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103 comments

1 Buck  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:16:48am

Khaled Abu Toameh had his Facebook profile “suspended” by an employee of Facebook in part because of the reaction to this article.

2 bratwurst  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:58:53am

Gatestone Institute…hmmm…why have I heard that name before? Oh yeah, because it’s tied to far-right lunatic and persona non grata on LGF Geert Wilders!

3 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:25:57am

You guys (Buck, EI, etc) should really check your sources.
I mean, I know you…dislike Muslims, but damn, do try harder.
;)

4 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:30:49am

re: #2 bratwurst

E gad, Fjordman too. O_o

Distinguished Scholars

Soeren Kern
Harold Rhode
Fjordman (2013)
Pablo Sorin

5 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:32:20am

re: #4 CuriousLurker

E gad, Fjordman too. O_o

Oh dear.

6 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:37:25am

re: #5 Varek Raith

Oh dear.

Yeah, and you see Zuhdi Jasser right in there with them? Ugh. I’m outta here. Charles is gonna be pissed.

7 122 Year Old Obama  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:38:29am

And this got updings. This does not bode well for those involved.

8 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:36:49am

This was deleted by one of the monitors (as it should have been) but I’m restoring it because when people start losing their LGF accounts because of posting articles from sources that are affiliated with bigots and white nationalists like Geert Wilders and Fjordman, I don’t want there to be any mystery about why it’s happening.

9 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:47:47am

re: #8 Charles Johnson

Google shut down GoV last night. Good riddance.

“Please note: Google has pulled the Gates of Vienna blog. It happened suddenly, around 6-7 hours ago. The Baron is on the case.”

10 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 11:04:44am

re: #6 CuriousLurker

Need to point out that polling among Palestinian Christians shows them being friendlier to the Palestinians.

In fact, the incident that pushed me to my current position was the Price Tag Attack on Dormition Abbey in October. That was a step too far.

11 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 11:16:31am

re: #9 Bubblehead II

Google shut down GoV last night. Good riddance.

Seconded, but it’ll probably just pop up under another name somewhere else. This is pretty much guaranteed to send all the armchair counter-jihadists into hyper-paranoid conspiracy theory mode.

12 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 11:29:23am

re: #11 CuriousLurker

“Seconded, but it’ll probably just pop up under another name somewhere else.”

True. Wouldn’t surprise me to see them popping back up over at typepad using the same name and posting the same vile content.

“This is pretty much guaranteed to send all the armchair counter-jihadists into hyper-paranoid conspiracy theory mode.”

So far the Harpy and the Gnome haven’t posted anything about this, yet.

13 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 11:39:20am

re: #10 ProBosniaLiberal

It’s not your fight, so why twist yourself up over it? Look, I feel bad for all the innocent people suffering over there, regardless of their religion, but as a Muslim I also naturally feel a special empathy for the average Palestinian Muslim on the street, especially the women & kids.

There’s not a whole hell of a lot anyone can do from here though. The Israelis & Palestinians have to figure out a way to work things out. Outsiders can try to help, but they can’t do it for them. If they refuse to accept help, or if one or both sides refuses to budge, then everyone continues to suffer indefinitely. Those are the only options, as far as I can tell.

14 celticdragon  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 11:48:58am

re: #4 CuriousLurker

E gad, Fjordman too. O_o

If Fjordman is involved, run the fuck away.

15 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 12:44:21pm

Crap GoV is back up on Blogspot. Guess it was to good to be true.

16 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 12:50:36pm

re: #13 CuriousLurker

I have friends who are Palestinian American. That’s why I get worked up about it.

17 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 2:53:00pm

re: #16 ProBosniaLiberal

I have friends who are Palestinian American. That’s why I get worked up about it.

I get it. I have Palestinian American friends too. How many times has you getting worked up about the situation “back home” helped to improve the lives of your friends’ families who still live over there?

18 Buck  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:20:29pm

Fjordman didn’t write this.

Khaled Abu Toameh wrote this.

He didn’t write it for Fjordman. He didn’t write it under the direction of Fjordman.

Khaled Abu Toameh (Arabic: خالد أبو طعمة‎, born 1963) is an Arab Israeli journalist, lecturer and documentary filmmaker. Abu Toameh is the West Bank and Gaza correspondent for the Jerusalem Post and U.S. News and World Report, and has been the Palestinian affairs producer for NBC News since 1988. His articles have appeared in the Wall Street Journal, World Tribune, Sunday Times, Daily Express and many other newspapers. He was a senior adviser for the Hudson Institute think-tank in New York.
Abu Toameh also wrote for the New York-based think tank Stonegate Institute

—— Wikipedia

All you have is an ad hominem attack and name-calling.

Would anyone like to refute the author’s argument?

19 Buck  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 4:23:07pm

re: #3 Varek Raith

I mean, I know you…dislike Muslims

That is a lie, and a bad one at that.

20 ThomasLite  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:05:45pm

re: #18 Buck

Perhaps, but Toameh does choose to associate himself with those loons at gatestone et al which should be a big, big red flag right there.

21 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:07:31pm

re: #17 CuriousLurker

None. Your right.

re: #19 Buck

Really? Cause I can find no damn evidence of you ever saying anything positive about us. You seem to be the resident Kahanist. I would like to be more brutal than that, but I’m afraid I would get into trouble.

