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1 freetoken  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 5:27:02am

linky no worky

2 alinuxguru  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 6:32:25am

Amen. I am surprised to find that printed in Haaretz. Here is a working link.

3 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 7:04:04am

The reason: Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and Syria won't budge on retaining their Kurdish areas and no diplomatic pressure is of any real use, as they fear national disintegration were they to allow a Kurdistan.

4 ReamWorks SKG  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 7:43:08am

Many people in the west are "pro Palestinian" because they hate Jews. Sadly, that's the reason nobody cares about the Kurds, etc.

5 Destro  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 9:13:05am

re: #3 Dark_Falcon

The reason: Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and Syria won't budge on retaining their Kurdish areas and no diplomatic pressure is of any real use, as they fear national disintegration were they to allow a Kurdistan.

re: #1 freetoken

re: #2 alinuxguru

re: #4 ReamWorks SKG

Didn't the USA vote against Palestinian statehood just like it would vote against Kurdish statehood?

And the difference is the USA does say Palestine will become its own state, just not until Israel signs off on the deal.

The USA has been responsible for Kosovo (which I think Israel does not recognize), East Timur and the recent recognition of independent South Sudan.

Israel's political establishment itself claims it supports an independent Palestinian nation out of the West Bank and Gaza, just not yet because the details are not worked out. In contrast, Turkey, Iraq, Syria and Iran all are against the independence of a Kurdish nation under any circumstance.

Also, mainstream thinking is that an emerging Palestine, once the details are worked out with Israel, living in peace and mutual recognition with each other will be a stabilizing factor in the middle east. In contrast, prevailing wisdom states that an emerging Kurdistan would cause regional wars and instabilities.

So bringing up lack of support for independent Kurdistan is a straw-man.

6 alinuxguru  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 11:58:32am

re: #5 Destro
So bringing up lack of support for independent Kurdistan is a straw-man.

So you fully support an independent Kurdistan? It quite clearly has all of the necessary precursors to become a stable, self-governing nation.

7 Destro  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 1:49:06pm

re: #6 alinuxguru

So bringing up lack of support for independent Kurdistan is a straw-man.

So you fully support an independent Kurdistan? It quite clearly has all of the necessary precursors to become a stable, self-governing nation.

Yes, I personally support an independent Kurdistan - and you should be thankful I am not in power to make that happen because it would lead to decades of war in the region. I am also for Scotland being free and the Basques being free and for the American Indian tribes to kick out the white man and declare independence and be recognized as nations in the UN. So be thankful I am not Emperor of the world.

The USA, Israel, EU, pretty much every nation on earth except right wing fanatic settler Israelis supported an independent Palestine (the USA and every Israeli govt said they were for working for recognition of Palestine out of the West Bank and Gaza following preconditions to be negotiated between parties) so suddenly that is not the desired outcome?

No third party nations have ever supported Kurdish independence (maybe the Greeks and Armenians in private just to fuck with Turkey). Everyone supported Palestinian independence - it is just that the Palestinians (according to the USA and Israel) moved "too soon" towards that direction.

You deny this?

8 War On Music  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 5:34:24pm

re: #7 Destro

solidarity.

9 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 5:36:45pm

re: #7 Destro

And thank you for confirming how big a nutcase you are.

Scotland isn't gonna be independent. Support for that there is the magical 27%. Or are you going to force that down the throats of the other ~70%?

Basque Country does deserve it, but I think at this point we should just be working to close the gap in education and income in the Native American communities.

What you remind me of is some cushy writer criticizing everything, but whose ideas are mis-informed and monstrous. The kind of person who tries to explain away things like the Holodomor, the Great Leap Forward, or the Cultural Revolution. You seem obsessed with pointing out the flaws in some countries, but will ignore the plights of minority in others. Considering your saying you wanted China to eclipse us, you must think the Tibetans and the Uyghurs are roadblock to be "removed."

And you judge me for what I say on Serbia. Never mind I haven't said I support it. All I said was that every action has a reaction. That is just a fact of life.

