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1 Destro  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 7:38:57am
“What’s in Israel’s interest,” Hagel stressed, “is to help Israel and the Palestinians find some peaceful way to live together.”

That’s also America’s interest.

2 Bulworth  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 8:24:00am

I look forward to the day when every foreign policy-related nominee doesn’t have to first defend how pro-Israel they are, or how rumors of their anti-Israelness are much exaggerated.

3 Skip Intro  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 8:49:54am

Since when do the wingers need evidence?

4 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 10:08:29am

*FACE PALM*

5 Buck  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 11:49:43am

Hey, I am your friend, and they hate you. But can’t you see that it is better for you that I am their friend as well? That way I know what they are saying about you and they will tell me things.

-said no friend ever.

“The political reality is that … the Jewish lobby intimidates a lot of people up here,”

- Chuck Hagel


Now I understand that people want to put that on a scale and say that it isn’t ‘really’ antisemitism. They want to ignore that it touches on antisemitic tropes about Jewish control. Some even want to say that it is just a little bit accurate.

They want to tell me that they are against antisemitism, but they are only against “legitimate” antisemitism.

6 Major Tom  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 12:03:05pm

What is considered legitimate criticism of Israel to the Bucks of the world? How about an example of a time when you saw some criticism, and didn’t think antisemitism was behind it. Take as long as you need.

7 Buck  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 12:24:56pm

re: #6 Major Tom

No problem. I often criticize Israel policies and politicians.

I didn’t like the way Israel policy handled the whole “Arab Spring” political event. I would include the way they handled the short but sweet mini revolution in Iran.

I also think it is fair to discuss the economic state that Israel finds itself. “The rent is too damn high” resonated with me.

I don’t like the way Israel has traditionally not asserted itself at the UN and in World politics in general.

There is more, but none of that has anything to do with “The political reality is that … the Jewish lobby intimidates a lot of people up here”.

That isn’t in anyway “legitimate criticism of Israel”. It isn’t criticism at all.

8 Major Tom  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 12:58:00pm

So you would say that Israel should be throwing around it’s weight more, and assert itself, perhaps more overtly - on a state level, into the domestic affairs of other nations?

I can see why Hagel’s criticism of perceived intimidation upsets you…

But I think it’s a stretch to call it antisemitic… I, personally, would need more blatant examples. The phrase gets thrown around here everyday towards newspapers, websites, government officials, and celebrities in posted articles on this site. Its either an epidemic, or an exaggeration. I know what I see.

9 Buck  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 1:06:44pm

re: #8 Major Tom

So you would say that Israel should be throwing around it’s weight more, and assert itself, perhaps more overtly - on a state level, into the domestic affairs of other nations?

Not what I said at all. First of all, I don’t think that the people choosing democracy over totalitarianism is ‘domestic affairs’. Secondly it is not out side the norm for countries that share a border to have an opinion about the violence happening in their neighboring states.

Does anyone question when Turkey makes it’s opinion known with regards to what is going on in Syria? Saudi Arabia on what was going on in Saddams Iraq?

10 Buck  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 1:10:43pm

re: #8 Major Tom

Its either an epidemic, or an exaggeration. I know what I see.

Well, maybe you do, and maybe you don’t.

He made, and seems to still believe the suggestion that the Jews, in an inappropriate way, control the government of the USA.

Maybe he means it in a good way.

11 blueraven  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 2:41:56pm

re: #7 Buck

No problem. I often criticize Israel policies and politicians.

I didn’t like the way Israel policy handled the whole “Arab Spring” political event. I would include the way they handled the short but sweet mini revolution in Iran.

I also think it is fair to discuss the economic state that Israel finds itself. “The rent is too damn high” resonated with me.

I don’t like the way Israel has traditionally not asserted itself at the UN and in World politics in general.

There is more, but none of that has anything to do with “The political reality is that … the Jewish lobby intimidates a lot of people up here”.

That isn’t in anyway “legitimate criticism of Israel”. It isn’t criticism at all.

You criticize current Israeli policy from the right, so to you, that is fine. But if someone criticizes from the left, that borders on antisemitic.

And to say there are not several very right wing lobby groups like ECI that have a lot of influence over certain politicians is naive.
Just look at what Bill Kristol has done so far over Hagel.

12 Major Tom  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 2:53:51pm

“I don’t think that the people choosing democracy over totalitarianism is ‘domestic affairs’.”
Yeah, the only thing missing from the American Revolution was other nationalities asserting themselves while we were in a weakened state, fighting for survival. —-> /

“it is not out side the norm for countries that share a border to have an opinion about the violence happening in their neighboring states”
Totally agree. Israel was without any opinion?

“Does anyone question when Turkey makes it’s opinion known with regards to what is going on in Syria? Saudi Arabia on what was going on in Saddams Iraq?”
Saudi Arabia is worthy of many conversations spanning the gamut, publicly, internationally even… But, no Turkey DOES seem to walk about the world doin as they please. good call. / …I think Turkish people are worried about Syria’s violence spilling over their borders at the moment, but they do get deserved criticism over their previous brutalities, and the continued marginalization and oppression of the Kurdish people. No one is exempt from criticism is my point. No one.

13 Buck  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 3:30:17pm

re: #12 Major Tom

“I don’t think that the people choosing democracy over totalitarianism is ‘domestic affairs’.”
Yeah, the only thing missing from the American Revolution was other nationalities asserting themselves while we were in a weakened state, fighting for survival. —-> /

Ya, like the French. Could have done with out those guys sticking their nose where it doesn’t belong.