22 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:31:15pm

re: #21 ProBosniaLiberal

None. Your right.

Then maybe you should sit down and try to think of something constructive you can do with all that energy you’re wasting getting angry over far away events you have no control over. Like when your friends get upset, try to talk them down, or even just quietly comfort them. Let them know you’ll be keeping them & their families in your prayers. Donate your time to an organization that promotes peace & bridge building. Stuff like that.

23 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:37:53pm

re: #21 ProBosniaLiberal

And stop wasting your time giving a shit who Buck does or doesn’t like. He is who he is and I’ll give him this much: He’s been 100% consistent over the course of the almost 3 years that I’ve been here at LGF. If you think anything you say is going to alter his opinions or behavior, you’re suffering from delusions.

24 wrenchwench  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:47:26pm

re: #18 Buck

All you have is an ad hominem attack and name-calling.

Would anyone like to refute the author’s argument?

From the stinky linky:

Western journalists, funders and decision-makers who deal with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict need to know that there are many truths being completely ignored or hidden from their eyes and ears.

That’s not much of an argument. Above it is a list of things he puts in the category of ‘truths being completely ignored or hidden from their eyes’. So someone needs to refute his laundry list? I think his associations are bigger news than that. You’re despicable for ignoring that. That’s not an ‘ad hominem’. That’s an opinion, backed up with evidence.

25 freetoken  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:48:05pm

re: #18 Buck

All you have is an ad hominem attack and name-calling.

Would anyone like to refute the author’s argument?

One of the bigger, more important points which you are avoiding is that the so-called “argument” is simply of laundry list about how nasty the the Palestinian Authority is, according to his own selection of items about which he deems worthy to write.

Here’s an example:

- The wife of a senior PLO official recently spent $20,000 for dental treatment in Tel Aviv at a time when there is no shortage of renowned Palestinian dentists in Ramallah, Bethlehem and Nablus.

Wow, we should all be concerned about that, no?

No.

Your attraction to pettiness is pretty revealing, not unlike CAMERA’s, where even the smallest thing becomes paramount. The ideological war of the author is pretty clear.

26 freetoken  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 5:49:29pm

re: #24 wrenchwench

So someone needs to refute his laundry list?

You stole my phrase.

Anyway, yes, Buck somehow thinks a laundry list is an “argument”.

For what?

27 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:15:24pm

re: #18 Buck

Fjordman didn’t write this.

Khaled Abu Toameh wrote this.

He didn’t write it for Fjordman. He didn’t write it under the direction of Fjordman.

—— Wikipedia

All you have is an ad hominem attack and name-calling.

Would anyone like to refute the author’s argument?

If its was published on the Gatestone Institute website, then whoever wrote it was willingly associating with Fjordman. That’s grounds enough for the linkage of the piece to that Fascist gasbag..

28 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:37:58pm

No fascists at LGF. Not now, not ever. Gatestone Institute is promoting European fascists, and if anything pisses me off it’s seeing their articles posted at my website.

From this day forward, if you post one of their articles your account will be history.

I won’t allow LGF to be used to spread this hateful crap.

29 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 7:32:48pm

re: #19 Buck

That is a lie, and a bad one at that.

Then surely you and EI can find authors and groups without major links to euro-fascists, right?
Why is that so hard for you guys to find credible sources?

30 Buck  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:06:23pm

re: #21 ProBosniaLiberal

You seem to be the resident Kahanist.

You don’t even know what that means. It is just a racist insult with zero context.

Are you saying I am a terrorist? A Bomber? What exactly?

A Jew that fights back?

What do you mean?

31 Buck  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:16:30pm

re: #27 Dark_Falcon

If its was published on the Gatestone Institute website, then whoever wrote it was willingly associating with Fjordman.

That is simply not true.

I find nothing where Khaled Abu Toameh endorses Fjordman specifically, or even anything that Fjordman stands for.

Khaled Abu Toameh is an expert on Palestinian affairs. Not a fascists. He is in fact a respected journalist.

Charles once wrote for Reuters, and they have had a lot of bad people write for them. Didn’t mean anything about what Charles believes, or even what Reuters believes.

However, that is fine. I think this guy has a good article. Has something to say. We can learn from him.

Sad to shut off discussion.

I didn’t post it, and I am not defending Fjordman. However this guy (Khaled Abu Toameh) has been there. He knows what is really going on INSIDE Gaza. It would be nice to hear it.

32 Buck  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:18:53pm

re: #29 Varek Raith

Why is that so hard for you guys to find credible sources?

That is the point. Khaled Abu Toameh is a credible source. A respected journalist, with years of experience and background.

33 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:41:08pm

re: #32 Buck

That is the point. Khaled Abu Toameh is a credible source. A respected journalist, with years of experience and background.

Respected journalists don’t write for groups who see Fjordman and Geert Wilders positively.
Neither should you.

34 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:47:59pm

And these constant linking and support of these sites leads me to believe EI and Buck truly don’t like Muslims. They don’t care about the source. They probably agree with most of the crap on that site. They’re just too afraid to admit it.
Benefit of the doubt can only last so long.

