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1 Buck  Fri, Dec 28, 2012 9:09:52am
Why should Israeli Jews — whether in government positions or as private individuals — be allowed to use documents from before 1948 to reclaim ownership of houses lived in by Palestinians for decades when there are tens of thousands of Palestinian refugees with pre-1948 ownership documents who are not even allowed to visit their old homes, let alone sue for ownership and legally expel the current Jewish residents?

Patently and demonstrably false.

FACT is that over 100,000 Palestinian refugees have returned over the decades under the terms of Israel’s family-reunification program. Palestinian Arabs who lost property in Israel are eligible to file for compensation from Israel's Custodian of Absentee Property. Millions of dollars have already been paid by Israel in settlement of individual claims of lost property. Please note that no money has been given to any of the Jews who lost property in any of the arab/muslim countries. For example there is no Syrian Custodian of Absentee Property, and there never will be.

2 Buck  Fri, Dec 28, 2012 9:15:30am

Israel is in fact a country of laws and give equal representation in the law to people of all races and faiths.

Is there some land disputes that get settled not in favor of an Arab Palestinian? Yes. But they got time in a fair, unbiased court.

This was heard by a Judge.

3 SidewaysQuark  Fri, Dec 28, 2012 9:46:32am

re: #2 Buck

Israel is in fact a country of laws and give equal representation in the law to people of all races and faiths.

Is there some land disputes that get settled not in favor of an Arab Palestinian? Yes. But they got time in a fair, unbiased court.

This was heard by a Judge.

I don't make Israel out to be the demonic force half the world believes they are, but this is really looking at the situation through the thickest pair of rose-colored glasses I've ever seen.

4 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 28, 2012 11:46:10am

re: #2 Buck

Israel is in fact a country of laws and give equal representation in the law to people of all races and faiths.

Is there some land disputes that get settled not in favor of an Arab Palestinian? Yes. But they got time in a fair, unbiased court.

This was heard by a Judge.

Buck, there are cases of injustice in West Bank land disputes. But this isn't one of those cases. This case was indeed decided fairly and honestly.

As for the claim that Israel isn't a democracy, that isn't even worthy of engagement. It is worthy of a downding, though.

5 Red Falcons of America  Fri, Dec 28, 2012 2:49:55pm

re: #4 Dark_Falcon

I'm really digging Moriel Rothman and what he has to say, not only because he talks the talk, but also because he walks the walk (having been imprisoned for refusing to enlist in the IDF).

I think that his views of Democracy in Israel are far more nuanced and worth discussing. See: [Link: thelefternwall.com...]

One could argue that Israeli democracy is genuine but flawed within the 1967 border, where Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel can vote and run for Knesset, but I would retort – as would Dr. King, Thoreau, and, I’m sure, Rabbi Leshem – that true democracy goes much deeper than simply the right to participate in elections (and even that much-lauded factoid is looking unclear as of a recent decision to ban MK Hanin Zuabi from running).

With that, I recognize that the discussion of whether Israel within the 1967 borders is a democracy is a complicated one. And it is also one that can be safely tabled in this context due to the following fact: when Rabbi Leshem and Naftali Bennet [and Buck Kahane] speak of “Israel” and “Israeli Democracy” they are not speaking of Israel in its pre-1967 borders. They are speaking of Israel as including Efrat and Ma’aleh Adumim and Gilo and E1 and Givat HaMatos and Yizhar and Hebron II and perhaps even Sheikh Jarrah/”Shimon HaTzadik.”

And suddenly, the discussion is less complicated: An Israel that includes Efrat within its borders is not and could not be a democracy unless one of the three following conditions were fulfilled: (1) Efrat were to be annexed into Israel proper as part of a peace arrangement with the Palestinians, or (2) All of the Palestinians living in the West Bank and East Jerusalem were given the same democratic rights and privileges afforded to Jewish settlers in the West Bank and East Jerusalem (including, but not limited to, the right to vote for the government which controls much of their lives), or (3) if there were no Palestinians.

