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1 EPR-radar  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 2:16:39pm

Has anyone encountered a pro-gun talking point that is stupider that this one?

It would be a real challenge to exceed this level of stupidity, but there are an awful lot of energetic morons out there, so who knows?

2 Destro  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 2:29:07pm

re: #1 EPR-radar

Has anyone encountered a pro-gun talking point that is stupider that this one?

It would be a real challenge to exceed this level of stupidity, but there are an awful lot of energetic morons out there, so who knows?

The one where Jews would have prevented the holocaust if they were armed comes to mind as stupid. The USSR lost 20 million (maybe more) people fighting against the Nazis and they were armed to the teeth. I don’t see how the small Jewish community of Bourgeoisie shop owners would have defeated the Nazis in street battles when the armed Communist Germans lost to them in street fights (and the German Communists did not mind getting into fights in the first place). On and on.

3 Shiplord Kirel  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 2:52:25pm

I addressed this very claim a while back, citing an excellent wikipedia article.
The gun trade was one of the pillars of the slave trade. Some of the numbers are staggering. In the early 1700s, the Netherlands alone exported 20,000 tons of gunpowder to sub-Saharan Africa every year. An average of 400,000 guns were exported to the same area every year by the middle of the century. Among other things, this is more than the combined strength of all the European armies at the time and far more guns than were produced for any European or American domestic market, military orders included.

4 EPR-radar  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:38:12pm

re: #2 Destro

GUNZ would have stopped the Holocaust is indeed stupider. It is also more offensive, so some NRA apparatchik doubtless got his horns, tail and cloven hooves for this particlular bit of slime.

5 Skip Intro  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 5:56:18pm

re: #2 Destro

The one where Jews would have prevented the holocaust if they were armed comes to mind as stupid.

There are plenty of examples of how the Nazis responded to partisan attacks. A typical ratio was 10 to 100 dead for every Nazi shot or killed. Important Nazi deaths would require the massacre of an entire village or town, with everyone in it being killed, and the total destruction of the town.

Bands of armed Jews would have been faced with the burning of entire ghettos with everyone in them had they tried armed resistance. Is it really necessary to remind people that it took the combined military forces of the industrialized world five years to overcome the Germans?

6 The Force Ghost of a Flea  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:06:23pm

re: #5 Skip Intro

There are plenty of examples of how the Nazis responded to partisan attacks. A typical ratio was 10 to 100 dead for every Nazi shot or killed. Important Nazi deaths would require the massacre of an entire village or town, with everyone in it being killed, and the total destruction of the town.

Bands of armed Jews would have been faced with the burning of entire ghettos with everyone in them had they tried armed resistance. Is it really necessary to remind people that it took the combined military forces of the industrialized world five years to overcome the Germans?

Very much the same kind of retaliatory violence was used in the US South whenever there was a violent incident involving an escaping slave. Each slave rebellion results in an orgy of arbitrary violence against both free and enslaved blacks. And not just shootings and lynchings: rape and elaborate public torture were commonplace.

To look at the history of slavery and say “if they just had guns” is insanely insulting to the people that survived in those conditions. It’s a shallow fantasy of violence as panacea, with no reflection on the deeper context…which is unfortunately a consistent theme of many of these loud “we need guns for freedom” people.

7 EPR-radar  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:10:19pm

re: #6 The Ghost of a Flea

Very much the same kind of retaliatory violence was used in the US South whenever there was a violent incident involving an escaping slave. Each slave rebellion results in an orgy of arbitrary violence against both free and enslaved blacks. And not just shootings and lynchings: rape and elaborate public torture were commonplace.

To look at the history of slavery and say “if they just had guns” is insanely insulting to the people that survived in those conditions. It’s a shallow fantasy of violence as panacea, with no reflection on the deeper context…which is unfortunately a consistent theme of many of these loud “we need guns for freedom” people.

These points were also valid in the Jim Crow era —- I’m sure blacks who owned guns had as much to fear from the KKK and other white mob violence as blacks who were unarmed.

In fact, by the time one is seriously considering a heavily armed citizen vs. a mob, civilization is a distant memory. The fact that this fantasy is front and center for wingnuts is a giant tell on their views of modern US society.

8 Destro  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:51:46pm

re: #4 EPR-radar

GUNZ would have stopped the Holocaust is indeed stupider. It is also more offensive, so some NRA apparatchik doubtless got his horns, tail and cloven hooves for this particlular bit of slime.

The Jewish uprising against Rome comes to mind. If only the Jews were armed with swords - oh wait they were? How that turn out for them? Oh that bad, huh?