35 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:52:13pm

re: #8 Charles Johnson

This was deleted by one of the monitors (as it should have been) but I’m restoring it because when people start losing their LGF accounts because of posting articles from sources that are affiliated with bigots and white nationalists like Geert Wilders and Fjordman, I don’t want there to be any mystery about why it’s happening.

Just curious…does it matter that the last time Fjordman wrote an article [on this particular site] was 2009? Or is everything on this site automatically tainted and thus not worth discussion because up to 2009 he wrote a few articles? I only ask because Khaled Abu Toameh is considered by many pro-Israel folk to be a credible (and very brave) journalist.

36 Varek Raith  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:02:00pm

re: #35 Eclectic Infidel

Just curious…does it matter that the last time Fjordman wrote an article [on this particular site] was 2009? Or is everything on this site automatically tainted and thus not worth discussion because up to 2009 he wrote a few articles? I only ask because Khaled Abu Toameh is considered by many pro-Israel folk to be a credible (and very brave) journalist.

Yes, it does taint it.
Fjordman is a genocide advocating psycho.
He was then too.
No excuse.

37 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:04:37pm

re: #36 Varek Raith

Yes, it does taint it.
Fjordman is a genocide advocating psycho.
He was then too.
No excuse.

Pathetic. Seriously. Very pathetic.

38 bratwurst  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:11:29pm

re: #35 Eclectic Infidel

Just curious…does it matter that the last time Fjordman wrote an article [on this particular site] was 2009?

Go ahead and ignore that he is identified as a 2013 visiting “scholar”:

[Link: www.gatestoneinstitute.org…]

39 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:36:02pm

re: #35 Eclectic Infidel

I lost family in the terror attack that people like him, but especially him in particular inspired.

Get hosed. I’m assuming, from your defense and promotion of that little fucking Quisling that you approve of what happened on Utoya.

40 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:37:35pm

re: #39 ProBosniaLiberal

I lost family in the terror attack that people like him, but especially him in particular inspired.

Get hosed. I’m assuming, from your defense and promotion of that little fucking Quisling that you approve of what happened on Utoya.

You’re referring to Anders Brevik’s terror attacks, correct?

41 ProBosniaLiberal  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:38:11pm

re: #40 Dark_Falcon

Yes. Yes I am.

Eclectic Infidel just found the bright, shiny red button.

42 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:41:10pm

re: #37 Eclectic Infidel

Pathetic. Seriously. Very pathetic.

Sorry but I cannot agree. Willing association with totalitarians is unacceptable. Fascism, Islamism, and Communism are horrific creeds that have no place on a blog that is pro-freedom. EI, Fjordman is not your friend and if the Islamist threat were to recede the Gatestone Institute would likely turn on the Jews with a vengeance.

43 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:48:11pm

re: #37 Eclectic Infidel

Pathetic. Seriously. Very pathetic.

No, you know what’s pathetic? Your cowardice in slinking over to your blog to talk shit behind our backs, followed by your denial and eventual refusal to apologize when you were called out.

You know what else is pathetic? A grown man who’s told in no uncertain terms how the owner of this blog feels about the links he’s using, who then turns around and keeps pushing back. Which part of…

No fascists at LGF. Not now, not ever. Gatestone Institute is promoting European fascists, and if anything pisses me off it’s seeing their articles posted at my website.

…did you NOT understand?

This crap would be funny if it didn’t involve haters who are trying to do real harm to people. But, hey, anything is okay up to and including people who associate with creeps like Fjordman & Wilders as long as they’re pro-Israel. It boggles the mind.

44 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:51:11pm

re: #35 Eclectic Infidel

This is the last warning I’m going to give you. It’s not open to debate.

45 Gus  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:17:13pm

re: #37 Eclectic Infidel

Pathetic. Seriously. Very pathetic.

That’s not pathetic Eclectic Infidel, it’s the truth. Come on dude, you should know better. Admit that Gatestone is fucking up here. Having Fjordman on board is like having David Duke on board from the opposite side.

46 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:30:02pm

Note to Stalker ‘Briareus’: Charles has not banned Eclectic Infidel. EI has been warned not to link to a hate site again, but her account remains unblocked. Shows how much you guys know.

47 bratwurst  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:37:22pm

re: #46 Dark_Falcon

Note to Stalker ‘Briareus’: Charles has not banned Eclectic Infidel. EI has been warned not to link to a hate site again, but her account remains unblocked. Shows how much you guys know.

Well guess what? EI returned the favor by linking to the stalkers on his blog…you know the blog where he “forgot” that he had posted a list of people here who he considers “Traitors to Free Speech”?

[Link: absurdcabal.blogspot.com…]

I am at a loss for words to describe his behavior, so I will go ahead and let him describe himself:

re: #37 Eclectic Infidel

Pathetic. Seriously. Very pathetic.

48 Gus  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:42:57pm

Maybe not use this source anymore Eclectic Infidel?

49 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:45:44pm

re: #47 bratwurst

Meltdown complete.

50 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:47:19pm

OK, that clarifies things very well. Obviously I was wasting my time with warnings.

51 RadicalModerate  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:02:03am

re: #28 Charles Johnson

No fascists at LGF. Not now, not ever. Gatestone Institute is promoting European fascists, and if anything pisses me off it’s seeing their articles posted at my website.

From this day forward, if you post one of their articles your account will be history.