6 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Dec 28, 2012 6:25:30pm

re: #5 War On Music

That's far too complex. Here a better way of looking at Efrat:

1. Jews were chased off that land as well as the rest of the West Back in 1928-1948.
2. In 1967 Israel seized it from Jordan. Israel offered to return it (or at least the great majority of it) in exchange for a peace treaty, but Jordan refused this offer and later renounced all claim to the West Bank (but after that subsequently did sign a peace treaty with Israel).
3. Israel has tried to make peace with the local Arab population many times, but the Arabs insist that Israel must be destroyed. Hence, Israel has set up places for Jews to live, on land that rightfully belonged to the Jewish people anyways.

If the Palestinians wish such settlement construction to cease, they must first renounce the use of terrorism and cease their media's incitement to genocide.

7 Red Falcons of America  Sat, Dec 29, 2012 6:14:44am

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

It seems the fault is always with Palestinians and never with Israel.

We are not talking about settlement construction. We are talking about human rights and democracy, which is a far more complex idea. If your conceptualization of Israel includes Efrat and Ma’aleh Adumim and Gilo and E1 and Givat HaMatos and Yizhar and Hebron II and Sheikh Jarrah, where the majority of the people live under brutal military occupation, without democratic, legal and human rights, while the minority of people living in those areas have legal, democratic rights, then Israel is not a democracy, it is an Apartheid state.

Human rights are not predicated on a nations leaderships uses of violence or the media's "incitement". Human rights are the god-given right of all of humanity, including Palestinians. This conflict is too marred in false 'complexity'. The fundamental basis needs to be: Palestinians are humans, and humans have rights.

8 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 29, 2012 2:21:44pm

re: #7 Red Falcons of America

It seems the fault is always with Palestinians and never with Israel.

It seems to be that way because its true. In Israel, Jewish bigots who attack Arabs get prosecuted and sent to prison, whereas the Palestinians celebrate those of their number who hurt or kill Jews. That is the essential moral gulf between the two sides: Israel does not want to use force, but will if it must to defend itself; The Palestinians want to use force in order to fulfill murderous goals they wrongly think will fulfill national and religious objectives.

9 Buck  Sat, Dec 29, 2012 7:20:05pm

In 1948 400,000 Arab Palestinians chose to accept citizenship in Israel, and therefore received exactly the same rights and privileges as any other citizen of Israel.

Today a million Arab Palestinians are citizens in Israel and have all the same rights and privileges as any other citizen of Israel.

Over the past five years, about 3,000 Arab Palestinians applied for Israeli citizenship, and about 2,300 received it, according to the Interior Ministry. The number of Palestinians granted Israeli citizenship has increased each year during that time, from 147 in 2006 to 690 in 2010.

Currently the Arab Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem -- numbering over 350,000, or 38% of the city's total population -- go about their daily lives, shop at Israeli malls, use Israeli services, frequent Israeli restaurants and bars, send their children to study at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and receive Israeli social and health benefits.

War on Music (Red Falcons of America) is being completely dishonest, irrational, and obsessive to describe that as living "under brutal military occupation, without democratic, legal and human rights".

War on Music (Red Falcons of America) is being completely dishonest, irrational, and obsessive to describe Israel as Apartheid. I suppose we would want to define Apartheid. It could be anything I suppose. Mostly however it is defined as something unique to South Africa. If it were to be applied here you would have to see an official policy of racial segregation and religious supremacy enforced by the Israeli government. At minimum you would want to see some form of separation between ethnic groups in Israel.

The fact is that there is NO separation between ethnic groups in Israel.

The Arab population is an official ethnic and religious minority. There is incorporation of Arab officials in the government, and the integration of Arabs within the police and the ministry of education. Unique to Israel and in contrast to the most advanced democracies -- the Jewish state gives the languages and religions of its various minorities official status. Thus, Arabic is an official language alongside Hebrew, and Muslim and Christian holidays are considered official holidays.

War on Music (Red Falcons of America) knows all of this, and yet insists on continuing this slander.

The only possible explanations for this are no understanding of what the word mean, a hard core delusion or antisemitism. Completely dishonest, irrational, and obsessive posting these lies is NOT simply criticizing the Government of Israel. It is not simple criticism of Zionists.

