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1 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Dec 25, 2012 7:05:22pm

Israel should put Mr. Ahmed Halabiyeh on notice that if such a conflict erupts he will be the recipient of a Hellfire enema.

2 Red Falcons of America  Wed, Dec 26, 2012 10:45:12am

I wouldn't mind to see all of his remarks. The Jerusalem post doesn't actually quote him saying that there should be the resumption of "the resumption of suicide bombings against Israel."

"intifada" is popularly translated into English as "uprising", "resistance", or "rebellion". The Arab Spring, wildly supported across the west, was an intifada. I would support an infitada against Israel and Hamas.

Using scary Arab words without context (like Jihad, intifada, Sharia) is a common tactic of the right. If we consider ourselves progressive, I don't think we should fall into that trap.

3 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Dec 26, 2012 1:17:45pm

re: #2 War On Music

I would support an infitada against Israel and Hamas.

Wow. Really? You do know what Hamas means by intifada don't you?

in·ti·fa·da also in·ti·fa·dah (nt-fäd)
n.
An uprising among Palestinian Arabs of the Gaza Strip and West Bank, beginning in late 1987 and continuing sporadically into the early 1990s, in protest against continued Israeli occupation of these territories.

[Arabic intifa, shudder, awakening, uprising, from intifaa, to be shaken, wake up, derived stem of nafaa, to shake; see np in Semitic roots.]

4 Red Falcons of America  Wed, Dec 26, 2012 2:43:18pm

re: #3 NJDhockeyfan

Your point? There is nothing objectionable in that definition, unless you are for continued Israeli occupation of the territories.

I think that there needs to be a Palestinian uprising against continued Israeli occupation of the territories. They need to be made ungovernable for the occupying force, make the continued expansion of settlement activity unsustainable.

The first and early part of the second Intifada was relativity peaceful, expressing itself in protest marches, tax refusal, graffiti,barricades, and general strikes. These are forms of uprising that I am more then willing to support.

More importantly, they need to be directed not only against the occupying power, as well as it's junior partners in Hamas and Fatah.

I realize that you support the continued expansion of Israeli occupation and colonial settlement, so any action by Palestinians to assert there rights is a plot to destroy the world or some racist non-sense, but using Arabic words out of context to make it seem like there is far greater intent read behind it (or inserting intent, like adding "the resumption of suicide bombings against Israel" without quotation) does nothing for your side.

5 Buck  Wed, Dec 26, 2012 4:42:45pm

There is no occupation. The land in question WAS occupied by Jordan illegally after the 1948 war, however it is part of the land returned to the Jews in the early 20's. The same people, the same process at the same time created Iraq, Lebanon, and Syria.

Please look at a map of the British Palestine Mandate. That was the land that England was mandated to help return to the Jews. It was not given to the British. It was like a lawyer holding something in Trust. It was never part of Britain. Now note that 70% of that land was broken off (illegally) and given to the Arabs of the region. 70%!!!!

Arabs who do not want to be citizens of Israel, should not have gone to live there. Any who were there, and did not want to accept Israeli citizenship had every opportunity to move to what was called Trans Jordan. If they owned property, they were offered good money for the land (many sold). There was 40 years to do that. Again, they would not be forced. They could stay, and many did. They were given all the same rights and privileges of any other citizen. Certainly more rights that any Arab / Muslim country.

Legally in every way possible, the land was transferred (returned) to the Jews. There is no legal process, no legal document that shows that land to be anything BUT the land of Israel.

You can't say that Jews are illegally occupying their own land.

6 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Dec 26, 2012 5:36:43pm

re: #5 Buck

Actually, I'm pretty sure 'War on Music' is going to spout just that line of DERP.

7 Red Falcons of America  Wed, Dec 26, 2012 7:52:20pm

re: #5 Buck


Yeah, who doesn't love Greater Israel and Apartheid for those who don't accept being forced off there homeland or citizenship within a state that doesn't represent them.

I hope the rest of LGF realize that Bucks position is to the right of Likud and has no legitimacy anywhere beyond the far-right circles of Israeli fascism.