I won’t allow LGF to be used to spread this hateful crap.

I’m assuming that this applies to using groups like Gatestone as a source, and not articles/posts designed to point out their bigotry? I want to be able to report on them in the same fashion as we do with other “fringe” groups, using cached links whenever possible (because I don’t want to give these disgusting freaks any more traffic than they deserve), but don’t want to step on any toes here if possible.

52 Jimmah  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 9:45:06am

Good bleedin riddance. Play him off, keyboard cat

Youtube Video
53 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 10:18:43am

re: #51 RadicalModerate

Yes, of course - articles that criticize these groups are not a problem.

54 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 11:53:03am

And no - this isn’t just about Fjordman. Gatestone Institute is one of the prime movers behind the far right anti-Muslim movement. Some background information: Meet the Sugar Mama of Anti-Muslim Hate.

55 bratwurst  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 12:10:05pm

Also, let’s not let the (deserved) disgust for Fjordman take away from Gatestone’s love for the despicable Geert Wilders.

Hey, it seems like I have seen another website that admires this hate monger as well…oh yeah, it’s National Review Online. Could the author of that love letter to Wilders really be the same Mark Steyn who is also Rush Limbaugh’s number one defender?

56 Aligarr  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 12:10:23pm

The “inconvenient truth ” is the same for the P.A. as it is for Hamas . Both want Israel destroyed , both want Jews removed from the land , both react violently to any criticism within their own ranks , and both have covenants calling for the destruction of Israel . Morsi’s recent words are echoed by both . These truths are simply inconvenient because I guess both sides are not smart enough to figure out that whatever is said in public and done in public , does not escape notice and eventual exposure . I think that illusion is fortified and encouraged by the reporting of several western news sources ,which more and more are being outted and coaxed into even handed reporting . And THAT’s inconvenient for the Palestinians .

57 antpogo  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 2:30:45pm

In the latest post by the Aigle bot, the CAMERA article links straight to (and quotes) a Gatestone article.

58 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 2:36:38pm

re: #57 antpogo

Welcome, hatchling.

59 antpogo  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 2:50:30pm

Thank you!

Been reading the site for ages, but this is the thing that finally made me register, oddly enough. I only clicked on the link in the latest Aigle post because I have a deep interest in what’s going on in Egypt (one side of my family have been living there as long as my side of the family has been in America).

It was just so bizarrely coincidental, that this thread came up about Gatestone at the same time I clicked on my very first Aigle link that also had a link to Gatestone that I just felt the need to comment on it.

60 CuriousLurker  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 4:02:44pm

re: #57 antpogo

In the latest post by the Aigle bot, the CAMERA article links straight to (and quotes) a Gatestone article.

Heh, six degrees of separation and all that. Once you start becoming familiar with the connections, you’ll find you start bumping into them every time you turn around. Oh, and welcome, hatchling. ;)

Unofficial LGF hatchling song:

Youtube Video
61 Aligarr  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 4:58:57am

You can fault the messengers associations -no argument there , but this particular message in question is absolutely TRUE .

62 Buck  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 1:36:28pm

re: #54 Charles Johnson

And no - this isn’t just about Fjordman. Gatestone Institute is one of the prime movers behind the far right anti-Muslim movement. Some background information: Meet the Sugar Mama of Anti-Muslim Hate.

Your background information comes from the truther antisemitic site alternet.

That link had a lot that offended me, and would have offended anyone who is pro Israel.

Basically it is becoming clear that being pro Israel is offending people. It is as if being pro israel is being anti muslim (it isn’t). It certainly isn’t being a Kahanist.

63 Varek Raith  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 2:32:53pm

Derp, wrong thread.

64 Varek Raith  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 2:34:42pm

re: #61 Aligarr

You can fault the messengers associations -no argument there , but this particular message in question is absolutely TRUE .

So why can’t you guys point to a better source?
Why do you always inevitably pick far right, anti-Muslim sources?
Try harder.

65 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 2:41:39pm

re: #62 Buck

“Truther antisemitic site alternet”? LOL.

You were offended. That wounds me deeply. Any comment on the actual facts in the piece? The connections to Geert Wilders and Robert Spencer and Frank Gaffney and Brigitte Gabriel, etc. etc. etc.? Or did you even read that far before your offense grew too great?

Face it - as I said, Gatestone Institute is one of the prime movers behind the anti-Muslim bigot brigade in the US, and your attempts to defend them are ludicrous.

66 Obdicut  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 2:57:26pm

re: #62 Buck

Ah yes, Alternet, the Truther site with stories like:


Enough of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories, Already

Before the 9/11 Conspiracies, There Was the Oklahoma Bombing

Much of the faulty logic and circumstantial evidence that justifies the 9/11 conspiracies are repeats of the theories that abounded in Timothy McVeigh’s Oklahoma City bombing.

The Idiocy Behind the ‘9/11 Truth’ Movement

Why the “9/11 Truth” movement makes the Left Behind series read like Shakespeare.

I can easily find a bunch of anti-truther articles on Alternet. With difficulty, I can find some that brush near 9/11 trutherism.

Can you back up your case that alternet is a Truther site, in the light of these anti-Truther articles?

Or are you just obfuscating, as you do every damn day of your life?