As War on Music (Red Falcons of America) has in past said that they think America is also an Apartheid state, this might be hard core delusion.

My money is on antisemitism.

10 Buck  Sat, Dec 29, 2012 7:23:01pm

re: #6 Dark_Falcon

1. Jews were chased off that land as well as the rest of the West Back in 1928-1948.

Why don't we call this what it was? Ethnic cleansing. Chased off the land sounds to sanitary.

11 Red Falcons of America  Sat, Dec 29, 2012 8:17:14pm

re: #9 Buck

Please explain what is happening in Efrat and Ma’aleh Adumim and Gilo and E1 and Givat HaMatos and Yizhar and Hebron II. What is happening in Area C. Do Palestinians living around in Efrat and Ma’aleh Adumim and Gilo and E1 and Givat HaMatos and Yizhar and Hebron II have full and equal civil and democratic rights? Do they have access to the same roads as Israelis? Do they go about their daily lives, shop at Israeli malls, use Israeli services, frequent Israeli restaurants and bars, send their children to study at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and receive Israeli social and health benefit?

This is a semantic game you're playing. You get to choose to define 'Israel' as both Israel Proper and 'Israel' as 'Israel + Settlements'. So while you can say that in 'Israel' (Israel proper) Palestinians "go about their daily lives, shop at Israeli malls, use Israeli services" as a device to distract from the fact that if Israel is 'Israel + Settlements' then there is the practice of ethnic separation and military occupation.

Jewish settlers do not have to wait at military checkpoints. They do not have there public gatherings broken up by live fire and gas bombs. They are not shot when they storm IDF military bases. They are tried under Israel civil courts and not military courts, and are not subject to administrative detention (and the lack of Habeas corpus that comes with that). They have the right to vote for the government that controls there future.

Theses are all rights that are not afforded to Palestinians in the Occupied Territories.

Now, I realize that you are going to say "well they arn't Israel citizens" but isn't that the rub; Israel blocks the creation of a Palestinian state, but does not annex the area they occupy, thus leaving Palestinians living in Area C and B as non-entities.

Which is exactly where Buck Kahane wants them.

12 Buck  Sat, Dec 29, 2012 8:35:43pm

re: #11 Red Falcons of America

Please explain what is happening in Efrat and Ma’aleh Adumim and Gilo and E1 and Givat HaMatos and Yizhar and Hebron II. What is happening in Area C. Do Palestinians living around in Efrat and Ma’aleh Adumim and Gilo and E1 and Givat HaMatos and Yizhar and Hebron II have full and equal civil and democratic rights? Do they have access to the same roads as Israelis? Do they go about their daily lives, shop at Israeli malls, use Israeli services, frequent Israeli restaurants and bars, send their children to study at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and receive Israeli social and health benefit?

I have explained all that. Just like any country in the world, only citizens are allowed to vote. The fact that the PA/Palestinian leadership does not give their own people the chance to vote is certainly not Israels fault. It is not an example of Israeli "brutal military occupation, without democratic, legal and human rights" either.

This is a semantic game you're playing. You get to choose to define 'Israel' as both Israel Proper and 'Israel' as 'Israel + Settlements'.

I repeat, the Arab Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem (what you would call occupied) -- numbering over 350,000, or 38% of the city's total population -- go about their daily lives, shop at Israeli malls, use Israeli services, frequent Israeli restaurants and bars, send their children to study at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and receive Israeli social and health benefits.

I hope that the Arab Palestinian population will throw off the fascist dictatorship of Hamas and the PA. They can then choose to apply for citizenship in Israel and vote for whomever they choose to vote for.

In the meanwhile you are outright lying about what is going on in Judea and Samaria. I tell you what.... you and 30 of your friends go out and storm the closest US military base to where you live.... see what happens.

But before you do that, gather up a crowd and demonstrate _for_ ethnic cleansing and the violent overthrow of the Government.

Don't get a permit, and be sure not to disperse when asked.

Theses are all rights that are not afforded to Palestinians in the Occupied Territories.

Again, a full pressed lie.

