and that it wasn't a mistake.

Sorry, but you have not made that case, and this press release from a radical pro-gun organization doesn't help one bit.

37 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 8:57:26pm

I haven't seen the CCRKBA website before, but that is one extreme right wing site. I think the real hypocrites here are the people who run that site.

38 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:00:15pm

CCRKBA's "gun rights defender of the month:" Glenn Beck.

39 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:11:23pm

A vest pocket sized Beretta .25 ACP is not a security guards weapon. It's not even a good security guards emergency backup weapon. It's a contact distance weapon of last resort.

No, I'm sure he did not mean to take it on the plane. OTOH, that's the type of pocket pistol that a person carries everywhere everyday. He's scared of something so he has his "protection". He pulled strings and got his permit.

But he also stands up and says no regular citizen can legally do what he does.

When someone tells someone else, "do as I say, not as I do" that is usually considered hypocritical.

40 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:13:34pm

re: #25 CuriousLurker

Heh, yeah, Gottlieb came across like a poo-flinging wingnut howler monkey and there are few things guaranteed to raise hackles here more quickly than that.

His snide comment about Trotter being a "South Side Democrat" didn't help matters. It sounded dog whistle-y like, "A South Side Democrat, you know, one of them..."

It really should have been "Chicago Democrat", but that change made it really is a "one of them" situation, CL. Chicago has very serious problems with political corruption and dishonesty. That's part of why RWC found the press release so believable; because it's Chicago.

41 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:16:44pm

re: #39 William Barnett-Lewis

IL State Sen. Donne Trotter Speaks, Says He Is Still in the Congressional Race | abc7chicago.com

The senator has a FOID card and was licensed to carry the weapon on his job.

So yes, it is a gun carried by a security guard.

42 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:18:42pm

This story is all over the loony right wing websites, including infowars.com. It's complete bullshit. They're attacking Trotter because he's been successful at defeating far right legislation promoted by the gun lobby. There's no mystery about what's going on here.

43 Gus  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:22:54pm

$25,000 bond? That's too high.

44 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:23:50pm

When a website chooses to honor Glenn Beck as their hero, that really ought to tell you something about their agenda.

45 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:23:51pm

re: #43 Gus

$25,000 bond? That's too high.

Bond is typically set high for gun crimes, Gus.

46 Gus  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:27:58pm

re: #45 Dark_Falcon

Bond is typically set high for gun crimes, Gus.

Thus only the wealthy can bail out and form up a defense.

47 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:32:12pm

re: #42 Charles Johnson

This story is all over the loony right wing websites, including infowars.com. It's complete bullshit. They're attacking Trotter because he's been successful at promoting legislation that the far right gun lobby doesn't like. There's no mystery about what's going on here.

But he did screw up seriously, and its natural that his enemies are going to pounce on him for having done so. I'll not cry any tears over a gun-grabbing Dem who broke a law he himself supported.

re: #46 Gus

Thus only the wealthy can bail out and form up a defense.

Chicago being what it is, I expect Trotter to get a sweetheart plea bargain.

48 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:33:04pm

Also at the CCRKBA site: plenty of hyperventilating about Fast and Furious. And this: RKBA CUTTING EDGE OF FREEDOM MOVEMENT

“I’ll keep my guns, freedom and money...you can keep the change,” pro- claimed signs carried by peaceful citizens protesting government activity last month during marches in Washington, D.C. and throughout the nation.

Firearm owners – and about 100 million of us own about 200 million rifles, October shotguns and handguns – literally are up in arms.

Gun owners are disgusted with Obama’s nomination of anti-gun activist Eric Holder as Attorney General of the United States, disgusted that the Senate Majority Leader, Harry Reid of Nevada, ushered his nomination to successful confirmation in the Senate.

Gun owners are disgusted that Holder officially has called for reinstitution of the failed Clinton era ban on semiautomatic firearms.

