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1 b_sharp  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 10:23:47am

Sounds pretty natural to me.

2 Destro  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 11:32:31am

That's ridiculous. Pretty much everyone before Judaism and Christianity would have gay sex (in the ancient classical world for example) and heterosexual sex - i.e. they were mostly bi-sexual.

3 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 12:07:38pm

re: #2 Destro

That's ridiculous. Pretty much everyone before Judaism and Christianity would have gay sex (in the ancient classical world for example) and heterosexual sex - i.e. they were mostly bi-sexual.

Because Asian cultures, Native American cultures and the Aboriginal Australians are just like the Greeks? Go look and see if it was ever easy to be a gay Mongol for instance.

You have so many axes to grind that you frequently drop them on your feet. The fact is that there are very, very few truly 50/50 bisexuals out there - particularly amongst men.

I certainly didn't choose to be straight. There was no free will involved. One day girls went from icky to fascinating. It was quite clearly pre-programmed in me. It seems utterly obvious that it could have gotten programmed another way. This is also supported by the fact that all of my gay friends just knew they were gay from puberty.

Now it is also supported by actual genetic markers - which most scientifically minded folks had assumed had to be there for some time.

It is also obvious to me that given my pre-programming, it would be the most awful thing in the world for me to have to change it. I would really hate to be told I was awful for liking women. Because of this, I am very sympathetic to any gay person who is told by someone that they need to be other than who they are.

And just on another note about your axes... Under actual biblical law, homosexuality that is a natural compulsion would fall under a wholly other category than homosexuality that was just a choice... i.e. all the awful stuff you would gleefully drag out in poor translation without the benefit of the oral law would not apply as you would gleefully hope it would.

4 Obdicut  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 12:15:02pm

re: #2 Destro

That's ridiculous. Pretty much everyone before Judaism and Christianity would have gay sex (in the ancient classical world for example) and heterosexual sex - i.e. they were mostly bi-sexual.

Before Judaism is a very small time period of recorded history. I don't think that's what you mean.

5 dragonath  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 12:50:02pm

I don't really care if it's a choice or a hereditary trait. It shouldn't make any difference either way.

6 Political Atheist  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 1:10:21pm

re: #3 Mad Prophet Ludwig

re: #4 Obdicut

Thank you both for your points above.

7 EPR-radar  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 2:36:25pm

re: #5 dragonath

I don't really care if it's a choice or a hereditary trait. It shouldn't make any difference either way.

Seconded. "We're born that way" is a weak and treacherous argument for gay rights. It invites stupid questions, such as "What if Mr. X _chooses_ to be a sinner?", and is non-responsive to someone who contends that gay sex is inherently criminal/immoral. If someone's behavior is criminal, the question of why this person behaves in a criminal manner is completely irrelevant. The criminal behavior simply has to stop.

"The sexual activity of consenting adults is nobody else's business" is a much cleaner basis for arguing for gay rights.

8 Aligarr  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 3:08:11pm

I think the study is B.S. Being homosexual or Lesbian ,is nothing more than a matter of sexual preference . Just as with Sadists and masochists .Theres nothing wrong with that, amongst consenting adults .There is no phsyiological difference between gays and straights .When it comes to sexual behavior , outside of any overt influence exerted by the parents , it's whatever melts your grits , among consenting adults . Sticking it in everyones face is where the trouble comes in . The Government has no buisness in your bedroom ,. and your bedroom behavior no buisness on the streets .

9 freetoken  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 3:57:12pm

I've linked to it twice already, but here it is again:

Homosexuality May Start in the Womb

Recommended over the USN&WR article.

10 Kronocide  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:39:11pm
Sticking it in everyones face is where the trouble comes in .

Merely existing and others in society having a problem with homosexuality is where the trouble comes in.

11 Holidays are Family Fun Time  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 4:50:47pm

Why does love have to be explained? Can't we just be a society that is happy for people who have functioning lives and help those that don't?

12 Destro  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:32:14pm

re: #3 Mad Prophet Ludwig

I kind of see all the religious kooks all agreed with you but homosexuality was well practiced all over the world without much comment.

We also see for example bonobo monkeys, hetero and homosexual sex is used as a form of greeting or stress relief or cultural interaction so one of our closest relatives has no such gay or lesbian distinctions.

We just know more about sexual relations by the Greeks because they (and the Romans) wrote these things down more so than other cultures. Men and women who would engage in gay sex would also marry and so nothing wrong with this. Sappho was married for example and the females that were her lovers would marry off.

Mongols had no written records of such things.