Israel blocks the creation of a Palestinian state

And another bald faced lie.

leaving Palestinians living in Area C and B as non-entities.

And once again, a slanderous lie.

13 Buck  Sat, Dec 29, 2012 8:42:26pm

Now you explain to me how restricting where Jews should live is NOT racist.

Why should Jews be restricted from living in the communities you list?

Restricting Jews from living in certain areas has a history.

Is it not racist and why do you support it?

14 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Dec 29, 2012 10:24:46pm

re: #11 Red Falcons of America

Please explain what is happening in Efrat and Ma’aleh Adumim and Gilo and E1 and Givat HaMatos and Yizhar and Hebron II. What is happening in Area C. Do Palestinians living around in Efrat and Ma’aleh Adumim and Gilo and E1 and Givat HaMatos and Yizhar and Hebron II have full and equal civil and democratic rights? Do they have access to the same roads as Israelis? Do they go about their daily lives, shop at Israeli malls, use Israeli services, frequent Israeli restaurants and bars, send their children to study at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and receive Israeli social and health benefit?

This is a semantic game you're playing. You get to choose to define 'Israel' as both Israel Proper and 'Israel' as 'Israel + Settlements'. So while you can say that in 'Israel' (Israel proper) Palestinians "go about their daily lives, shop at Israeli malls, use Israeli services" as a device to distract from the fact that if Israel is 'Israel + Settlements' then there is the practice of ethnic separation and military occupation.

Jewish settlers do not have to wait at military checkpoints. They do not have there public gatherings broken up by live fire and gas bombs. They are not shot when they storm IDF military bases. They are tried under Israel civil courts and not military courts, and are not subject to administrative detention (and the lack of Habeas corpus that comes with that). They have the right to vote for the government that controls there future.

Theses are all rights that are not afforded to Palestinians in the Occupied Territories.

Now, I realize that you are going to say "well they arn't Israel citizens" but isn't that the rub; Israel blocks the creation of a Palestinian state, but does not annex the area they occupy, thus leaving Palestinians living in Area C and B as non-entities.

Which is exactly where Buck Kahane wants them.

1. Israel is not going to allow the creation of a state right next to it that is dedicated to Israel's destruction. no nation would do such a thing. If the Palestinians want a state, they must first show they are willing to live in peace with Israel.

2. I am in agreement with Buck that it is not the fault of Israel that the Palestinian Authority (or the Arab world at large, except Jordan) refuses to integrate the inhabitants of "refugee camps". Those people suffer because of PA misdeeds, not because of Israel.

3. "Jewish settlers do not have to wait at military checkpoints." Palestinians are made to pass through military checkpoints because this is the only way Israel can prevent terrorist attacks. Back in the 90's, many Palestinians worked in Israel but then Arafat launched his "Al Aqsa Intifada" and the resulting suicide bombings forced Israel to erect defenses to protect itself.

4. "They do not have there public gatherings broken up by live fire and gas bombs." As for public gatherings, Israel doesn't break them up at random with lethal ammunition. They break those up that are turning violent with tear gas and rubber bullets. Meanwhile, Palestinians have repeatedly targeted Israeli gatherings with suicide bombers and rocket fire.

5. "They are not shot when they storm IDF military bases." If you try to storm a military base, it's your own fault if you get shot dead. Military units of all nations reacted to armed intruders on their bases with deadly force. The IDF behaves no differently than any other army in that regard.

In other words, "Red Falcon", your post is full of BS.

15 Red Falcons of America  Sat, Dec 29, 2012 10:32:19pm

re: #14 Dark_Falcon

5. "They are not shot when they storm IDF military bases." If you try to storm a military base, it's your own fault if you get shot dead. Military units of all nations reacted to armed intruders on their bases with deadly force. The IDF behaves no differently than any other army in that regard.

In other words, "Red Falcon", your post is full of BS.

[Link: www.theaustralian.com.au...]

could you tell me how many Jewish Settlers where met with deadly force? Now, if these where arabs, the story would be different.

16 Buck  Sat, Dec 29, 2012 10:35:18pm

re: #15 Red Falcons of America

[Link: www.theaustralian.com.au...]

could you tell me how many Jewish Settlers where met with deadly force? Now, if these where arabs, the story would be different.