67 EPR-radar  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 2:57:53pm

re: #64 Varek Raith

So why can’t you guys point to a better source?
Why do you always inevitably pick far right, anti-Muslim sources?
Try harder.

Any rational person who does some research will find ample grounds to severely criticize Palestinian leadership, the propagandization of the Palestinian and Arab populations etc.

Thus the laundry list of damning facts is inherently uninteresting, providing it is properly vetted for factual accuracy and basic relevance. The posters of this material apparently also realize this (otherwise, they could do the research themselves, post the results, and there would be little/no controversy).

The whole point of this exercise appears to be a reverse ad-hominem. Find some material provided by a questionable source that happens to be true (or close enough to true). Post it, and when the SHTF, claim that the quoted material “is true” as if that is a complete defense. In some cases, the questionable source is praised as having the courage to tell truths nobody wants to hear. The underlying point is to normalize the questionable source and the associated political positions (usually extremist).

I’ll be the first to admit I’m pretty clueless on I/P, but I’ve seen this line of attack before from “race realists” and “immigration realists” in the US, and it stinks just as much for I/P as it does for domestic issues.

68 Jimmah  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 3:36:28pm

re: #66 Obdicut

Can you back up your case that alternet is a Truther site, in the light of these anti-Truther articles?

Last time he made this claim, IIRC, he cited their inclusion of an an article by Robert Fisk, which was then shown not to be’ a truther article in any sense whatsoever.

He’s just flailing around now, repeating slurs he knows won’t hold up.

69 TedStriker  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 3:38:03pm

re: #61 Aligarr

You can fault the messengers associations -no argument there , but this particular message in question is absolutely TRUE .

Sure we can…especially when those associations are as odious as Gatestone’s.

70 EPR-radar  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 3:52:13pm

re: #69 TedStriker

Sure we can…especially when those associations are as odious as Gatestone’s.

It’s like pointing to an example where justice was served in a Soviet court case.

So what.

71 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 4:29:06pm

re: #61 Aligarr

You can fault the messengers associations -no argument there , but this particular message in question is absolutely TRUE .

An article written by a totalitarian is tainted, even if the contents of that particular article are true. This is because the article’s author is an enemy of freedom and is will to use not only force but outright murder to force others to live as he wishes them to. Such a person’s words are filth, because they are spoken in the service of a vile cause.

72 CuriousLurker  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:05:42pm

re: #67 EPR-radar

Any rational person who does some research will find ample grounds to severely criticize Palestinian leadership, the propagandization of the Palestinian and Arab populations etc.

QFT

The whole point of this exercise appears to be a reverse ad-hominem. Find some material provided by a questionable source that happens to be true (or close enough to true). Post it, and when the SHTF, claim that the quoted material “is true” as if that is a complete defense. In some cases, the questionable source is praised as having the courage to tell truths nobody wants to hear. The underlying point is to normalize the questionable source and the associated political positions (usually extremist).

I’ll be the first to admit I’m pretty clueless on I/P, but I’ve seen this line of attack before from “race realists” and “immigration realists” in the US, and it stinks just as much for I/P as it does for domestic issues.

THIS. You nailed it.

73 Buck  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:39:32pm

re: #66 Obdicut

With difficulty, I can find some that brush near 9/11 trutherism.

It really is that simple. You can’t say that a site put out both sides of the the 9/11 trutherism but isn’t publishing the truther side.

This isn’t about being fair to the truther side of the discussion.

Alternet makes a purpose decision to, as you put it, “brush near 9/11 trutherism”.

This is where you get to say, “well I don’t judge that as truther”.

Well the Robert Fisk article was truther.


Sander Hicks, one of the prominent voices within the movement and author of The Big Wedding: 9/11, The Whistle-Blowers, and the Cover-Up wrote a few articles like this:

[Link: www.alternet.org…]

If you want to say that only brushes near trutherism, or that the people at Alternet didn’t associate with the author (Actually Joshua Holland is a close friend of Sander Hicks), well then obviously I can’t make you see it my way.

74 Buck  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:43:43pm

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

Khaled Abu Toameh is not “a totalitarian”. Nor is he “an enemy of freedom and is will to use not only force but outright murder to force others to live as he wishes them to.”

Khaled Abu Toameh (Arabic: خالد أبو طعمة‎, born 1963) is an Arab Israeli journalist, lecturer and documentary filmmaker. Abu Toameh is the West Bank and Gaza correspondent for the Jerusalem Post and U.S. News and World Report, and has been the Palestinian affairs producer for NBC News since 1988. His articles have appeared in the Wall Street Journal, World Tribune, Sunday Times, Daily Express and many other newspapers.

75 Buck  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:45:36pm

re: #72 CuriousLurker

Again, Khaled Abu Toameh is not a questionable source, or an extremist.

76 Buck  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:48:12pm

re: #65 Charles Johnson

Gatestone Institute is one of the prime movers behind the anti-Muslim bigot brigade in the US, and your attempts to defend them are ludicrous.

Except that I am not defending Gatestone, I am defending Khaled Abu Toameh.

In the same way that you would not defend Alternet.