10 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 7:02:03pm

re: #5 Destro

South Sudan is an international effort. The US is not responsible for East Timor: That small nation's trouble were cause by first the Netherlands and Portugal, and then Indonesia after Portugal's withdrawal.

11 Destro  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 10:02:16pm

re: #9 ProGunLiberal

ou seem obsessed with pointing out the flaws in some countries, but will ignore the plights of minority in others.

Oh so it is like you coming up for excuses for denying Palestinian statehood based around the West Bank and Gaza? Which has been the American and Israeli position for 40 years now?

12 Destro  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 10:07:38pm

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

South Sudan is an international effort. The US is not responsible for East Timor: That small nation's trouble were cause by first the Netherlands and Portugal, and then Indonesia after Portugal's withdrawal.

And being pro Palestinian statehood based around the West Bank and Gaza has been the US and Israeli (and most of the western world's) position for the last 40 years. The only critique is that the Palestinians jumped ahead of the process.

Not one nation supports Kurdish nationhood. If you can't see beyond that clear fact you have your head so deep in political cultism you can't see reality.

13 Destro  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 10:14:38pm

re: #9 ProGunLiberal

And thank you for confirming how big a nutcase you are.

Scotland isn't gonna be independent. Support for that there is the magical 27%. Or are you going to force that down the throats of the other ~70%?

This is where you prove you are the nut job. Who are you as an American to tell other people they should or should not be independent?

If you ask me if I support Scottish independence, why not? Why should I say no if it happens? I have no investment in it one way or another - you seem to have a personal stake in Palestine not becoming a UN recognized state and thus you are biased.

14 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 10:26:04pm

re: #11 Destro

No. I will criticize the way the US treats the Palestinian issue, and Israel too.

But there are a number of other governments have a lot more egg on their faces on this. None moreso than the PRC and the 3rd Saudi State.

I stand by my statement that you seem to be a Noam Chomsky kind of Character. You know, the man who denies the killing fields of Cambodia?

15 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 10:27:42pm

re: #13 Destro

You seem to be unable to understand that I tend to be a bit over the map on Foreign Relations. I go on Country-by-Country basis. If anything I am invested in Palestine from the other direction, I have friends from their, so I am emotionally invested in them.

16 Destro  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 10:38:07pm

re: #14 ProGunLiberal

So you support Palestinian statehood? Or don't you as a "liberal"?

And for your information, I don't deny the Cambodian killing fields but I will bring up the fact the USA supported the Khmer Rouge at the UN because they were enemies of Vietnam.

Do you remember that American UN position?

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

After Vietnam had invaded Cambodia and set up a new government, the ousted Khmer Rouge leadership, including Pol Pot and Nuon Chea, retreated to the jungle along the Thailand-Cambodia border. Instead of becoming pariahs, they continued to play a significant role in Cambodian politics for the next two decades. The Khmer Rouge would likely not have survived without the support of its old patron China and a surprising new ally: the United States. Norodom Sihanouk, now in exile after briefly serving as head of state under the Khmer Rouge, formed a loose coalition with the guerillas to expel the Vietnamese from Cambodia. The United States gave the Sihanouk-Khmer Rouge coalition millions of dollars in aid while enforcing an economic embargo against the Vietnamese-backed Cambodian government. The Carter administration helped the Khmer Rouge keep its seat at the United Nations, tacitly implying that they were still the country's legitimate rulers.

The U.S. government's refusal to recognize the new Cambodian government and its unwillingness to distance itself from the Khmer Rouge was motivated by several factors, primarily animosity toward its former foe, Vietnam, and Vietnam's Soviet backers. Additionally, the United States did not want to sour its improving relations with the Khmer Rouge's longtime patron, China. What started as a diplomatic decision to manipulate the Sino-Soviet split and isolate and punish Vietnam became a moral blunder that ensured the survival of the genocidal Khmer Rouge.

17 Destro  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 10:40:57pm

re: #15 ProGunLiberal

You seem to be unable to understand that I tend to be a bit over the map on Foreign Relations. I go on Country-by-Country basis. If anything I am invested in Palestine from the other direction, I have friends from their, so I am emotionally invested in them.