This isn't a legal matter. It is a political matter, and the conflict cannot be seen in some sort of legalistic manner divorced from reality. And the nature of the conflict has changed from 40 years ago, we now have 40 years of support for the 2-state solution based on 1949 Armistice Agreements.

8 Buck  Thu, Dec 27, 2012 6:10:23am

re: #7 War On Music

Yeah, who doesn't love Greater Israel and Apartheid for those who don't accept being forced off there homeland or citizenship within a state that doesn't represent them.

That is a complete lie. There are no facts that support what you say. It simply does not represent the truth.

There is no Apartheid, and no one is forced off of anything.

As far as being represented by the state, Israel recognizes the Arab population as an official ethnic and religious minority. (BTW Apartheid is the legal suppression of the majority by the minority, and a separation between ethnic groups)

There are Arab Palestinian officials in the government, Arab Palestinians within the police and the ministry of education. Arab Palestinians are elected to Parliament and an Arab Palestinian on the Supreme Court. Arab Palestinians are equal citizens; equal in everything without any exception. Israel gives the languages and religions of its various minorities official status. Thus, Arabic is an official language alongside Hebrew, and Muslim and Christian holidays are considered official holidays.

How do you think Jews and Christians will be treated in the new PA/Palestine? Are you really against Apartheid or just supporting Hamas in running one?

The armistice agreements were intended to serve only as interim agreements until replaced by permanent peace treaties. Some countries have taken that next step, some have not. Your idea that there has been support for agreements that have been broken multiple times is curious at best.

I hope the rest of LGF realize that Bucks position is to the right of Likud and has no legitimacy anywhere beyond the far-right circles of Israeli fascism.

Again, that is at most your opinion, and in no way is it based on any facts at all.

My position is based on history, facts and actual legal agreements. You position is (as you admit) not based on legal anything. And your reality is not based on history, but on opinion.

9 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Dec 27, 2012 7:05:26am
10 Buck  Thu, Dec 27, 2012 8:31:53am

re: #9 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Hamas still wants the conquest of all of Israel. Nothing new here.

And the UN encourages him.

11 Red Falcons of America  Thu, Dec 27, 2012 10:17:47am

re: #8 Buck

So, if the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem (and, according to you, Jordan as well) are all legally and morally Israeli land and thus no occupation exists, certainly you would advocate that all within the West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem, and Jordan should be granted full and equal Israeli citizenship, correct?

In East Jerusalem, you would advocate the end of special residency permits that can be revoked at any time without reason?

You would end the laws that deny citizenship to Israeli Arabs who marry Arabs from the West Bank?

I mean, if you are saying that all the land is Israels and that Israel provides full and equal rights to all, then that's great and I agree with you.

But you cannot do that and continue to maintain Palestinian Arabs as a minority, and full and equal rights for all Arabs in a democratic system will mean Arab majorities in a parliamentary system, which will mean the end to an signal ethnically-defined state.

And this is why Apartheid continues in Israel - because the Israel experiment is about demographics control and maintaining Arabs as a unnatural, permanent minority. Thus, Israeli Jews get special privileged afforded to by the ethno-state (such as a national flag that only is representative of them, national anthem that only is representative of them, marriage rights, land allocation rights, unequal access to utilities, etc etc).

I wonder, Buck - do you believe that America is a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant nation?

12 Red Falcons of America  Thu, Dec 27, 2012 10:18:58am

re: #9 Vicious Michigan Union Thug

Hamas still wants the conquest of all of Israel. Nothing new here.

and Netanyahu wants the conquest of all of Palestine. I wonder, who has the actual means to achieve there goals?

13 Buck  Thu, Dec 27, 2012 11:12:00am

re: #11 War On Music


You repeat the stuff that has already been shown to be be a lie, I am not sure what you hope to gain from it?

You would end the laws that deny citizenship to Israeli Arabs who marry Arabs from the West Bank?