Gun owners are incensed that Obama has called for Senate ratification of CIFTA, another Clinton era initiative, the proposed Inter-American Con- vention Against the Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, Ammunition, Explosives, and Other Related Materials.

If ratified, this treaty could be used by international bureaucrats to un- dermine and subvert the traditional, individual Second Amendment civil right to keep and bear arms of law-abiding American citizens.

Gun owners and people generally who affirm a right to self-defense are appalled that Obama’s first nominee to the United States Supreme Court, now Justice Sonia Sotomayor, testified during her Senate Judiciary Commit- tee confirmation hearings that she did not know whether or not a citizen enjoys a right to self-defense.

These people are nuts.

49 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:33:50pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

But he did screw up seriously, and its natural that his enemies are going to pounce on him for having done so. I'll not cry any tears over a gun-grabbing Dem who broke a law he himself supported.

re: #46 Gus

Chicago being what it is, I expect Trotter to get a sweetheart plea bargain.

A "gun-grabbing Dem?" Are you serious? Because he voted against concealed carry laws? Wow.

50 EPR-radar  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:40:12pm

re: #48 Charles Johnson

These jackass gun nuts can't even accept the fact that they've won on the issue of gun control. No Democrat that wants to get elected nationally, or in most state-wide offices, is going to do a damn thing about gun control.

51 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:40:57pm

Here's the true story behind Trotter's vote: Trotter Voted Against Allowing Illinoisans to Carry Concealed Weapons - Sun-Times Politics

Here is a full copy from the Senate transcript of Trotter's final argument against Dillard's bill during that May 4, 1995, floor debate:

"Yes, just before I close, I understand your intent, and -- and they're good intentions from your part; however, there's a lot of individuals who don't have those intentions. There's a lot of individuals out here who do look at this as an opportunity to be that vigilante, to be that support person to the police officer who isn't there, which is one of the things we addressed just yesterday when we voted for-- for -- in arming and also in empowering part-time police officers. What you're doing here just basically creating part-time police officers who have not gone through the extensive training, who have not had the psychological evaluations, who will be getting out there who feel now that they're--they are stronger, they are badder, they are tougher because they have this nine-shooter on their hip. And this just isn't it. And we're talking about are we allowing or just curtailing those who not have been convicted. According to this, it's an applicant who has not been convicted of a forcible felony under the laws of this state or any other jurisdiction within twenty years of the applicant's application for the flrearm - the FOID card, or at least twenty years have passed since the end of that period of imprisonment may, in fact, hold a weapon. So we're saying that here's someone who might have had a felony, who can still get a gun, just twenty years -- under the FOID card but they haven't done nothing in twenty years, but --now we're going to give them a gun. I think we--you're really stretching it here when you're empowering these individuals with these weapons."

Yeah, a GUN-GRABBING DEM!

That's pitiful.

52 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:42:19pm

I could not possibly agree more with what the "gun-grabbing Dem" said in the quote above. He's right on the money, and this law as written was insane.

53 The Ghost of a Flea  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:42:28pm

re: #51 Charles Johnson

Here's the true story behind Trotter's vote: Trotter Voted Against Allowing Illinoisans to Carry Concealed Weapons - Sun-Times Politics

Yeah, a GUN-GRABBING DEM!

That's pitiful.

The important thing here is the erection that one can only obtain in the course of retaliation.

54 EPR-radar  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:44:17pm

re: #51 Charles Johnson

From Trotters floor debate speech (in 1995): "...There's a lot of individuals out here who do look at this as an opportunity to be that vigilante..."

I see. The RWNJs are freaking out because Trotter is secretly a Time Lord, and knew about the Zimmermann/Trayvon Martin case of 2012.

55 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:44:20pm

re: #51 Charles Johnson

Here's the true story behind Trotter's vote: Trotter Voted Against Allowing Illinoisans to Carry Concealed Weapons - Sun-Times Politics

Yeah, a GUN-GRABBING DEM!

That's pitiful.