What is most insulting about this “armed Jews could defeat Nazis” claim is that there were armed Jews and they lost and it did not faze the Nazis in the least. Also, Jesus warned what would happen to weak communities if the rise up in arms against Rome. How can right wing Christians forget that example?

9 EPR-radar  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:53:36pm

re: #8 Destro

The Jewish uprising against Rome comes to mind. If only the Jews were armed with swords - oh wait they were? How that turn out for them? Oh that bad, huh?

What is most insulting about this “armed Jews could defeat Nazis” claim is that there were armed Jews and they lost and it did not faze the Nazis in the least. Also, Jesus warned what would happen to weak communities if the rise up in arms against Rome. How can right wing Christians forget that example?

Another trick question? The bible is there to be pounded and to be used to beat up others. Actually reading the thing is totally out of the question.

10 Destro  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:54:43pm

re: #7 EPR-radar

These points were also valid in the Jim Crow era —- I’m sure blacks who owned guns had as much to fear from the KKK and other white mob violence as blacks who were unarmed.

In fact, by the time one is seriously considering a heavily armed citizen vs. a mob, civilization is a distant memory. The fact that this fantasy is front and center for wingnuts is a giant tell on their views of modern US society.

Blacks did own arms in the South during Jim Crow - for hunting, etc. But if they shot up a white man the man and probably his whole family would be targeted for death. Also, I want to thank Blacks for non-violent resistance against the evil the endured.

America would be a mess if the Black Southern population rose up and carried out a long term “Sandinista” like resistance against white rule.

11 EPR-radar  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 6:57:23pm

re: #10 Destro

Good points. In fact, an open carry by a black person in an unusual location (e.g., a department store) would almost certainly have been viewed as a fatal case of being “uppity” in the Jim Crow south.

12 jaunte  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 7:06:52pm

re: #11 EPR-radar

Probably wouldn’t go over well this week, either.

13 EPR-radar  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 7:11:09pm

re: #12 jaunte

Probably wouldn’t go over well this week, either.

Too true.

In fact, I made a tongue in cheek proposal the other day of getting gun control on the table by having black and brown people do some legal open carrying.

Problem is, this would get people killed and fuel the race war fantasies of the RW nuts.

14 celticdragon  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 7:40:53pm

re: #5 Skip Intro

There are plenty of examples of how the Nazis responded to partisan attacks. A typical ratio was 10 to 100 dead for every Nazi shot or killed. Important Nazi deaths would require the massacre of an entire village or town, with everyone in it being killed, and the total destruction of the town.

Bands of armed Jews would have been faced with the burning of entire ghettos with everyone in them had they tried armed resistance. Is it really necessary to remind people that it took the combined military forces of the industrialized world five years to overcome the Germans?

It should be kept in mind that Jews after the war actually took the view that they would be armed and not permit anybody to get a second chance at them.

They might not have been able to stop the Holocaust the first time around, but they sure as hell made certain that they would be armed to the teeth after that. Note the armed Jewish partisans in post WW II British Palestine.

Also, German reprisals did not significantly deter the French Resistance or partisan fighting in the Ukraine, Norway or the Netherlands.

15 celticdragon  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 7:42:45pm

re: #13 EPR-radar

Too true.

In fact, I made a tongue in cheek proposal the other day of getting gun control on the table by having black and brown people do some legal open carrying.

Problem is, this would get people killed and fuel the race war fantasies of the RW nuts.

There are a number of NRA members who have actually advocated this. They point out (with some historical justification) that many gun control laws were specifically aimed at disarming minorities.

16 Destro  Sat, Jan 19, 2013 8:07:19pm

re: #14 celticdragon

It should be kept in mind that Jews after the war actually took the view that they would be armed and not permit anybody to get a second chance at them.

And that would have stopped Hitler and his Nazis (who enjoyed armed fighting in the streets) how?

And how is that relevant to American politics? What kind of American thinks his fellow Americans are planning to genocide him and his kind here?

17 Romantic Heretic  Sun, Jan 20, 2013 4:10:04am

re: #14 celticdragon

Also, German reprisals did not significantly deter the French Resistance or partisan fighting in the Ukraine, Norway or the Netherlands.

True, but they were backed and organized by the Allies, and there is no way they could have defeated the Nazis.

As an example look at what happened to resistance to the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe during the Cold War. Brutally and successfully repressed for decades. Only once the Soviet Union became too weak to stop them did groups like Solidarity survive and thrive.


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