Israeli Arabs already have citizenship and are not denied. The only thing this controversial law says is that if they marry a non citizen, the person they marry does not automatically get citizenship. Now you might also point out the reason for it. I mean that law didn't happen in a vacuum.

By the way you might want to compare that with other countries (like the USA) and decide if you want to throw the Apartheid label around a lot more.

In East Jerusalem, you would advocate the end of special residency permits that can be revoked at any time without reason?

Why would I want that? That sounds completely the opposite of what I would do.

Actually many of the Arab Palestinians of East Jerusalem -- numbering over 350,000, or 38% of the city's total population are applying for and obtaining Israeli passports.

The ones that don't go about their daily lives, shop at Israeli malls, use Israeli services, frequent Israeli restaurants and bars, send their children to study at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and receive Israeli social and health benefits.

But you cannot do that and continue to maintain Palestinian Arabs as a minority, and full and equal rights for all Arabs in a democratic system will mean Arab majorities in a parliamentary system, which will mean the end to an signal ethnically-defined state.

Actually that is not the conclusion I come to. Arab Palestinians are already in the parliamentary system. Remember.... not all Arabs are bigoted against Israelis. They don't vote as a block. I mean the ones that are allowed to vote. Who knows what the Arab Palestinians would vote for in the new PA/Palestine. After all they don't get that right.

Thus, Israeli Jews get special privileged afforded to by the ethno-state (such as a national flag that only is representative of them, national anthem that only is representative of them, marriage rights, land allocation rights, unequal access to utilities, etc etc).

So much bullshit in one paragraph, it is hard to wade through.

The "land allocation rights, unequal access to utilities" is just so much crap. You, supporting the idea that people, if they are Jewish, should not be allowed to live in certain parts of the country, really should not be talking about land or utilities.

Yes, the flag and national anthem represent the fact that this is a Jewish country. I don't see why that is a problem. I am not sure you could name a country where some group would have a problem with what the flag and national anthem represented.

You are purposely distorting the truth about what happens in Israel. You are purposely blind to what is happening in every Arab/Muslim country in the middle east. I could go on about what I think you are doing, but let me end with "Ect ect ect."

14 Red Falcons of America  Thu, Dec 27, 2012 11:31:42am

re: #13 Buck

important parts to take out of this:

I mean the ones that are allowed to vote.

That sounds completely the opposite of what I would do.

So, some Palestinians don't have the right to vote, and that Palestinians Arabs in East Jerusalem can have there residency revoked at any time without reason, a threat that no Israeli Jew has to live with. If we view the entity of Israel as Israel proper, Gaza, west bank and East Jerusalem, which you've previously said is the only legal, historical and moral understanding of the situation, then these acts represent the legal suppression of the majority by the minority, and as such constitute Apartheid.

Don't worry, the first step towards change is admitting that you have a problem (although I doubt that you think apartheid is a problem...)

----

Also, yes, I think America and Canada have a historic issue of Apartheid that we need to deal with at home as well as abroad. My criticism of Israeli Apartheid does not exclude criticism of American Apartheid and Canadian Apartheid (why should one single out Israel?)

15 Buck  Thu, Dec 27, 2012 11:54:09am

re: #14 War On Music

So, some Palestinians don't have the right to vote

Wow... I just assumed you would know that the only Palestinian Arabs who don't have the right to vote are the one that live OUTSIDE of Israel.

Gaza Arab Palestinians
Lebanon Arab Palestinians
Syria Arab Palestinians
Egypt Arab Palestinians

I am not even sure they get to vote in Iraq, but there is a better chance of that than in Gaza.

The only Arab Palestinians who don't get to vote in Israel are the one who refused citizenship. Even the Arab Palestinians who hold resident cards get to vote in municipal election.

Can I repeat that? Some Arab Palestinians refused citizenship. There are more than a million who did not. They get to vote and are not suppressed in any way.

Only two choices here. Either you don't know what Apartheid means, or you are an antisemite that likes to throw that around knowing that it is slander.