No, it's Chicago. There's no reason someone should need a 'psychological evaluation' in order to get a CCW. Training is a decent idea, but someone shouldn't need to get some shrink to sign off.

56 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:44:49pm

To sum up, Trotter voted against a bill that would have allowed even convicted criminals to carry concealed weapons WITHOUT TRAINING and WITHOUT PSYCHOLOGICAL EVAULATION, and we have people calling him a 'gun-grabber' because of it.

This is what extremism looks like, folks. Sorry, I am NOT down with this post.

57 EPR-radar  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 9:51:54pm

re: #56 Charles Johnson

To sum up, Trotter voted against a bill that would have allowed even convicted criminals to carry concealed weapons WITHOUT TRAINING and WITHOUT PSYCHOLOGICAL EVAULATION, and we have people calling him a 'gun-grabber' because of it.

This is what extremism looks like, folks. Sorry, I am NOT down with this post.

Extremism seems to have worked well for the gun nuts. Let's hope it fails for the rest of the RW agenda.

58 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 10:16:45pm

re: #56 Charles Johnson

To sum up, Trotter voted against a bill that would have allowed even convicted criminals to carry concealed weapons WITHOUT TRAINING and WITHOUT PSYCHOLOGICAL EVAULATION, and we have people calling him a 'gun-grabber' because of it.

This is what extremism looks like, folks. Sorry, I am NOT down with this post.

And I repeat, Trotter thinks anyone seeking a CCW should be required to have a psychological evaluation. I think that's horseshit, and its the kind of extraneous requirement that really annoys me. It's a clever way to argue that anyone who wants a CCW is some sort of 'Rambo-nut'. That's an argument you only get out of anti-gun politicians and activists.

So yes, Charles, that kind of talk says "gun-grabber".

59 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 10:26:02pm

re: #58 Dark_Falcon

No, he absolutely did NOT say he wanted everyone with a CCR permit to have a psychological evaluation! Please. Read what he said.

He said these people would be untrained vigilantes who do not receive the evaluation police officers do. He said NOTHING about requiring psych evaluations.

For Pete's sake.

60 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 10:36:14pm

re: #59 Charles Johnson

No, he absolutely did NOT say he wanted everyone with a CCR permit to have a psychological evaluation! Please. Read what he said.

He said these people would be untrained vigilantes who do not receive the evaluation police officers do. He said NOTHING about requiring psych evaluations.

For Pete's sake.

Even taking that interpretation, he's still wrong. Concealed carry should not be viewed as making one a 'part-time police officer' and pretty muvh all firearms organizations, training schools and publications make very clear that a concealed handgun is only for use to defend yourself or another person, that it is a tool of last resort. To simply assume that those seeking a CCW will feel "they are stronger, they are badder, they are tougher because they have this nine-shooter on their hip." is again to assume that those seeking a CCW are nutbars. So taking your interpretation of his remarks still leads us to the same place: State Sen. Trotter is anti-gun.

61 Charles Johnson  Thu, Dec 6, 2012 11:04:03pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

Right. He's "anti-gun." But for some reason he also works in a job that requires him to carry a gun.

This argument is beyond ridiculous. It was a bad law and Trotter was right to vote against it, even if it drives right wingers into fits of irrationality.

62 Spocomptonite  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 12:20:51am

re: #55 Dark_Falcon

No, it's Chicago. There's no reason someone should need a 'psychological evaluation' in order to get a CCW. Training is a decent idea, but someone shouldn't need to get some shrink to sign off.

I'm of the school of thought where guns don't kill people, CRAZY people kill people. Regular psych evals should be mandatory.

63 Varek Raith  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 5:28:40am

Crazy people should be able to get guns!
No voting without jumping through hoops!
/Makes total sense. Yes sirree!

64 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 5:59:29am

re: #51 Charles Johnson

A law of the kind he proposed might have stopped Zimmerman from carrying a weapon.