77 Jimmah  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:08:52pm

re: #73 Buck

February 1, 2007 |

Editor’s note: The role of the alternative press is to offer perspectives that the commercial media won’t touch. Having run a number of articles critical of the “9/11 Truth Movement” by Matt Taibbi, Joshua Holland, Matthew Rothschild and others, we asked Sander Hicks, a prominent voice within the movement, to share his perspective. For more of Sanders’ views, see his book ” The Big Wedding: 9/11, The Whistle-Blowers, and the Cover-Up.”

Not by any stretch does this amount to an endorsement of truther views. As the editor clearly states, this summation of the truther position by Hicks is given for perspective, a reference point for the many truther-refuting articles that they have published.

As for the Robert Fisk article, the suggestion that it was a ‘truther’ article is idiotic. He actually lampooned the truther movement in it. This was explained to you already.

78 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:12:36pm

re: #76 Buck

In the same way that you would not defend Alternet.

Alternet is not a Truther site, Buck. If that means I’m “defending” them, then yes, I’m damned well defending them against this stupid accusation. The editor in chief published an article making it very clear that 9/11 conspiracies were not welcome at the site, and I respect that move. It’s a mark of intellectual integrity to me.

That’s the same reason I refuse to allow anti-Muslim propaganda at LGF, Buck. The people who spread hatred based on religion, race, or ethnicity, are simply NOT WELCOME at my website. I fought hard to clear my name of these hateful bastards, and they keep trying to make a comeback, but I will not ever back down on this.

79 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:21:00pm

P.S. And Khaled Abu Toameh should be ashamed of himself for associating with this group of hate mongers.

80 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:22:30pm

But they pay well. It’s wingnut welfare, the anti-Muslim division.

81 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:25:05pm

re: #80 Charles Johnson

But I hear they pay well.

30 pieces of silver per article, or so I’m told.

82 CuriousLurker  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:27:09pm

re: #65 Charles Johnson

“Truther antisemitic site alternet”? LOL.

You were offended. That wounds me deeply. Any comment on the actual facts in the piece? The connections to Geert Wilders and Robert Spencer and Frank Gaffney and Brigitte Gabriel, etc. etc. etc.? Or did you even read that far before your offense grew too great?

Face it - as I said, Gatestone Institute is one of the prime movers behind the anti-Muslim bigot brigade in the US, and your attempts to defend them are ludicrous.

Quoted for effing truth. I spent last night and part of today re-familiarizing myself with Wilders’ speech at Geller’s 2010 anti-mosque protest in NYC. Geller introduced him by embracing him and gushing, “This man is my hero.”

His speech was sickening. The people who are “outraged!” at the push-back against anyone who would associate with him should Google it—you can find videos of it on YouTube and transcripts on right-wing sites. Once you’ve watched it in full, try searching for videos of the other people mentioned in the article Charles referenced.

Does anyone need more examples? Because I have plenty more if you want to wade around in the hateful filth that wraps itself in “patriotism” and masquerades as being on the side of justice, freedom and human rights. *spit*

I’m so sick of this bullshit. If it were aimed at Jews or Israel, the people here who are “pro-Israel” would never in a million years tolerate as acceptable the same kind of anti-Muslim hate speech these scumbag bigots put out, so if you’re gonna expect others to do it, then take your pseudo-outrage and STUFF IT, m’kay?

83 Jimmah  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:33:57pm

re: #79 Charles Johnson

P.S. And Khaled Abu Toameh should be ashamed of himself for associating with this group of hate mongers.

But he has also written for a bunch of Murdoch papers, and the Daily Express! This is supposed to exhonerate him of the charge of being a willing tool for Islamophobes…?

Btw the Daily Express recent claim to fame was falsely claiming on their front page that a bunch of muslim street cleaners were arrested for plotting to blow up the Pope. Quality.

84 ThomasLite  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:44:11pm

re: #74 Buck

…But really, have you looked up his history on gatestone?
[Link: webcache.googleusercontent.com…]
Dude has, at a glance, written over a hundred articles for them over the course of over four years. Now a few things I’ll readily admit: (1)the few links in that list I clicked did not appear to be the usual hateful crap I’d expect from gatestone; (2)some of the articles I skimmed appeared familiar, and I’m sure I didn’t read them there (NOT some place I want to go, normally…) so they might well be things he just sold to multiple outlets (and I understand, though not necessarily agree, that if you’re putting articles out for sale on a reasonably open market there’s folks you’ll sell to who you wouldn’t take a specific assignment from) and (3)I can understand having to make a living; journalists often aren’t exactly top earners - then again the job should carry some extra responsibility.

What remains however, despite these potentially mitigating factors, is that while he might not be a hater himself, he does choose to consistently, frequently and over a substantial period of time, associate himself with some really, really nasty folk.

Can you not see how that is objectionable to many of us?