Apartheid like policies would be criminal in Israel. However that sort criminal activity is being perpetrated BY THE LEADERS of the Arab Palestinians. How many Jews do you think will be allowed to live in 'Palestine'? Do you really think any Jew will be able to run for office in the PA? I would bet that Jews will not be allowed to own properties, or have citizenship. Certainly the Palestinian PEOPLE deserve rights, and justice. It is the PA (PLO), Hamas, and Islamic Jihad who are against equal rights, rule of law, democracy and justice. Not the Israelis.

Also, yes, I think America and Canada have a historic issue of Apartheid that we need to deal with at home as well as abroad. My criticism of Israeli Apartheid does not exclude criticism of American Apartheid and Canadian Apartheid (why should one single out Israel?)

That paragraph probably means you don't know what the term means.

16 Red Falcons of America  Thu, Dec 27, 2012 12:11:39pm

re: #15 Buck

I like how your counterargument for the discrimination and unequal rights currently happening in Israel is a hypothetical based on an institution that doesn't exist and that you don't believe should exist.

let's recap. 1) you hold that Jews have a legal right to all of 'historic Palestine' including Jordan. 2) Palestinian Arabs who refuse to recognize this right have the option of leaving (ie forced out), or being second class citizens despite being a majority in that situation. 3) that despite not existing, "Palestine" doesn't have equal rights, and therefor that excuses any misdeeds by Israel when it comes to the failure to provide full and equal human rights to arabs.

I bet the West Bank doesn't even exist to you beyond Ariel.

Buck is the Meir Kahane of LGF.

17 Buck  Thu, Dec 27, 2012 12:21:51pm

re: #16 War On Music

Let's see now... I say:

They could stay, and many did. They were given all the same rights and privileges of any other citizen. Certainly more rights that any Arab / Muslim country.

AND

Israel recognizes the Arab population as an official ethnic and religious minority.

AND

Arab Palestinians are equal citizens; equal in everything without any exception.

AND

the only Palestinian Arabs who don't have the right to vote are the one that live OUTSIDE of Israel.

You say:

being second class citizens despite being a majority in that situation

I don't know how you get there and I probably don't want to know. It must be twisted and sick beyond belief.

18 Buck  Thu, Dec 27, 2012 12:41:00pm

re: #16 War On Music

I like how your counterargument for the discrimination and unequal rights currently happening in Israel is a hypothetical based on an institution that doesn't exist and that you don't believe should exist.

I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying that it is Israels fault that Hamas is a 'one vote only' fascist regime?

There is no legal discrimination and unequal rights currently happening in Israel.

let's recap. 1) you hold that Jews have a legal right to all of 'historic Palestine' including Jordan.

That is what was returned to them in the early 20's by the world. At the San Remo Conference, at the League of Nations and the UN when it was started.

2) Palestinian Arabs who refuse to recognize this right have the option of leaving (ie forced out), or being second class citizens despite being a majority in that situation.

Not at all what I said. They can stay or go. They have a choice. Nothing about second class anything. Nothing about being forced out.

There were people in Syria, Iraq, Lebanon and Jordan when they were formed. They could choose to stay or go. The regime that ruled, with its fascist lack of democracy, lack of rule of law, minority rights doesn't represent every one.

3) that despite not existing, "Palestine" doesn't have equal rights, and therefor that excuses any misdeeds by Israel when it comes to the failure to provide full and equal human rights to arabs.

Again failure to tell the truth.

I bet the West Bank doesn't even exist to you beyond Ariel.

When did Judea and Samaria become the West Bank? Who changed the name? What right did they have to change the common names used to describe that land?

It was Jordan when they occupied (illegally) the land in 1948. First they waged a campaign of ethnic cleansing to rid themselves of the Jews. They forced Jewish families who had lived there for thousands of years. They didn't offer them citizenship. Sacked religious buildings and cemeteries and renamed it "The West Bank". They had no right to do so.

Buck is the Meir Kahane of LGF.

You know that is not true, and you try and slander me anyway.

19 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 27, 2012 10:12:51pm

re: #16 War On Music

To accuse Buck of being a Kahanist is a slander. GSYH

GSYH = Go Soak your Head.


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