65 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 6:15:33am

re: #61 Charles Johnson
Genuinely sorry we disagree here.
This was not just abut that law. It's about a long record of legislative activity. Characterizing CCW applicants as vigilantes is wrong. It can happen but as a generalization it's wrong.

California CCW state law says good cause and good character is the standard to get CCW. That's not unreasonable. It's strict enough. IMO, as a The Illiinois Senators is unreasonable and an opponent in significant ways to the 2nd.

His characterization as you quote it is offensive to reasonable gun owners. We are not a bunch of people thinking like "past time police". We are sportsmen, and willing to defend ourselves from criminal assault.

66 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 7:01:09am

re: #65 Political Atheist

Genuinely sorry we disagree here.
This was not just abut that law. It's about a long record of legislative activity. Characterizing CCW applicants as vigilantes is wrong. It can happen but as a generalization it's wrong.

California CCW state law says good cause and good character is the standard to get CCW. That's not unreasonable. It's strict enough. IMO, as a The Illiinois Senators is unreasonable and an opponent in significant ways to the 2nd.

His characterization as you quote it is offensive to reasonable gun owners. We are not a bunch of people thinking like "past time police". We are sportsmen, and willing to defend ourselves from criminal assault.

Exactly. Charles, RWC and I aren't nutcases, but we are offended by this guy's words and we think those words are wrong. Don't waste your time defending a statement featuring a gross mischaracterization. The simple fact is that Trotter is wrong on Concealed Carry, and even the bill put before him being bad would not have made him right.

67 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 7:58:47am

re: #64 Obdicut

A law of the kind he proposed might have stopped Zimmerman from carrying a weapon.

A law requiring training or a psych eval would have stopped him from carrying? Interesting speculation.Especially since we have no standards for what this review would entail.

Good training would have kept his right to carry intact, taught GZ not to get out of that truck, and Trayvon would be alive, GZ unhurt.

68 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 7:59:27am

re: #66 Dark_Falcon

Thank you Dark. You comments are sincerely appreciated this morning.

69 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 8:54:06am

re: #21 Political Atheist

I admit the downdings are deserved. Twice. I should have made the assertion of hypocrisy myself, and not included the gun advocacy site at all. I should have realized how unwelcome that site with it's harsh tone would be regardless of anything else.

If it's fact-based, I don't care about the tone. The harsh tone was not the problem here.

70 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 8:54:37am

Just wondering if you have any comment about your source's endorsement of Glenn Beck, or their deranged anti-UN conspiracy theories?

You certainly aren't helping your case by linking to these nutjobs and their hysterical far right claims.

As for the training issue, maybe you missed it but the law Trotter helped defeat required NO training whatsoever.

71 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 9:02:09am

By the way, the claim that Trotter characterized all gun owners as vigilantes is just silly, and that kind of persecution fantasy is not helping your case either. Read what he said in the quote I posted, please. He made it very clear that he's not generalizing to ALL gun owners.

72 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 10:10:05am

re: #70 Charles Johnson

Just wondering if you have any comment about your source's endorsement of Glenn Beck, or their deranged anti-UN conspiracy theories?

You certainly aren't helping your case by linking to these nutjobs and their hysterical far right claims.

As for the training issue, maybe you missed it but the law Trotter helped defeat required NO training whatsoever.

I reject his endorsement of Glen Beck. That puts him in the category of hugely wrong on some things. You can say of many people that are right on other things. The hypocrisy is debatable of course. The violation he pointed out is not.

And as far as the source goes, what I did was put in the actual link, rather than a second hand link of what Gottleib said from another news wire or source. My intent there was to present the direct rather than an indirect link. For clarity. Not to rabble rouse. I admit I'm internet tone deaf sometimes. I thought it better to have a direct link. Gotleib can and is wrong in important ways. In his advocacy for a civil right, he is hyperbolic at times but on the right side of the right to possess guns.

Sure if I could roll back a day and present this differently I would.
I should have authored this top to bottom and not leaned on an advocates quote for anything. Point taken.

