Pages

Jump to bottom

11 comments

1 researchok  Mon, Dec 10, 2012 3:49:30pm

Gun control is a controversial enough topic.

BS statistics only make sensible gun laws all that much harder to be implemented.

2 freetoken  Mon, Dec 10, 2012 4:18:30pm

Math iz hard.

3 Skip Intro  Mon, Dec 10, 2012 5:01:41pm
In fact, Hemenway found that the defensive gun use number is so high that it is a mathematical impossibility.

Once again, we're dealing with the problem of faith-based math versus math-based math. Why is it one side always uses the former?

4 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 10, 2012 6:03:29pm

re: #3 Skip Intro

Don't think for a minute that advocacy sites don't mislead one way or another. I don't want to get into a argument who is worse, just point out that advocacy sites bend the rules or mislead. Including HCI. That's the nature of advocacy. It is deliberately and (often enough) intelligently not objective.

If you want straight data you have to get it from the Dept of Justice, FBI or ATF and compile the data yourself. This topic is so highly politicized that there is no neutral party peer reviewed study in depth on defensive use of guns. There are reams and reams of raw data.

All those guns have not made us safe. Why? Too many of them are being used in criminal attacks. All these numerous gun control laws have not made us safe. Why? Too many criminals thwart these laws and use guns anyway.

What is the common element here? Criminal use. We have an excess of criminals that use violence. I don't need study to tell me what an innocent person needs if attacked in the moments before help arrives. Nor do I need a study to tell me what a criminal must be denied to protect us from his powerful weapons.

No matter what the real defensive numbers I offer two incontrovertible if controversial facts. One-The government can regulate guns. Two- The Second Amendment is an individual civil right, unburdened of any attachment to a militia.

5 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 10, 2012 6:06:20pm

re: #4 Political Atheist

All these numerous gun control laws have not made us safe. Why? Too many criminals thwart these laws and use guns anyway.

There are also crimes committed with legally owned guns.

6 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 10, 2012 6:10:53pm

re: #5 Obdicut

Yes of course there are. When a person becomes a criminal by whatever motive-Anger, mental illness, to steal money, to rape-Everything they have legally or not is a resource for them. Some criminals are stupid enough to commit crimes and use their own cars to get away.

Road rage comes to mind-An ordinary person loses his or her temper gets road rage and assaults with a deadly weapon-The car.

7 Obdicut  Mon, Dec 10, 2012 6:27:41pm

re: #6 Political Atheist

That's fine. I'm pointing out that what you said isn't correct. Gun control laws obviously have made us safer than we would have been otherwise. But because we have very permissive gun laws, we also have a lot of people using their own legal weapon to commit a crime.

8 Political Atheist  Mon, Dec 10, 2012 6:51:58pm

re: #7 Obdicut

That's fine. I'm pointing out that what you said isn't correct. Gun control laws obviously have made us safer than we would have been otherwise. But because we have very permissive gun laws, we also have a lot of people using their own legal weapon to commit a crime.

I did not say safer. I said safe.

I'm making a distinction that is both legal and moral. The very instant a person uses a gun to commit a crime, even a crime of passion, it's no longer a legally possessed gun or a legal act. At that instant and on it's no longer a legal gun. Or an innocent person.

What you call permissive or not I do not know. California is a very populous state. It does not have (IMO) very permissive gun laws. Arizona does.

What I do know is we have a civil right to respect and regulate.

9 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 12:35:08am

People who think guns in the hands of civilians is a bad idea tend to brush aside the constitutional question. Maybe it is a bad idea. That, of itself, would not suffice to justify reinterpreting the plain language of the constitution to allow the government to ban privately held firearms.

The problem is one of precedent. If there are no limits to reinterpretation, and anything in the constitution means nothing except what we now find it convenient that it should mean, we don't really have a constitution.

But now, what of the merits? The case for guns in the hands of civilians is infinitely weak if defensive usage is the primary building block of the case. What needs to be looked at is what happens in otherwise comparable nations where guns are not legal. Take Britain. Far fewer gun murders, of course. Fewer murders of any sort, though, which makes it difficult to unravel what part of the difference can be attributed to the presence or absence of guns.

But there is another interesting statistic. While Brits generally do not murder each other, home invasion burglary is much more common than you'd guess going by the murder rates. And there is a prima-facie explanation for this: the burglar has no worries going into a gun-free home. He (it's a he, almost always) is young, fit, and fast. The victim is not. Any fight will resolve in his favor. But guns are equalizers. He may still have an edge, but an edge is no good. A burglar must hit targets in a regular rhythm to make a good living at it. Sooner or later, if the homes he's hitting are salted with a portion of gun owners, his luck will run out.

The point of civilian gun ownership is deterrence. In aggregate, having guns around makes being a burglar so dangerous that most of those who might otherwise take it up instead find some other occupation.

10 peguyjaures  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 1:19:00am

re: #9 lostlakehiker

And not only having guns around makes being a burglar more dangerous, it also makes burglars more dangerous: in England or in France, where burglars don't expect to encounter firearms, they tend to avoid carrying firearms themselves and would rather try to flee when caught in the act, as harming their victims would result in much harsher sentences, and it's better for them to try their luck in the next house. Overall, very few burglaries end with a fatality on any side.
By contrast, in the US, where a burglar might expect deadly fire at any time, he will be much more likely to carry a firearm, and to shoot first; and many burglaries have a fatal issue. So "defensive" firearms, in the long run, have made burglaries more deadly. Thing is, there isn't really a way out of this situation.