“it is not out side the norm for countries that share a border to have an opinion about the violence happening in their neighboring states”
Totally agree. Israel was without any opinion?

Yes, they didn’t express it very strongly. Neither did the USA, for that matter.

“Does anyone question when Turkey makes it’s opinion known with regards to what is going on in Syria? Saudi Arabia on what was going on in Saddams Iraq?”
Saudi Arabia is worthy of many conversations spanning the gamut, publicly, internationally even… But, no Turkey DOES seem to walk about the world doin as they please. good call. / …I think Turkish people are worried about Syria’s violence spilling over their borders at the moment, but they do get deserved criticism over their previous brutalities, and the continued marginalization and oppression of the Kurdish people. No one is exempt from criticism is my point. No one.

You really think this is necessary? You really need to argue my point of view on something so far away from the actual subject?

You know I am not the one nominated for SecDef?

We are talking about Chuck Hagel. I am not the only one to see the antisemitism in his past statements, and I am not the only one who is alarmed. There are Democrats and Republicans, Left and Right who see this as a point of concern.

Now if you really want to defend the man, please do. However there is nothing gained from trying to make this about me.

14 Buck  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 3:33:22pm

re: #11 blueraven

You criticize current Israeli policy from the right, so to you, that is fine. But if someone criticizes from the left, that borders on antisemitic.

And to say there are not several very right wing lobby groups like ECI that have a lot of influence over certain politicians is naive.
Just look at what Bill Kristol has done so far over Hagel.

Ding Ding Ding….

From my #5 a two fer. Both that it isn’t ‘really’ antisemitism, AND that it is just a little bit accurate.

Thanks for filling that in.

15 blueraven  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 4:07:30pm

re: #14 Buck

Ding Ding Ding….

From my #5 a two fer. Both that it isn’t ‘really’ antisemitism, AND that it is just a little bit accurate.

Thanks for filling that in.

You are anti-American, so fuck off.

16 Buck  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 4:14:20pm

re: #15 blueraven

You are anti-American, so fuck off.

No problem. Just curious are you Stephen Walt or John Mearsheimer?

17 blueraven  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 4:26:51pm

re: #16 Buck

No problem. Just curious are you Stephen Walt or John Mearsheimer?

There are some people who like to accuse people of being anti-Semitic without a shred of evidence, just because they dont agree on all the issues.
I dont think Hagel deserves that and neither do I.

You are a jerk who criticizes American policy and Obama (the left in general) all the time. Therefore if I apply your standards, you are anti-American.

18 Buck  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 5:42:50pm

re: #17 blueraven

Ok Blue… please enlighten me. What issue or policy is Hagel criticizing when he says: “The political reality is that … the Jewish lobby intimidates a lot of people up here,”?

You see, that is the “shred of evidence” (his own remarks), and I was very clear that I didn’t like how “it touches on antisemitic tropes about Jewish control”.

AND I didn’t accuse you of “being anti-Semitic”. You took that on by yourself.

But you can prove it if you want to answer.

What issue or policy is Hagel criticizing when he says: “The political reality is that … the Jewish lobby intimidates a lot of people up here,”?

19 blueraven  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 5:47:38pm

re: #18 Buck

Ok Blue… please enlighten me. What issue or policy is Hagel criticizing when he says: “The political reality is that … the Jewish lobby intimidates a lot of people up here,”?

You see, that is the “shred of evidence” (his own remarks), and I was very clear that I didn’t like how “it touches on antisemitic tropes about Jewish control”.

AND I didn’t accuse you of “being anti-Semitic”. You took that on by yourself.

But you can prove it if you want to answer.

What issue or policy is Hagel criticizing when he says: “The political reality is that … the Jewish lobby intimidates a lot of people up here,”?

Hagel is criticizing group think and I dont need to prove anything to you Buck.

20 Buck  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 5:54:30pm

re: #19 blueraven

Hagel is criticizing group think and I dont need to prove anything to you Buck.

Really? Just group think in general? You read into this that he is saying don’t just think what the group thinks.

Or maybe it is a specific group and a specific thing that they think.

What group and what do they think?

21 blueraven  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 6:05:07pm

re: #20 Buck

Really? Just group think in general? You read into this that he is saying don’t just think what the group thinks.

Or maybe it is a specific group and a specific thing that they think.

What group and what do they think?

How about ECI? Do we all have to agree with their efforts?

22 Buck  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 6:11:11pm

re: #21 blueraven

How about ECI? Do we all have to agree with their efforts?

Are you changing the subject?

ECI? Top six Google results for ECI.

Election Commission of India?
European Color Initiative?
Early Childhood Intervention?
Employment Cost Index?
Eastwood Collegiate Institute?
Eze Castle Integration?

Is Chuck Hagel only making legitimate criticism of Israel policy when he says “The political reality is that … the Jewish lobby intimidates a lot of people up here,”? Is that legitimate criticism of Israel policy? and if so, what policy?

23 blueraven  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 6:18:50pm

Emergency Committee for Israel

[Link: www.committeeforisrael.com…]

24 Buck  Tue, Jan 8, 2013 7:11:37pm

re: #23 blueraven

Emergency Committee for Israel

[Link: www.committeeforisrael.com…]


How about ECI? Do we all have to agree with their efforts?

So who is suggesting that we all have to agree with anyones efforts?

I don’t understand your question?


What does


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