So what was your problem with what I wrote? That I support Palestinian independence? You seem to also, so what is your beef? That I don't follow America's stupid UN vote denying the Palestinians UN observer status?

Or my critique of the strawman argument of why others support Palestinian statehood but not Kurdish statehood? As in they are apples and oranges?

18 ProMayaLiberal  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 10:48:13pm

re: #17 Destro

No, that you are some psuedo-revolutionary scum who wants to see others trampled in pursuit of your ideal. Never mind the people themselves in a certain area may not even want to go along with it. The ever wise trust-fund revolutionary somehow knows best.

And in regards to Cambodia, I despise what the US supported under Kissinger, and I think he needs to be extradited to a number of nations for questioning.

However, for all your criticisms of the west, you seem to have a glowing review of the PRC, even with their Cultural Genocide of the Tibetans and Uyghurs. To you, they must be a nuisance.

In regards to Kurdistan, there are some things to iron out. Such as the treatment of a number of minorities with Iraqi Kurdistan, for Starters.

19 Destro  Fri, Dec 7, 2012 11:10:30pm

re: #18 ProGunLiberal

A) When did I say anything positive about China? I am against free trade and globalization.

B) The Palestinians themselves want UN recognition. Why is someone like you who claims he is sympathetic to them denying this aspiration?

C) While I mentioned my position on Kurdistan sympathetic to their independence, I totally understand why no power supports Kurdish statehood (and gave an example) while they support Palestinian statehood, thus to the crux of the strawman argument comparing the world's support for independent Palestine and not so much for Kurdistan.

Let me know when you get you act together and answer the above.

20 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 8, 2012 6:57:45am

re: #16 Destro

That was a bit of realpolitik on Carter's part and its clear why he did what he did; Jimmy Carter believed that Richard Nixon's rapprochement with China was something worth maintaining and part of the price for this was supporting the Khmer Rouge in the UN. Ugly as that was, it was a decision born of power politics and in my opinion it was the correct decision as well, given America's interests.

21 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 8, 2012 6:58:54am

re: #12 Destro

re: #13 Destro

re: #19 Destro

Fling an insult, get a downding.

22 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 8, 2012 7:03:41am

re: #19 Destro

The reason PLL doesn't push as strongly for Kurdish statehood is because he knows it's just not in the cards. The opposition to it is just too fierce and that opposition would have to be overcome in no fewer than 4 countries. That's vanishingly unlikely to happen, and you should know that. Best that can be done is get those nations to respect the rights of their Kurdish citizens.

23 Destro  Sat, Dec 8, 2012 2:13:19pm

re: #21 Dark_Falcon

re: #13 Destro

re: #19 Destro

Fling an insult, get a downding.

I didn't see you downding progunlibral # 9 and #18 so fuck your faux outrage.

24 Destro  Sat, Dec 8, 2012 2:15:25pm

re: #22 Dark_Falcon

The reason PLL doesn't push as strongly for Kurdish statehood is because he knows it's just not in the cards. The opposition to it is just too fierce and that opposition would have to be overcome in no fewer than 4 countries. That's vanishingly unlikely to happen, and you should know that. Best that can be done is get those nations to respect the rights of their Kurdish citizens.

I do know that. It is what I said. Which is why support for Palestinian nationhood is popular and Kurdish statehood is not. In other words, you just answered the question: Why Palestinians yes, Kurds no?

Destro FTW.

25 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Dec 8, 2012 3:07:14pm

re: #24 Destro

Have a little bit of a bloated opinion of yourself, no?

Also, the kurds in Iraq have not been perfect. Better than the other two, yes.

However, they do not rebuild Assyrian Villages and have been known to appoint Kurds to represent minority groups, without the group even being given a voice into the selection. In addition, they are doing some serious efforts to marginalize the people already living in the Ninevah Plain and Kirkuk.

Would it be nice to have an Independent Kurdistan? Yes.

Would they be any better about minority treatment than the nations they are already a part of? No.


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