Let’s go for a hypothetical analogy here. How’d you feel if some otherwise reasonable left-wing author (I shall leave it up to you to determine what constitutes that as I feel it’s not an easy definition to make in your mind, but please construe such a hypothetical person in the most charitable manner possible) were to suddenly start writing for a fringe news/opinion magazine which endorses, say (and yes, I’m looking for something to rile you up good here - it’s the whole point :) ), the 9/11 attacks as just desserts for US meddling in the ME.
Hateful, vile and indefensible, as I’m sure we will all agree. Just the same as the Islamophobic rhetoric so often spouted by Gatestone - as we’ll all agree.
Would you still take that journalist seriously? Now imagine he’s continued to associate with them for years on end - would there be any doubt left in your mind? Please Buck, don’t be a disingenuous tool here…

And really, I’m willing to view Toameh’s choices in this matter in the most charitable way imaginable - assuming he either doesn’t like Gatestone at all but really, really needs the cash to keep his kids from starving or genuinely does not have the judgement to know to stay away from them.
But hey, that either makes him desperate enough to write whatever they want from him (and with Gatestone - YIKES, stay the hell clear!) or severely lacking in his judgement - which would make him a perfectly useless journalist.

What am I missing here? either I assume malice on his part or don’t in which case he’s still to be avoided like the plague…

85 Shvaughn  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 7:13:20pm

re: #84 ThomasLite

What am I missing here?

But Robert Fisk!!!1!

86 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 7:23:18pm

re: #85 Shvaughn

But Robert Fisk!!!1!

That can be dealt with simply by invoking the O’Reilly Rule:

You cannot justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior.

87 Buck  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 8:45:17pm

re: #84 ThomasLite

Let us change that hypothetical analogy, just slightly:

A website that constantly calls Jews living in parts of Israel “illegal”.
A website that constantly refers to Israel as apartheid.
A website that uses the common anti semitic dog whistle that the Jewish Lobby controls congress….

Hateful, vile and indefensible, as I’m sure we will all agree.

No wait, we don’t agree on that do we?

Oh well.

88 Buck  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 8:49:55pm

re: #84 ThomasLite

assuming he either doesn’t like Gatestone at all but really, really needs the cash to keep his kids from starving or genuinely does not have the judgement to know to stay away from them.

Or he doesn’t have to agree with everything the editors, or other writers have written in order to get his own views published.

He doesn’t have to agree with them on everything, and they don’t have to agree with him on everything.

That would probably be the most charitable way imaginable, and the simplest explanation.

Again, his writing, experience and background should cover this.

89 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 9:50:12pm

re: #87 Buck

Let us change that hypothetical analogy, just slightly:

Let’s not. I would like to see you respond to it the way it was written. Your changes are not parallels.

90 palomino  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 9:51:44pm

re: #62 Buck

Your background information comes from the truther antisemitic site alternet.

That link had a lot that offended me, and would have offended anyone who is pro Israel.

Basically it is becoming clear that being pro Israel is offending people. It is as if being pro israel is being anti muslim (it isn’t). It certainly isn’t being a Kahanist.

You just don’t get it, Buck. People here aren’t anti-Israel; they’re anti-Buck. Because you’re a dick, and an intellectually dishonest one at that.

91 122 Year Old Obama  Sun, Jan 20, 2013 12:53:01am

re: #90 palomino

You just don’t get it, Buck. People here aren’t anti-Israel; they’re anti-Buck. Because you’re a dick, and an intellectually dishonest one at that.

I wouldn’t say anti-Buck so much as it is anti-dishonesty.

92 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 20, 2013 1:53:33am

re: #73 Buck

It really is that simple. You can’t say that a site put out both sides of the the 9/11 trutherism but isn’t publishing the truther side.

They intentionally solicited one article to defend the conspiracy theorists, it’s true. If you read it, it is not of the ‘truther’ variety of fake missiles, Jews leaving the world trade center, etc.; it is the conspiracy that on some level and in some way the terrorists had help or were given cover for whatever reason from sources inside the US government.

I do not think this is true, but the article stops a long way from anything resembling crazy trutherism.

Meanwhile, they publish a lot— and they’re cited in that piece you cited— of anti-truther articles.

So on what grounds do you call a place that publishes a very large amount of anti-truther stuff, and then one mildly truther-ish piece, a truther site?

93 Shvaughn  Sun, Jan 20, 2013 1:58:49am

re: #92 Obdicut

So on what grounds do you call a place that publishes a very large amount of anti-truther stuff, and then one mildly truther-ish piece, a truther site?

Because Fisk!!1!

//

94 RadicalModerate  Sun, Jan 20, 2013 2:36:36am

re: #79 Charles Johnson

P.S. And Khaled Abu Toameh should be ashamed of himself for associating with this group of hate mongers.

Kind of makes you think that Toameh might be sympathetic to their viewpoint, doesn’t it? I don’t know about the rest of you, but if I were a writer/journalist, and my copyrighted articles were regularly featured by an organization whose leanings cross well over the line of religious and racist bigotry, I’d be doing everything in my power have them cease said actions immediately or face legal consequences.

95 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 20, 2013 9:23:18am

re: #87 Buck

Let us change that hypothetical analogy, just slightly:

A website that constantly calls Jews living in parts of Israel “illegal”.
A website that constantly refers to Israel as apartheid.
A website that uses the common anti semitic dog whistle that the Jewish Lobby controls congress….

Hateful, vile and indefensible, as I’m sure we will all agree.

No wait, we don’t agree on that do we?

Oh well.

Once again, Buck:

You cannot justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior.

96 ThomasLite  Sun, Jan 20, 2013 9:58:00am

re: #87 Buck

Let us change that hypothetical analogy, just slightly:

A website that constantly calls Jews living in parts of Israel “illegal”.
A website that constantly refers to Israel as apartheid.
A website that uses the common anti semitic dog whistle that the Jewish Lobby controls congress….