Your racist assumption is that every arab is met with deadly force and that is not true either.

Jewish settlers were forced off their land in the Sinai and Gaza. It was horrible, but it proves that there is no Apartheid.

17 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 30, 2012 6:10:15am

re: #11 Red Falcons of America

And I had forgotten but let me be the first to say "Fuck You!" for your comparing Buck to Meir Kahane. Stop insulting Buck in that fashion; Buck is sometimes wrong, but he is not nor has he ever been any species of Kahanist. The accusation is scurrilous and inflammatory.

18 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 30, 2012 6:12:05am

re: #15 Red Falcons of America

Got a full story? That one is behind a paywall.

19 Red Falcons of America  Sun, Dec 30, 2012 8:55:46am

re: #18 Dark_Falcon

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

re: #17 Dark_Falcon

So long as he continues to defend settlement activity and right-wing extremist settlers (like his recent "it's ok that settlers raided an IDF base, they where forced off their land" hypocritical nut-baggery) then I will continue to call him out for being a right-wing settler extremist. I don't care that it's "insulting"; his justification of military occupation is insulting.

20 Buck  Sun, Dec 30, 2012 11:37:57am

re: #19 Red Falcons of America

So long as he continues to defend settlement activity and right-wing extremist settlers (like his recent "it's ok that settlers raided an IDF base, they where forced off their land" hypocritical nut-baggery) then I will continue to call him out for being a right-wing settler extremist. I don't care that it's "insulting"; his justification of military occupation is insulting.

You know what it means to put words in someones mouth? In this case to place quotes and say that someone said or wrote what you know they didn't?

I never said it was OK that anyone attacked an IDF base. I was giving an example of Jews being evicted from their homes by the same government that you pretend to think only attacks Arabs.

Keep talking. The more you say, the clearer it will be to everyone exactly what you are.

21 Buck  Sun, Dec 30, 2012 12:19:10pm

More than 800 Palestinians have been killed and hundreds others injured since the beginning of the crisis in Syria nearly two years ago.

In the past two weeks, thousands of Palestinians were forced to flee the Yarmouk refugee camp near Damascus after Syrian jets bombed their homes, killing dozens of people.

More than 3000 refugees have fled to neighboring Lebanon, where some politicians and cabinet ministers are already calling for closing the border to stop the influx of Palestinians into their country.

I look to see if War on Music has put a proportional effort into bringing the real tragedy befalling the Arab Palestinian people to light. Is it still a tragedy if Arabs kill Palestinians or is it only news when Jews defend their lives and rights?

22 Buck  Sun, Dec 30, 2012 12:28:55pm

re: #19 Red Falcons of America

So long as he continues to defend settlement activity and right-wing extremist settlers (like his recent "it's ok that settlers raided an IDF base, they where forced off their land" hypocritical nut-baggery) then I will continue to call him out for being a right-wing settler extremist. I don't care that it's "insulting"; his justification of military occupation is insulting.

Funny coming from some who actually did say they "would support an infitada against Israel".

23 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Dec 30, 2012 1:45:00pm

re: #17 Dark_Falcon

And I had forgotten but let me be the first to say "Fuck You!" for your comparing Buck to Meir Kahane. Stop insulting Buck in that fashion; Buck is sometimes wrong, but he is not nor has he ever been any species of Kahanist. The accusation is scurrilous and inflammatory.

It is becoming a popular charge against supporters of Israel on this blog. It's obvious that the lizards making the charge don't know what they're talking about, nor do they understand what a Kahanist is.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Israel bashers on LGF entertain similar tactics to the Israel bashers in the SF Bay Area, with their misuse of terms.

24 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 30, 2012 1:59:14pm

re: #19 Red Falcons of America

That is not what Buck said. He spoke of Israeli settlers being compulsorily evacuated from Gaza and before that from the Sinai in the context of making the point that Israel isn't South Africa. Israel removes its own people when they violate the law or when it is needed to comply with a treaty. The very link you posted refers to a case where Israel evacuated a Jewish outpost by force, which shows the error in your entire argument.

