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1 Destro  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 6:25:48am

Many right wingers and Euro-haters in America would cite this as a reason Europe is less free than America. I support punishment for spreading falsehoods - even false opinions - if said opinions are dangerous and can lead to worse things.

Scientology is also banned in Germany based on the same rationale.

2 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 8:45:15am

It’s their country and their laws but frankly as much as Holocaust denying bothers me, I feel uncomfortable with such laws on a civil libertarian level but also because I think giving people the right to show how ignorant they are exposes ignorance for what it is. I mean maybe the latter is a little pie in the sky I admit.

3 Destro  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 9:20:17am

re: #2 HappyWarrior

It’s their country and their laws but frankly as much as Holocaust denying bothers me, I feel uncomfortable with such laws on a civil libertarian level but also because I think giving people the right to show how ignorant they are exposes ignorance for what it is. I mean maybe the latter is a little pie in the sky I admit.

In the USA it is not an issue. In Europe such laws exist because many countries in Europe (leaving out the German example) have ethnic minorities in them that are hostile to each other (like the former Yugoslavia).

Also, the USA does have some laws like this, for example in many states it is illegal to cover your face while making a political speech or during an assembly, dating back to when the KKK was a potent threat.

4 Skip Intro  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 11:23:12am

Germany has had the unfortunate experience of finding out exactly what happens when you allow this shit to be passed on as fact. Sadly, I fear, soon the US is going to have a similar experience because of all the conspiracy loons being given free reign in the US media.

5 EPR-radar  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 11:27:56am

re: #2 HappyWarrior

It’s their country and their laws but frankly as much as Holocaust denying bothers me, I feel uncomfortable with such laws on a civil libertarian level but also because I think giving people the right to show how ignorant they are exposes ignorance for what it is. I mean maybe the latter is a little pie in the sky I admit.

We are presently running the experiment in the US to see if lies can trump reality in a democracy. The party of lies is doing much better than I’d like.

6 subterraneanhomesickalien  Thu, Jan 17, 2013 10:43:00pm

If there is a hell, than this cocksucker will surely burn nose deep in it, but I just don’t feel comfortable with the coercive power of the state(real coercive power by the way, not the kind that can give you healthcare payed through tax receipts) being displayed by the German government here deciding whats acceptable speech and what’s not.

Liberal Democracy is meant to be exactly that. Your right to be offensive is just as valid as the targets right to be offended.

Its extremely understandable in light of Germany’s terrifyingly recent history of violence and exterminationism against the group being offended, but we have to stand up for the rights of even the most obnoxiously offensive among us don’t we?

And by the way, fuck the holy see for lifting the excommunication on these fascist assholes in the first place. I wish the Gellars and the Spencers would just glimpse at the history lesson these dicks can give you on how Fascism became such a popular model for post WW1 Europe, and the Vaticans complicity in its rise to prominence in Italy, Spain, and Germany.

7 jogiff  Fri, Jan 18, 2013 1:14:21am

re: #1 Destro

Lumping all people who feel that free speech should not be censored as “right wingers and Euro-haters” is not conducive to productive discussion.

Some people do hold opinions that seem stupid or even hateful, but to cast a blanket condemnation of certain views is not just counterproductive (forbidding certain beliefs only makes them more appealing to significant parts of our society), but also poses a threat to progress in other fields.

I think that we all agree that the Holocaust happened and that millions of men, women, and children were murdered in industrialized slave camps for no offense other than their ancestry or sexual heritage. And I think that most of us agree that Holocaust denial is largely borne of hatred for the groups who were targeted.

However, some people are simply ignorant and forbidding people from holding certain views simply because shitty people also hold them is a policy that I feel is a genuinely slippery slope that could eventually be used to stifle progress.

(I’m sorry if I wrote this response like a pompous asshole. I just use unwieldy and unnatural language when I’m tired)

8 Destro  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 12:44:10pm

re: #7 jogiff

I understand your view as an American but America’s example is not available to be followed overseas nor is it in some cases a universal example to be emulated - especially in countries where racial/religious animosities are still real dangers.

9 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Jan 21, 2013 11:30:03am

re: #6 subterraneanhomesickalien

If there is a hell, than this cocksucker will surely burn nose deep in it, but I just don’t feel comfortable with the coercive power of the state(real coercive power by the way, not the kind that can give you healthcare payed through tax receipts) being displayed by the German government here deciding whats acceptable speech and what’s not.

Liberal Democracy is meant to be exactly that. Your right to be offensive is just as valid as the targets right to be offended.

Its extremely understandable in light of Germany’s terrifyingly recent history of violence and exterminationism against the group being offended, but we have to stand up for the rights of even the most obnoxiously offensive among us don’t we?

And by the way, fuck the holy see for lifting the excommunication on these fascist assholes in the first place. I wish the Gellars and the Spencers would just glimpse at the history lesson these dicks can give you on how Fascism became such a popular model for post WW1 Europe, and the Vaticans complicity in its rise to prominence in Italy, Spain, and Germany.

To be fair (which the Society of St. Pious X doesn’t really deserve), the SSPX booted Williamson over these comments. So his words ultimately proved too extreme even for them. Fuck him.


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 Frank says:

Who are the brain police?