11 lostlakehiker  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 2:01:34am

re: #10 peguyjaures

And not only having guns around makes being a burglar more dangerous, it also makes burglars more dangerous: in England or in France, where burglars don't expect to encounter firearms, they tend to avoid carrying firearms themselves and would rather try to flee when caught in the act, as harming their victims would result in much harsher sentences, and it's better for them to try their luck in the next house. Overall, very few burglaries end with a fatality on any side.
By contrast, in the US, where a burglar might expect deadly fire at any time, he will be much more likely to carry a firearm, and to shoot first; and many burglaries have a fatal issue. So "defensive" firearms, in the long run, have made burglaries more deadly. Thing is, there isn't really a way out of this situation.

There are all sorts of things to think about, true. Though if I were to go into the burglary business, I would go unarmed. Case the joint carefully, select targets that figure to be unoccupied, and tamely submit if my luck runs low and I encounter an armed homeowner. That would be the smart way to ply a dumb trade.


This page has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2016-01-01 10:29 am PST
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds Tweet

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Recent PagesClick to refresh
The “LOL Whatever Presidency”dailykos.com Say what you will about the Daily Kos and its sometimes far left off the reservation proclivities, but this particular article deserves attention. It succinctly and perfectly describes what we are now facing as the most dangerous Presidential administration ...
Rocky-in-Connecticut
23 minutes ago
Views: 20 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Tweets: 0 • Share to Facebook
Shares: 0
Comments: 0
: 0
Blueberry Pie Recipe - NYT Cooking Ingredients For the crust: 2 ½ cups or 300 grams all-purpose flour ½ teaspoon or 3 grams kosher salt 1 ¼ cups or 285 grams unsalted butter, cold and cut into cubes 8-10 tablespoons or 120 to 150 grams ...
The Vicious Babushka
44 minutes ago
Views: 56 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Tweets: 0 • Share to Facebook
Shares: 0
Comments: 0
: 0
Neil Finn - Don’t Dream It’s Over (Live With Strings, Auckland 2015) Neil Finn performing 'Don't Dream It's Over' at Auckland Town Hall, New Zealand, 18th July 2015.Listen to RNZ National's recording of the concert at radionz.co.nzRecorded and mixed by Andre Upston. Video by Kontent, directed by Simon Mark-Brown.String arrangements by ...
Thanos
12 hours, 50 minutes ago
Views: 87 • Comments: 1 • Rating: 1
Tweets: 0 • Share to Facebook
Shares: 0
Comments: 0
: 0
Political Donor Pleads Guilty to Investment Fraud Scheme ALEXANDRIA, Va. (AP) — A political donor and cable news commentator pleaded guilty Friday to federal criminal charges in what prosecutors described as a $30 million investment fraud scheme tied to his health-technology company. Sreedhar Potarazu, 51, an ophthalmogist ...
Thanos
13 hours, 24 minutes ago
Views: 129 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Tweets: 3 • Share to Facebook
Shares: 0
Comments: 0
: 0
Joe Bonamassa - ‘The Valley Runs Low’ - Official Music VIdeo► FREE ALBUM DOWNLOAD - goo.gl ● Official Tickets ●jbonamassa.com ● Official Social Links ●facebook.comTweets by JBONAMASSA instagram.compinterest.com ● Official Merchandise ●shop.jbonamassa.com
Thanos
22 hours, 8 minutes ago
Views: 101 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Tweets: 0 • Share to Facebook
Shares: 0
Comments: 0
: 0
Former Special Forces Officer: Gen. ‘Mad Dog’ Mattis Left ‘My Men to Die’ Mattis has not commented publicly on the incident, which was chronicled in a 2011 New York Times bestselling book, "The Only Thing Worth Dying For," by Eric Blehm. The book portrays Mattis as stubbornly unwilling to help the Green ...
Thanos
1 day, 5 hours ago
Views: 242 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Tweets: 1 • Share to Facebook
Shares: 0
Comments: 0
: 0
US Unemployment Rate Falls to Nine-Year Low Figures from the Labor Department showed the US economy created 178,000 jobs in November, while the jobless rate fell to 4.6% from 4.9% in October. The data adds to recent evidence of healthy growth in the economy, although wage ...
Thanos
1 day, 11 hours ago
Views: 225 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Tweets: 3 • Share to Facebook
Shares: 2
Comments: 0
: 2
Simple Crusty Bread Recipe - NYT Cooking Ingredients 1 ½ tablespoons yeast 1 ½ tablespoons kosher salt 6 ½ cups unbleached, all-purpose flour, more for dusting dough Cornmeal Nutritional Information Nutritional analysis per serving (10 servings) 301 calories; 0 grams fat; 0 grams saturated fat; 0 ...
The Vicious Babushka
2 days, 6 hours ago
Views: 235 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 3
Tweets: 3 • Share to Facebook
Shares: 0
Comments: 0
: 0
Live From Daryl’s House - ‘She’s Gone’ On this episode of Live From Daryl's House, Daryl Hall enlists Anderson East, the southern singer/songwriter, up to the northeast. East's unique fusion of soul, R&B, gospel, and early rock, in conjunction with Daryl, will surely leave you wanting ...
Thanos
2 days, 10 hours ago
Views: 266 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Tweets: 0 • Share to Facebook
Shares: 0
Comments: 0
: 0
Chocolate Silk Pie Recipe - NYT Cooking Ingredients For the crust 1 ½ cups ground chocolate wafers (from about 30 cookies) ⅓ cup sugar 7 tablespoons unsalted butter, melted For the filling ¾ cup unsalted butter, at room temperature 1 ¼ cups sugar ¼ teaspoon kosher ...
The Vicious Babushka
2 days, 11 hours ago
Views: 440 • Comments: 1 • Rating: 4
Tweets: 1 • Share to Facebook
Shares: 0
Comments: 0
: 0