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1 Skip Intro  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 8:54:04am
If you decide to get a carry permit, get lots of training

Are you saying that training is optional?

2 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 9:55:12am

You are an irresponsible parent in my eyes if you have firearms in a house with children - the stats overwhelmingly indicate that everyone’s in more danger having a gun in the house than not. (I read somewhere the other night that you or a family member are 41X more likely to either be shot or to shoot someone in anger, depression, or by accident than you are to repel a home invader) Remember that you might be highly competent with firearm safety, but is everyone who ever might enter your house also highly competent with firearm safety, including your children’s friends?

3 Political Atheist  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 10:45:01am

re: #1 Skip Intro
No I’m saying a great deal of training is what you need for CCW. Of course that varies a lot, say if it’s a persons first gun as compared to a frequent handgun target or hunter shooter.

Lifelong handgun shooters need far less training for CCW. They already possess many of the basic handling and safety habits.

4 Political Atheist  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 10:58:35am

re: #2 Randall Gross

If your guns and ammunition are properly stored, visitors with kids are not an issue. It’s no big deal to mave a gun from a defense fast release safe to the strong slow access safe. Or unload and strongly trigger lock all the guns.

With all due respect for your opinion, there are many people like diamond dealers and jewelers that face a very strong threat of armed assault and robbery. Many of them have kids. Unfortunately we have no way to statistically break out that group. Which is exactly where these kinds of numbers fail to guide us well in detail.

5 Randall Gross  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:30:57am

re: #4 Political Atheist

My opinion’s not going to change - even in the event your “jewelry dealers with kids and guns” get robbed the chances of them and/or their children being shot are much greater if they have a gun. It’s just the stats, it’s just how it is.

6 researchok  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 11:49:57am

For better or worse, stories like this are our reality.

Until we deal with the culture, nothing will change.

Randall is right- the stats tell the story more clearly than anything else. Owning a weapon does ncrese the chances of a fatal gun deaths.

The fact there are criminals out there who access guns is a separate and distinct problem.

Cigarette smoking declined when the prevailing culture was upended- and not a minute sooner.

I am not advocating for taking away thge right to own guns. I am advocating for an entire new framework in which we control that.

7 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:20:37pm

I’d rather see an increase in training classes than an increase purchases.

I’d might be nice if people who already owned signed-up for training classes, either because they have never had any training or as a refresher.

8 FemNaziBitch  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 12:35:55pm

re: #4 Political Atheist

If your guns and ammunition are properly stored, visitors with kids are not an issue. It’s no big deal to mave a gun from a defense fast release safe to the strong slow access safe. Or unload and strongly trigger lock all the guns.

With all due respect for your opinion, there are many people like diamond dealers and jewelers that face a very strong threat of armed assault and robbery. Many of them have kids. Unfortunately we have no way to statistically break out that group. Which is exactly where these kinds of numbers fail to guide us well in detail.

Congress (gun lobby) has made it impossible for proper research to be done.

We don’t know how many instances of successful self-defense with a firearm discharge because there is no box to be checked on the police report for it. The data is not collected.

Mostly what we have is a compilation of data and anecdotes that have been scientifically theorized. While I think much of the information coming from academics and government number crushers reflects accurate guesses, they are limited by the data available. The rhetoric from the gun lobby is severely flawed
and emotionally charged.

Trying to create effective policy from the Public Health perspective is extremely difficult.

David Hemenway at Harvard has explained this in his book:

This ignorance about gun deaths stands in sharp contrast to the wealth of useful data available on motor-vehicle fatalities, for which more than 100 pieces of information per death are collected consistently in every state.

He is also one of the few who seems to be able to keep emotion out of the equation when talking about regulation.

In the 1990s, Smith and Wesson decided they wanted to be a responsible corporate citizen — they announced that they were working with the White House to increase gun safety — for example, whenever they’d sell a gun, they’d include a gun lock. That seems like a great idea to me; after all, cars come with seatbelts. But the gun lobby was incensed. They boycotted Smith and Wesson. And they forced that CEO out.

In his book talk on C-SPAN he talked more about the difficulty of collecting and comparing data.

I really recommend watching it because I think the Public Health approach is the best avenue we have to combat this issue.

9 Skip Intro  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 1:59:39pm

re: #3 Political Atheist

No I’m saying a great deal of training is what you need for CCW. Of course that varies a lot, say if it’s a persons first gun as compared to a frequent handgun target or hunter shooter.

That’s not what my question is. Simply put, is it required that people who apply for CCW take training class(es) before the permit is issued? Since I have never known anyone who felt the need to carry a concealed weapon, I really don’t know the answer.

10 Political Atheist  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 4:05:10pm

re: #9 Skip Intro

That’s not what my question is. Simply put, is it required that people who apply for CCW take training class(es) before the permit is issued? Since I have never known anyone who felt the need to carry a concealed weapon, I really don’t know the answer.

It should be required everywhere. It is not. Not even in California. Disclosure-Such a requirement would put money in my pocket as a trainer. But my overarching motive is public safety.

11 Political Atheist  Wed, Jan 9, 2013 4:08:29pm

re: #5 Randall Gross

My opinion’s not going to change - even in the event your “jewelry dealers with kids and guns” get robbed the chances of them and/or their children being shot are much greater if they have a gun. It’s just the stats, it’s just how it is.

I don’t expect it will Randall and that’s fine. Neither will mine. What might be a good thing is fair debate between us here in Pages or in topics. We can each put our points forward, and I hope add some sensible debate to a topic rife with emotion.

Police have kids too. Are they irresponsible parents if they keep a gun at home? I say not. What say you?

12 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 10, 2013 6:23:37am

re: #11 Political Atheist

I’d say keeping their guns in the house with their kids is another risk and sacrifice the police take to make the rest of us safer, even though it endangers their kids.


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