Hateful, vile and indefensible, as I’m sure we will all agree.

No wait, we don’t agree on that do we?

Oh well.

Ooh, that’s a first! I’m insufficiently pro-Israel now? Well, that’s gotta be a first for me. Swing and miss, Buck.
Oh and you know what? let’s agree on that, too. Now point me towards such a site being used as a source here - I don’t see it.
You do see a difference between a site providing a forum for discussion between several viewpoints which might not necessarily be it’s own (almost like the comments here, for example) and an ‘institute’ consistently pushing one and the same vile agenda, right?

re: #88 Buck

Or he doesn’t have to agree with everything the editors, or other writers have written in order to get his own views published.

He doesn’t have to agree with them on everything, and they don’t have to agree with him on everything.

That would probably be the most charitable way imaginable, and the simplest explanation.

Again, his writing, experience and background should cover this.

Ah. Let’s go with your little scaretale again - assume that violently antisemitic website has some mainstream cred (somehow) yet still keeps consistently pushing said agenda.
Now let’s assume, say oh I don’t know, Rachel Maddow for example, were to write a (much more reasonable) column on that site. Or some news article - doesn’t really matter. Just one. One freaking article, one time - as opposed to >100 over the course of four years. What would your response be? “Oh well, let’s trust her whole record and not make a fuss of this”? I rather doubt it.
(For the record: I’d probably be in on the very first anti-maddow crusade I could find were that to happen and really, I don’t like her to begin with - just so you don’t find some irrelevant tangent to go off on again…)

97 Buck  Sun, Jan 20, 2013 3:09:39pm

re: #92 Obdicut

So on what grounds do you call a place that publishes a very large amount of anti-truther stuff, and then one mildly truther-ish piece, a truther site?

You, once again miss the whole point.

Labeling everyone who writes for a site with the broad brush of a few is exactly the opposite of what I am doing.

98 Buck  Sun, Jan 20, 2013 3:13:22pm

re: #89 wrenchwench

Let’s not. I would like to see you respond to it the way it was written. Your changes are not parallels.

Maybe not to you, but actually, to me they are.

I find those to be much more despicable, and yet they are the regular staple at Kos, and Huff Post. Even at Media Matters. Certainly at Alternet.

Are any of those sites comparable to Gatestone?

99 Buck  Sun, Jan 20, 2013 3:18:10pm

re: #96 ThomasLite

Now point me towards such a site being used as a source here - I don’t see it.

KOS, Huff Post, Media matters, And Alternet.

100 ThomasLite  Sun, Jan 20, 2013 3:22:35pm

re: #99 Buck

KOS, Huff Post, Media matters, And Alternet.

The difference between a site with a coordinated editorial opinion, continuously and consistently advancing a certain viewpoint (try actually reading for a change - I mentioned that test several times and it should have been perfectly obvious that it applied to this question to anyone with grade school reading/comprehension skills) and one which aggregates different viewpoints and promotes internal discussion, or just provides a forum anyone can publish on, or does both, is completely lost on you, it seems.

Either that, or you’re just a disingenuous assclown. FU Buck, I’m done with your crap.

101 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 20, 2013 6:30:55pm

re: #98 Buck

GAZE

102 CuriousLurker  Mon, Jan 21, 2013 4:18:29pm

re: #100 ThomasLite

Buck doesn’t do nuance, TL. Everything is black & white, and the only difference that matters is whether or not he can successfully use something as a cudgel to distract his opponents and throw them off balance long enough to move the goalposts again and further confuse the issue.

Charges of anti-Semitism are his preferred cudgel because they can be used quite effectively to put someone on the defensive, even fellow Jews. Charges of hypocrisy are his second favorite. Like any good wingnut, whenever his own bigotry or hypocrisy is pointed out, he immediately turns it around and uses it as evidence of his opponent’s own (supposed) bigotry/hypocrisy. The ensuing anger and/or confusion and/or self-defense that usually follows makes the exercise an excellent obfuscatory tactic.

Here’s a perfect example: Remember his #87, above, where with no small amount of righteous indignation he wielded the anti-Semitic cudgel to distract from his own dismissal of the anti-Muslim hatred so obvious at Gatestone?

Let us change that hypothetical analogy, just slightly:

A website that constantly calls Jews living in parts of Israel “illegal”.
A website that constantly refers to Israel as apartheid.
A website that uses the common anti semitic dog whistle that the Jewish Lobby controls congress….

Hateful, vile and indefensible, as I’m sure we will all agree.

No wait, we don’t agree on that do we?

Oh well.

Only 3 days prior to that, in a effort to discredit Jeffrey Goldberg because I’d said I’d take his word on something, Buck referenced at least one source that that does the very things he claims he finds “hateful, vile and indefensible”. I laid it all out in this comment (read the whole thread if you want to get the gist of the “discussion”, if it can be called that).

If his efforts weren’t so transparent, desperately grasping, and pathetically disingenuous, Buck’s recurrent assclownery would be greatly amusing.

103 ThomasLite  Mon, Jan 21, 2013 4:38:39pm

Yeah, I figured as much by now. Thanks for the links - it confirms it all quite nicely.


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