73 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 10:25:06am

re: #72 Political Atheist

I reject his endorsement of Glen Beck. That puts him in the category of hugely wrong on some things. You can say of many people that are right on other things. The hypocrisy is debatable of course. The violation he pointed out is not.

In this case, it's quite clear that we're dealing with an anti-government extremist here. It's not just about Glenn Beck - a quick look through that site uncovers all kinds of far right lunacy. Frankly, it looks like a Bircher site, with the anti-UN stuff and the raving conspiracy theories about Obama planning to take away guns.

And no, they are NOT right about this issue. Trotter apparently made a serious mistake and forgot he had that gun in his bag -- I have no trouble believing this to be true. It makes no sense to believe he would deliberately try to smuggle a gun aboard a plane, and you know it. So there's NO hypocrisy here.

The very fact that Trotter himself is a gun owner completely destroys the dumb claim that he's a "gun-grabbing Dem." What an irritating, stupid right wing phrase to see at LGF. He's an advocate for responsible gun ownership and he voted against a bill that was terrible.

This is all it takes for people like Trotter to be attacked and demonized by the right.

74 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 2:50:02pm

OK, I went looking for more info on Donne Trotter's record on gun legislation, and it wasn't easy because of the unbelievable deluge of right wing bullshit. Hundreds and hundreds of posts about how Trotter is a "hypocrite" for having that unloaded gun in his bag.

Several pages into the Google search results I did find something interesting that shows how dishonest this hit campaign on Trotter really is: Capitol Fax.com - Your Illinois News Radar » Sen. Trotter arrested for trying to take gun on plane

If you scroll up to the full post, you'll see that the comment I'm quoting here is from a local NRA representative:

Sen. Trotter is now facing a felony charge for making a mistake. I would bet that he had the gun with him at another event, packed his bag and with 1000 things running through his mind forgot about it.

The fact is that This is where Anita Alverez is incompetent at running her office. She is goign to have a sitting state senator, with no record (that I know of) sitting in the can overnight to wait for a bond hearing.

Just goes to show that they should be able to look at cases and say, hey I bond this one out, no record, FOID card etc etc etc. But Anita and her anti gun minnions can't get past the fact that people own guns and some people carry them.

It was a mistake, and the question is should he have is life ruined for a mistake?

Senator Trotter has had a mixed record on guns but with his new district that stretches down into Kankakee, he has kept an open mind.

I think the Sun times article is a hit piece devoid of context and taken from 1995. It's 2012/13 I'm sure nobody ever changes their minds. . .

That's right, folks. An NRA official is defending Trotter and saying he has a "mixed record on guns."

He's pretty freaking far away from being a rabid "gun-grabbing Dem," in other words.

75 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 2:55:15pm

re: #74 Charles Johnson

Thanks for doing the digging.

76 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 3:10:47pm

Also see: [Link: capitolfax.com...]

77 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 5:21:01pm

re: #65 Political Atheist

What I find disturbing about this whole discussion is that I don't think you're an extremist, and I don't think DF is either, but I see you giving credence to a right wing character assassination attack that's very obviously (to me, anyway) politically motivated, and basically dishonest. I'm not trying to be harsh but when I see the anti-UN conspiracy theories and the Glenn Beck stuff, and when I see the hordes of wingnut sites all parroting the same crapola, I have to ask... why do you fall for this without looking a little closer?

Donne Trotter made a really stupid mistake, and he's already paying for it, but turning this into an example of "gun-grabbing Dems" is beneath you.

78 Political Atheist  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 9:10:19pm

re: #77 Charles Johnson

I distance myself from Gottleib. As I mentioned above, I should have authored this myself from top to bottom. Taken more time. I do not agree with any of the UN conspiracy/Beck stuff. My point got soiled with that, and that's on me.

I'm going to give this some thought. Do some of my own digging and do a Page on legislation since the 2nd ruling and gun rights from a facts first perspective in due time. You will like it better than this one.


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