25 Kdizzle  Sun, Dec 30, 2012 5:25:30pm

re: #13 Buck

Now you explain to me how restricting where Jews should live is NOT racist.

Why should Jews be restricted from living in the communities you list?

Restricting Jews from living in certain areas has a history.

Is it not racist and why do you support it?

I suppose the population of Mexico is fully within their rights of annexing El Paso then. And don't forget those Windsorites and their perfectly natural right to live in Detroit without recourse.

Seriously don't feed me this bullshit you irrational, inconsistent fucking nitwit.

26 Buck  Sun, Dec 30, 2012 6:20:26pm

re: #25 Kdizzle

I suppose the population of Mexico is fully within their rights of annexing El Paso then. And don't forget those Windsorites and their perfectly natural right to live in Detroit without recourse.

Seriously don't feed me this bullshit you irrational, inconsistent fucking nitwit.

Are you saying that Windsorites don't have the right to live in Detroit? Or Mexicans in El Paso? That will be news to them.

PLUS of course neither of those zones are disputed.

Restricting Jews from living in certain areas has a history.
Why should Jews be restricted from living in certain communities?

27 Kdizzle  Sun, Dec 30, 2012 6:32:03pm

re: #26 Buck


No I don't. Just using your logic to purpose that you must hold that position to be consistent.

And fuck you for basically calling me a defacto Nazi motherfucker.

That's some really Al Sharpton level of demagoguery there.

28 Buck  Sun, Dec 30, 2012 6:46:05pm

The bottom line. There was well documented ethnic cleansing in 1948 where Jordan illegally occupied that land. The people who benefited from that ethnic cleansing should not expect that they would be allowed to continue.

The article in this post is biased and filled with lies.

In 1948 that land was offered to the arabs. They rejected that offer and chose instead to steal the entire land. They bragged out loud that they planned to drive the Jews into the sea (mass murder and genocide). Not hundreds of years ago. Not in the bible, but within the last generation.

They failed.

Ask yourself, will you support the people who benefited from ethnic cleansing of Jews from Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria?

They got their day in court, much more than any Jew would get in any Muslim or Arab country.

29 Buck  Sun, Dec 30, 2012 6:47:08pm

re: #27 Kdizzle

No I don't. Just using your logic to purpose that you must hold that position to be consistent.

And fuck you for basically calling me a defacto Nazi motherfucker.

That's some really Al Sharpton level of demagoguery there.

You are speaking gibberish, nothing more. You clearly do not know my position.

Registered since: Nov 22, 2012... You are either a sock puppet, or you got your aggressive attitude very quickly.

30 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Dec 30, 2012 7:25:07pm

re: #27 Kdizzle

The restricting of places where Jews could live predated Hitler by centuries, and was widespread in Renaissance Europe. Again, get your facts correct before you start flinging insults.

31 Buck  Sun, Dec 30, 2012 7:46:48pm

Yep, it wasn't even Nazis in 1948 either.

Look for the pictures captured by Life Magazine photographer John Phillips.

Once again the horror and tragedy of Jews once more being captured or expelled from their homes in the Old Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter by Jordanian soldiers.

There is nothing in international law that allowed Jordan to expel Jews from their family homes that they had legally for hundreds of years.

So? Ask yourself, will you support the people who benefited from ethnic cleansing of Jews from Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria?


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thecommodore
WAPO’s Glenn Kessler Gives Three “Pinocchios” To Claim of Doctored Emails
It has long been part of the Washington game for officials to discredit a news story by playing up errors in a relatively small part of it. Pfeiffer gives the impression that GOP operatives deliberately tried to "smear the president" with false, doctored e-mails. But the reporters involved have indicated they were told by their sources that these were summaries, taken from notes ...

3 days, 13 hours ago
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 Frank says:

It has never mattered to me that thirty million people might think I'm wrong. The number of people who thought Hitler was right did not make him right... Why do you necessarily have to be wrong jus because a few million people think you are? -- Why they don't play my stuff on the radio
From the Real Frank Zappa Book (1989 Poseidon Press)