So to claim homosexuality is in the genes is silly. Sexual stimulation feels the same be it male or female doing the stimulating and romantic love is not gene induced.

13 Destro  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 6:37:26pm

re: #4 Obdicut

Before Judaism is a very small time period of recorded history. I don't think that's what you mean.

Before the Abrahamic religions became codified.

I do recall that there was homosexual practices in temples (sex as religion or holy prostitution) as part of the religion of the region before the Abrahamic religion started to take hold.

My favorite story from the Bible is the story where the "High Priest Hilkiah" discovered the long lost "Bible" that no one ever heard of before hidden/forgotten in the temple and told the king (Josiah) this and then he went about destroying the old religion in favor of the new monotheistic religion that he and no one else ever heard of before but was now the law of the land.

It is my belief that since homosexual sexual acts were part of the old religion that was being stamped out, the new religion that came to be (Judaism) was against it (just like aspects of kosher having to do with milk and meat came about as an avoidence of a pagan ceremony of boiling a young goat in its mother's milk and thus to be avoided as a pagan practice).

14 Cankles McCellulite  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 8:00:56pm

re: #13 Destro

Native American societies believed Homosexuals were special and possessed both male and female energy (double spirit). Parents who had a gay child were considered lucky. Women were also considered sexually equal to men. Yet in these society's where homosexuality and male and female sexuality were equal and completely acceptable most heterosexual people did not engage in homosexual sex. Or is the history of an entire world on earth not relevant to you?

15 Destro  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:04:26pm

re: #14 Bill Nye: People Magazine 'Sexiest Man Alive'

Native American societies believed Homosexuals were special and possessed both male and female energy (double spirit). Parents who had a gay child were considered lucky. Women were also considered sexually equal to men. Yet in these society's where homosexuality and male and female sexuality were equal and completely acceptable most heterosexual people did not engage in homosexual sex. Or is the history of an entire world on earth not relevant to you?

History requires written records. The Native Americans did not have written records and I will concede there are men and women who seem transgendered at birth and probably had those roles in some tribal societies but sex acts have always happened between same sex people not linked to any genetic predisposition.

For example:

In what is often called the world's first novel, the Genji Monogatari (Tale of Genji), which dates back to around the eighth century AD, eroticism is treated as a central part of the aesthetic life of the nobility. The sexual interactions of Prince Genji are described in great detail, in an objective tone of voice, and in a way that indicates that sexuality was as much a valued component of cultured life as music or any of the arts. While most of his erotic interactions involve women, there is one telling episode in which Genji travels a fairly long distance to visit one of the women with whom he occasionally consorts but finds her away from home. It being late, and intercourse already being on the menu of the day, Genji takes pleasure in the availability of the lady's younger brother who, he reports, is equally satisfactory as an erotic partner.

That episode is how I envision life was like till the rise of the behavior inhibiting religions. It seems unnatural to me raised as a heterosexual but as I read more examples of ancient tales of such conduct it seems "gay" sex was world wide, accepted and more or less unremarkable (with evidence only in such tales that survive).

16 Cankles McCellulite  Tue, Dec 11, 2012 9:12:50pm

True, most written and binary records were destroyed yet you said pretty much anyone before Christianity were homosexual or bisexual. The Native Americans did not have Christianity and there were no social restrictions on its practice yet it was not practiced as widely as you are claiming it should have been.

17 Destro  Wed, Dec 12, 2012 7:22:20am

re: #16 Bill Nye: People Magazine 'Sexiest Man Alive'

True, most written and binary records were destroyed yet you said pretty much anyone before Christianity were homosexual or bisexual. The Native Americans did not have Christianity and there were no social restrictions on its practice yet it was not practiced as widely as you are claiming it should have been.

How can we know? I think most of our ancestors engaged in sex the way "Tale of Genji".

In other words, I find sexual exclusiveness to not have been the human practice in a lot or places around the world. If it is genetic, we all have that gene.


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 Frank says:

I feel it's better to sing about these things ourselves and perform them with the people who it happened to than to have some journalist one day say 'then in 1971, one time when they were at the mudshark hotel...' But people have problems with things of a glandular nature in connection with things of a musical nature. They say why, music is way up here, and glands are way down there and they can't get 'em together, but then they are hypocritical because they take a band that doesn't sing about such things directly and couches their language a little and does it with a little choreography and say that that's great and that's real rock and roll. I maintain that there's no difference, we're just honest enough to get up and say 'this is this and that's that and here you are and respond to it' and the response is 'why... I'm hip, but of course I am offended'.